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Concord Response Time

Author
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-02-14 15:59:17 UTC
admiral root wrote:

...
My bait orca toon has a similar fit to you, plus a reinforced bulkhead and trimarks. I'm around the 240k EHP mark, so yes, there is something to get it higher than 176k.

Additionally a fleet booster with Warfare links giving armor and resists boosts can push this even higher.
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-02-14 16:02:50 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

230k / 8,016 = 29 catalysts needed to kill it.
29 catalysts = 58 million isk.


And you don't think having 29 characters in contrast to having one character should be a steep advantage? This is a multiplayer game, and ganking is working as intended.
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#23 - 2014-02-14 16:20:54 UTC
OP seems to think catalysts ignore resists on their targets.
Serene Repose
#24 - 2014-02-14 16:27:16 UTC
Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!

When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.

When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.

Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.

Thenk yew beddy much.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-02-14 16:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Serene Repose wrote:
Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!

When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.

When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.

Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.

Thenk yew beddy much.
You imply that people are ants only capable of doing one thing and one thing only. People have and can create mining and industry alts if they need to. You and thousand others could stop and all that would happen is that others take your place... and hopefully these others are people who don't play victims... unlike you and your kind.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#26 - 2014-02-14 16:44:00 UTC
If we are ISK-tanking, I'd just like to point out that there is a single10,000,000 ISK purchase that will protect ALL your ships from a significant portion of the ganking population.

Of course, you have to use it right.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Vyl Vit
#27 - 2014-02-14 16:46:54 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!

When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.

When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.

Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.

Thenk yew beddy much.
You imply that people are ants only capable of doing one thing and one thing only. People have and can create mining and industry alts if they need to. You and thousand others could stop and all that would happen is that others take your place... and hopefully these others are people who don't play victims... unlike you and your kind.
Frankly, I see no such implication, and only see you mischaracterizing what was said. The only reason for this that makes sense is "your kind" is a ganker afraid Serene's idea would work, and YOU'D have to stop being the ant and find something ELSE to do.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-02-14 16:47:06 UTC
Confirming that if I and 28 of my friends do the logistics to get all those ships and our sorry -10 asses to hisec and get a scout to scan and give us warpins that you should totally be able to tank that ****.

Isk tanking is bad and you should feel bad OP.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-02-14 16:50:53 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.

230k / 8,016 = 29 catalysts needed to kill it.
29 catalysts = 58 million isk.

So it would cost a suicide squad 58 million isk to take down a ship worth over 500 million isk assuming nothing in the the cargohold.
Yes? That's balance for you: 29 people beats 1. Nothing strange about that. If anything, it would be hilariously imbalanced if this wasn't the case.

Quote:
To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this.
Cost is not a balancing factor.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#30 - 2014-02-14 17:00:58 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catalyst fits
Those Catalysts should have a Small Hybrid Aerator I and a Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I fitted, they're cheap and they buff the DPS by around 9% when used.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-02-14 17:02:33 UTC
WASPY69 wrote:
OP lost his/her Orca and this is now a stealth "nerf destroyers, buff Orcas" thread.

Quite the opposite actually, I was simply doing some risk calculation as before I had been estimating the risk based simply on Tornado alpha when hauling. It seems my estimates were way out though and now thinking back I feel lucky I wasn't ganked many time before as it surely would have been profitable for the gankers to do so.

In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.

My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec. Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million.

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-02-14 17:04:22 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catalyst fits
Those Catalysts should have a Small Hybrid Aerator I and a Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I fitted, they're cheap and they buff the DPS by around 9% when used.

Good point. And I actually forgot to put the overheating bonus on the EFT numbers also.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2014-02-14 17:08:36 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Chatelier's_principle

Quote:
Any change in status quo prompts an opposing reaction in the responding system.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#34 - 2014-02-14 17:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Medalyn Isis wrote:
In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.
But that's just it: there's no imbalance to balance out. If anything, CONCORD is a bit too quick at the moment, as demonstrated by the complexity and co-ordination required for something as seemingly trivial as a suicide gank.

Quote:
My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec.
God no. The very restrictive cargo hold of blockade runners is there to balance out the massive advantage they have over… well… everything, really. The transport ships are already viable, just not as bulk haulers.

Quote:
Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million.
So? Both 10 and 6 is more than 1. That's no reason to change anything. If you apply even a minute fraction of the coordination needed for the gank to the task of transporting your goods, the gank becomes pretty much completely impossible.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#35 - 2014-02-14 17:18:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.
But that's just it: there's no imbalance to balance out. If anything, CONCORD is a bit too quick at the moment, as demonstrated by the complexity and co-ordination required for something as seemingly trivial as a suicide gank.

Quote:
My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec.
God no. The very restrictive cargo hold of blockade runners is there to balance out the massive advantage they have over… well… everything, really. The transport ships are already viable, just not as bulk haulers.

Quote:
Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million.
So? Both 10 and 6 is more than 1. That's no reason to change anything.

I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. I would probably recommend the Talos though instead of a catalyst for most heavy ships as Emma mentioned, this is simply because it is much easier as you only need a few of them to take out most ships.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#36 - 2014-02-14 17:22:48 UTC

29 catalysts should be able to destroy your orca..... even if it is tanked fit.

Think about how much their efforts are worth! To get 30 people together, hunting and ready to suicide attack a ship takes time and effort. Their ships might cost 60m isk, but what are they going to get for their efforts?


If they are looking for profit: 30 people, paid 20m a piece = 600m. With a 50% drop rate, you need to have >1b isk in loot in the freighter to make it worth their time.

If they are attacking you for fun, you must have done something to spark that much of a coordinated attack on your ship.

Realize, in EvE, sometimes you just lose your ship. Someone bigger, better organized, and prepared will occasionally destroy your stuff. Deal with it.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#37 - 2014-02-14 17:25:10 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.
But that's just it: there's no imbalance to balance out. If anything, CONCORD is a bit too quick at the moment, as demonstrated by the complexity and co-ordination required for something as seemingly trivial as a suicide gank.

Quote:
My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec.
God no. The very restrictive cargo hold of blockade runners is there to balance out the massive advantage they have over… well… everything, really. The transport ships are already viable, just not as bulk haulers.

Quote:
Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million.
So? Both 10 and 6 is more than 1. That's no reason to change anything.

I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker. I would probably recommend the Talos though instead of a catalyst for most heavy ships as Emma mentioned, this is simply because it is much easier as you only need a few of them to take out most ships.


If it is so profitable, get some friends together and go do it. My limited understanding (since I don't Suicide gank), is that it takes a decent amount of time and effort to gather enough suicide gankers to take out Orca's and Freighters. This is also why players utilize brutix & Talos gangs to help minimize the efforts needed to accomplish the attack!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2014-02-14 17:28:56 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker.
It it was really profitable, it would be very popular and you'd see a lot of it. Instead, it's very rare and only a select few (highly organised) groups engage in it.

That rather suggests that either your numbers are wrong somewhere, or they're simply not telling the whole truth.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-02-14 18:16:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker.
It it was really profitable, it would be very popular and you'd see a lot of it. Instead, it's very rare and only a select few (highly organised) groups engage in it.

That rather suggests that either your numbers are wrong somewhere, or they're simply not telling the whole truth.

My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors. Also the data on Concord Response time was taken from your article. Obviously the end results should be taken with a fair margin for error, given that all the ships will not be in optimal, and resists will not always be equally balanced. Also my numbers did not include overheating or rigs.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#40 - 2014-02-14 18:24:40 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm not going to argue about balance, but all I can say is I'm looking here at the numbers right now and it looks very profitable to be a suicide ganker.
It it was really profitable, it would be very popular and you'd see a lot of it. Instead, it's very rare and only a select few (highly organised) groups engage in it.

That rather suggests that either your numbers are wrong somewhere, or they're simply not telling the whole truth.

My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors. Also the data on Concord Response time was taken from your article. Obviously the end results should be taken with a fair margin for error, given that all the ships will not be in optimal, and resists will not always be equally balanced. Also my numbers did not include overheating or rigs.


When looking at how profitable something in game is, most players look at isk/hr. This is a measure of the efforts involved in making that isk, and there is generally a lot of effort involved in setting up a 30 man gank squad.