Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm reluctantly throwing in the towel on the rapid launchers. While the ammunition increase and reload reduction is an improvement, they're still not "fun" to use. In PvE actual damage is a fraction of paper or stated DPS, primarily because unless you're at point-blank range you're losing probably upwards of 25% of your ammunition to wasted volleys with the high rate of fire. The long reload and inability to swap ammunition is simply a tactical nightmare in PvP, which limits applications to either ganking small ships or as part of roving gangs. Solo PvP has been effectively eliminated as an option...

In addition, the higher fitting requirements now mean that in addition to taking a huge DPS hit over the original version - ships have less tank to work with. So it's actually a double-nerf... Lasers are instantaneous, hybrids have a 5-second reload - and while projectiles are 10-seconds - their ammunition also delivers up to 3 damage types.

This experiment has run its course, and I think it's time to come clean and just admit that this was perhaps a better idea in theory than in practice.

Return the rapid light and rapid heavy launchers to the original/proposed versions.

this was the entire reason a flat out nerf would have been better, instead they give us an OP burst mechanic that's not even fun to use.



pretty much.

How about you change it back to the way it was before and call it a day. No need to over think it.

Well the main complaint has been the reload time making reacting to a changing fight frustratingly difficult and unfun. Rise's last post has essentially said 'No, we do not want you reloading in combat to be able to react to things.' Rise can feel free to correct that if he likes, but I get the feeling that will be the only real answer we are going to get on the matter. At least we finally got an answer, even if it isn't really going to help the rapid launcher problem.

So unless people just stop trying to make them work and wait for CCP to rebalance based on metrics again I don't see any changes happening.

The overall answer to medium missiles right now, train HML for PVE, anything else is optional.


RIP medium missile platforms

If he's stable, that's actually a decent fit, assuming he has the money to spend on tinkering with concept HACs like that. He'd have the range and speed to deny engagements and leave them if they're unfavorable. Don't trash concept fits unless the fit itself falls short of its intent.
Don't blame pilot error, and certainly don't do KM shaming on a forum to discredit someone's legitimate and very reasonable concerns; it shows you lack constructive ideas yourself...

I die a lot, what can I say…?

One of the biggest challenges with RLMLs is that light missiles have a low base velocity, so while it seems like the Cerberus would have pretty good range - half of that is extended flight time which really doesn't help that much (you need HAC V to get the full +50% missile velocity bonus). I had two engagements against an Incursus where I was unable to kill it with RLMLs despite a scram, web and exploiting the weakest resistance. 35 seconds is still an eternity in PvP situations, and one of the indirect consequences is extending an engagement just long enough for enemy reinforcements to arrive.

Too many pages to read everything, and I do not have much time to forums so this will be my two bits on the subject.

Starting with missiles in general:

The advantage other weapons have is switching does give a tactical advantage as the situation changes. Ability to switch range, and with projectiles, switch damage. Drone boats switch to more tactical drones as well.

10 second reload timer, it isn't bad. As a long time missile pilot, I have gotten fairly good at predicting how damage will land, and de-activating to switch targets before final volley lands and next one fires off. I didn't quite get the insane reload on RMLs though. Essentially, they make a larger hull have the combat effectiveness of in between sizes. More damage than their smaller class, but better hits than their own size class.

Is this not any different than the dual weapons? Do the dual heavy pulse lasers have a 40 second reload time because they can hit frigates and fast cruisers at 10km if fit effectively? I change projectile ammo as the target changes. For slower rate damage, eg capitals, I use my one type for shields, then switch when timely for armor to maximize my damage.....

Now, the fact that these bonuses are limited to certain missiles and only a few basic ships get the RML bonus. I sorta get it. Do not want heavies to overpower cruise missiles. Indeed, a navy raven with a full loadout of rapid heavy missile launchers would devastate a cruiser. But it really would be meh against larger ships. Wow, no different than using the smaller barrels on a battleship :s

Flight time bonuses. It has been seen here many times in my glance, what a useless bonus, I agree with. Other ship bonuses are effective in their entirety. Allowing application of multifrequency from further away, example. For missile ships, the flight time bonus is useless plain and simple unless you are out beyond the base max range. Pretty sad. All flight time should be relplaced with velocity. It reminds me of the old cap reduction only bonus for energy turrets on amarr ships back in the day. It was better to fit projectiles which used no cap.

As for the RMLs, what to do about them.... Well, I guess it comes down to what is broken. With the crazy reload, you are saying you want a battleship to be weaker than a drake. Plain and simple. Navy drake>Navy raven, something is a bit wrong. The missile advantage is still that it is more immune to ewar. Best idea that I like is a normal reload timer of 10 seconds, with a longer swap for damage type. Makes sense because you have to pull missiles out, then put back in.

What if you make the reload menu layered? You have the option to reload/change/change to full at the first layer then the ammo type at the second.

You could also integrate the radial menu for that. Should be good enough for missiles. Other weapon types.. not that much,as they have more than 8 types of charges (8 standard + 2 advanced). Oh wait... there's faction ammo then...

This still doesn't address the actual issue of DPS, which is the heart of the problem:

Tengu (5x RLML) … 502.5 DPS » 271.1 DPS (actual)
Tengu (5x HML) … 426.3 DPS » 400.9 DPS (actual)
Tengu (5x HAML) … 593.1 DPS » 553.4 DPS (actual)

Caracal (5x RLML) … 335 DPS » 195.8 DPS (actual)
Caracal (5x HML) … 284.2 DPS » 270.0 DPS (actual)
Caracal (5x HAML) … 395.4 DPS » 373.1 DPS (actual)

On paper, RLMLs are only marginally better than HMLs. In reality, HMLs are 45% better and HAMs are twice as effective. So what happens if we simply drop the reload/swap time on RLMLs to 10 seconds:

Tengu (5x RLML) … 502.5 DPS » 404.0 DPS (actual), with a 42km range
Carcal (5x RLML) … 335 DPS » 278.4 DPS (actual)

It basically puts RLMLs on par with RHMLs in terms of raw damage, with 1/2 to 2/3s the effective range. Light missiles are also slower than heavy missiles, and both are still overshadowed by HAMLs.