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Dev blog: Insights into 2013 production and destruction

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-02-06 20:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
jonnykefka wrote:
scimichar wrote:
Quote:
No system names below 0.5 are shown in the production part :)


Not having a name for systems below 0.5 because they don't make much not really something to be smiling about. There should be large circles in low/null.


Not an issue of size, but of security. "Oh, there's a big production ball in this particular system in Derilek! Gee, wonder what the Goons are up to there!" kind of thing. I suspect some WH industrialists would similarly not be pleased with having their J-sig outed.

But yes, the dominance of hisec production is mildly depressing.


I don't get why people always harp on this.

It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?

How about the middle of the Arctic?

No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Dogs
Triumvirate.
#22 - 2014-02-06 20:02:23 UTC
We're just over a month into 2014 and B-R blows Jita out the water already for destruction :)
captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-02-06 20:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: captain foivos
Maybe if highsec didn't have a thousand manufacturing slots in each of the 10 stations in every system that cost pocket change to run, nullsec might not be populated only by the desperate industrialists or those in the supercapital and import/export business.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-02-06 20:22:40 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Maybe if highsec didn't have a thousand manufacturing slots in each of the 10 stations in every system that cost pocket change to run, nullsec might not be populated only by the desperate industrialists or those in the supercapital and import/export business.


In another thread we debunked this hard.

Basically, if all of nullsec was populated with manufacturing stations, it would have something like 10x the production capacity of highsec.

It's a case of people complaining that they haven't utilized the sandbox or do not want to.

The tools exist to do exactly what you say -- people just don't use them because nobody likes to build cars in Somalia or the Arctic.

It's really not all that complicated.
TornSoul
BIG
#25 - 2014-02-06 20:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: TornSoul
A quick random collection of numbers that came to mind as "interesting":

Total 2013 destruction : 476.5 Trillion ISK

The 2014 B-R5RB Battle (11T ISK) :
- 8.4 days worth of total EVE universe destruction in 2013 (2.4% of total)
- 1.1 years of total Jita destruction (Jita is a crazy place!)

Jita :
- 2% of total universe destruction (Jita is a crazy place!)
- It takes the 1,948 safest places in EVE (25.3% of EVE) to surpass the destruction in Jita
- 2.8 times as destructive as the 2nd most (Amarr)


Polaris: Only system with Zero destruction what so ever (Polaris is a boring place!)
- and btw not reachable by mere mortals.
- and is probably there by mistake - as it seems Jove space has in fact been excluded.

Safest (actually reachable) 2013 system : O9K-FT (The Kalevala Expanse) with just 56.3M ISK worth destroyed.


Top 20 of systems (0.2% of all systems) has 10% of all destruction.
Top 462 systems (6% of all systems) has 50% of all destruction.


High-sec (14.3% of systems) : 27.8% of all destruction - 199.8B ISK/system
Low-sec (10.4% of systems) : 25.8% of all destruction - 153.1B ISK/system
Null-sec (42.8% of systems) : 36.9% of all destruction - 53.4 B ISK/system
WH-space (32.4% of systems) : 9.5% of all destruction - 18.1 B ISK/system
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#26 - 2014-02-06 20:25:41 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Maybe if highsec didn't have a thousand manufacturing slots in each of the 10 stations in every system that cost pocket change to run, nullsec might not be populated only by the desperate industrialists or those in the supercapital and import/export business.

Does that means all null sec manufacturing slots are used extensively even if there is not much of them Question

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-02-06 20:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
It Is clear that EVE industry is not what we should expect it to be, It is so poor designed at the moment that it only survives in a sick NPC protected and non-player controlled space.

It is not the first time that you will hear it REVAMP POS and REVAMP INDUSTRY !!!!!

You can't have production without POS and you can't have industry in a system that uses BPO like in the 60's

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=143764&find=unread

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=305381&find=unread

In these topics we have a way to improve the game without making nullsec safe, and give control to the players.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
stoicfaux
#28 - 2014-02-06 20:26:45 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

I don't get why people always harp on this.

It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?

How about the middle of the Arctic?

No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.

Exactly. So if it was practical to perform large scale industry in null, then the implication would be that null can be made safe. Really safe. As in Empire level safe.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-02-06 20:35:30 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
jonnykefka wrote:
scimichar wrote:
Quote:
No system names below 0.5 are shown in the production part :)


Not having a name for systems below 0.5 because they don't make much not really something to be smiling about. There should be large circles in low/null.


Not an issue of size, but of security. "Oh, there's a big production ball in this particular system in Derilek! Gee, wonder what the Goons are up to there!" kind of thing. I suspect some WH industrialists would similarly not be pleased with having their J-sig outed.

But yes, the dominance of hisec production is mildly depressing.


I don't get why people always harp on this.

It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?

How about the middle of the Arctic?

No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.

Why not? It would makes sense from a game balance perspective and common sense perspective. You can develop less developed areas if you invest heavily in them and the costs should certainly be cheaper then in the more developed areas. The game already includes infrastructure and empire building, but the actual math doesn't work and will never work until highsec NPC subsidized industry is changed. It doesn't need to be a direct nerf in every respect. Manufacturing in highly developed areas could have some advantages besides the obvious security and distance to markets, but other areas should provide tangible benefits in industrial production, that highsec NPC facilities can't compete with.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#30 - 2014-02-06 20:54:20 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?


This much production only happens in hi sec because you can have the goods from Jita into the hands of your capsuleer minions in one or two jumps.

Imagine if we didn't have massive container ships and bulk haulers capable of crossing oceans in days, would there be more economic pressure to put factories closer to the place of consumption?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
TornSoul
BIG
#31 - 2014-02-06 21:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: TornSoul
Mara Rinn wrote:

This much production only happens in hi sec because you can have the goods from Jita into the hands of your capsuleer minions in one or two jumps.


No, it's actually because you within a few jumps can buy all the minerals - especially low end - (and other stuff) that you NEED for production.

There are SO many that mine in empire (all within those few jumps of a place to sell it), that the supply of minerals will always vastly outstrip the supply in some random null-sec system.
And none of those miners are ever going to venture out to null-sec to try and sell their minerals (they'd get shot down on the way, and if not, they couldn't dock to sell anyhow)

To do null-sec production (on large scales) you need to IMPORT minerals - Which is a BIG pain in the butt.
- Hence the "invention" of mineral compression - Which also means that things are more expensive to produce (compression is not loss-less) (one more reason to do it in high-sec instead - Especially on low-profit items)

And null-sec's are in general not going to "waste time" mining low-ends, when there are way more profitable ways of making ISK - Hence the producers can't get what they need for production.

Mara Rinn wrote:

Imagine if we didn't have massive container ships and bulk haulers capable of crossing oceans in days, would there be more economic pressure to put factories closer to the place of consumption?

As per the above - This would simply ensure that *even less* null-sec production would take place.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-02-06 21:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Mara Rinn wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?


This much production only happens in hi sec because you can have the goods from Jita into the hands of your capsuleer minions in one or two jumps.

Imagine if we didn't have massive container ships and bulk haulers capable of crossing oceans in days, would there be more economic pressure to put factories closer to the place of consumption?


You're talking about the trade hub aspect. Yes. That is one of the MANY reasons.

Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Why not?


Because as a car producer it's your job to make cars cheaply and sell them. If you live in the arctic that's going to be hard and you're going to be disadvantaged no matter how you slice it.


Destination SkillQueue wrote:
It would makes sense from a game balance perspective and common sense perspective. .


I have balance concerns as well. For instance, why are so many diamonds in Africa? Why can't the diamond mine be right here, right next to my house?

And why does it cost so much money to ship raw materials and capital to the Arctic? It should be free. Then my Arctic Car Production Facility would be more feasible.

Why don't more people live there? Particularly unemployed ones who want to do factory work. Fix please.

There might also be a balance problem with shipping the cars from the Arctic because I might not have enough people to sell cars to way out here. Hrm.
CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2014-02-06 21:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Quant
Just to keep this thread in sync with reddit

I've made a few forks of the graph on JSFiddle by requests... I see where this is going so I think I'll make due with these for now Big smile


EVE Online destruction 2014 to date

EVE Online ships destroyed 2014 to date

EVE Online ships destroyed in 2013


Oh and nice stats Big smile :
TornSoul wrote:
A quick random collection of numbers that came to mind as "interesting":

Total 2013 destruction : 476.5 Trillion ISK

The 2014 B-R5RB Battle (11T ISK) :
- 8.4 days worth of total EVE universe destruction in 2013 (2.4% of total)
- 1.1 years of total Jita destruction (Jita is a crazy place!)

Jita :
- 2% of total universe destruction (Jita is a crazy place!)
- It takes the 1,948 safest places in EVE (25.3% of EVE) to surpass the destruction in Jita
- 2.8 times as destructive as the 2nd most (Amarr)


Polaris: Only system with Zero destruction what so ever (Polaris is a boring place!)
- and btw not reachable by mere mortals.
- and is probably there by mistake - as it seems Jove space has in fact been excluded.

Safest (actually reachable) 2013 system : O9K-FT (The Kalevala Expanse) with just 56.3M ISK worth destroyed.


Top 20 of systems (0.2% of all systems) has 10% of all destruction.
Top 462 systems (6% of all systems) has 50% of all destruction.


High-sec (14.3% of systems) : 27.8% of all destruction - 199.8B ISK/system
Low-sec (10.4% of systems) : 25.8% of all destruction - 153.1B ISK/system
Null-sec (42.8% of systems) : 36.9% of all destruction - 53.4 B ISK/system
WH-space (32.4% of systems) : 9.5% of all destruction - 18.1 B ISK/system
TornSoul
BIG
#34 - 2014-02-06 21:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: TornSoul
ROFL - That B-R5RB blob Big smile

(and you still have Polaris in there Bear )
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2014-02-06 21:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Arline Kley
Very pretty CCP Quant!

The 2014 destruction one reminds me of a cell being invadeded...

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#36 - 2014-02-06 22:14:24 UTC
A question on production stats. Where something is produced in multiple stages (e.g. one person produces Magnetometric Sensor Clusters then another person uses those as precursors to build an Oneiros), is that considered two acts of production? If so that will distort the figures somewhat.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#37 - 2014-02-06 22:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
A question on production stats. Where something is produced in multiple stages (e.g. one person produces Magnetometric Sensor Clusters then another person uses those as precursors to build an Oneiros), is that considered two acts of production? If so that will distort the figures somewhat.

From the blog:
CCP Quant wrote:
A few important things I'd like to note:
[...]
* Production values are end products, not components.
[...]
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#38 - 2014-02-06 23:06:33 UTC
What we really need back is Dr Eyjo's QENs and any additional occasional insights he would like to give us. Both EVE Online & DUST514 have their own economists and I believe most capsuleers & mercs would appreciate hearing from them not only at Fanfest but in devblogs and maybe even on the official forums.

Occasionally we hear about Dr Eyjo talking to the international press about how the economy of New Eden works but it would be nice for him to 'talk' to us too maybe ?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Sand Shardani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-02-06 23:20:09 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
What we really need back is Dr Eyjo's QENs and any additional occasional insights he would like to give us. Both EVE Online & DUST514 have their own economists and I believe most capsuleers & mercs would appreciate hearing from them not only at Fanfest but in devblogs and maybe even on the official forums.

Occasionally we hear about Dr Eyjo talking to the international press about how the economy of New Eden works but it would be nice for him to 'talk' to us too maybe ?



Last I heard is they stopped the reports as they gave an unfair advantage to some.

On topic... I heart these graphs.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#40 - 2014-02-06 23:25:36 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

I don't get why people always harp on this.

It's the job of a producer to produce as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. That happens in highsec and I just don't see a problem with it.

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?

How about the middle of the Arctic?

No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.

Exactly. So if it was practical to perform large scale industry in null, then the implication would be that null can be made safe. Really safe. As in Empire level safe.


It is coming.
The biggest reason that not as much industry is done in null is because the ISK/ hour in other null sec opportunities far outstrips manufacturing. People manufacture in high sec because it is not only marginally safer, but because the ISK/ hour for other high options suck.

Why would someone in null spend 2 hours massaging spreadsheets, setting up production lines, and hauling to make say, 200M, when they can grab a BS and make 300M with zero thought and effort?

The problem is not high sec. The problem is null sec ISK in other avenues is too lucrative.

Now, that being said, I am sure part of the upcoming nerfs to high sec will be an huge hammering in industrial capabilities. By crushing supply of finished products, particularly T2 items, coming from high sec, the value per hour of mfg/ hour, anywhere, will go up.

It will just be too bad that a ton of high sec industrialists will be forced out of business with a huge reduction in available mfg slots. Oh well, CCP must keep null sec happy at all costs.