These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#461 - 2014-02-03 18:52:44 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Yet you arent concerned that if I fire a missile from my ship that is going 1000 m/s, the missile doesnt go 1000m/s faster than it would if I fired it from rest?
cheap shot dude, Destiny is more than 10 years old and has to handle up to 4k pilots + 20k drones...

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2014-02-03 19:02:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


I understand the implications on the usability, but I think you missed a bit on my proposal.

My idea is that you ALWAYS reload all missiles. But the time is dependent of how many you already have.

20 missiles in bay. Reload is then set to minimum time ( could be the old 10 seconds). You get a full set of your new type of missiles.

10 missiles in bay. Then you have half your load, therefore your time must be half the penalty (35-10)/2+10 = 22.8 seconds.

0 missiles in bay. 35 seconds.

That regardless if you are reloading same ammo, or loading a new ammo.

Result is.. if you have full ammo and want to reload before a fight you have exact old behavior of missiles. But if your missiels are empty or almost empty you still pay the full time.


Also this approach shares all the advantages of your idea about the timer.


This please. Also implement for cap boosters and ancillary reppers.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#463 - 2014-02-03 19:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Taranogas 3rd wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Nicen Jehr wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Fixing this is easy. It takes 0 seconds to switch ammo types at the same charge count. This would be a good reason to use rapid launchers, and counterpoints the large full reload.
...
It's like putting in a damaged laser crystal.
I gotta disagree from a common sense standpoint (even if it would probably make RLML mroe fun). Swapping laser crystals is literally 'take eight chunks of crystal and drop them in the slot' but if it takes your crew/ship 35 seconds to get all the missiles in the tubes, how would it make sense for them to INSTANTLY replace them with entirely different missiles?


Nanites. Or whatever. Lore shouldnt dictate game balance.


i'm just picky so..

not always, but some things just don't make sense even for a virtual world :p comes a time where you **** things up so bad that it doesn't even make the slightest sense and your brain starts hurting every time a RLML fires a volley P

Look at all the weapon systems, and see that they do fit in with their "lore" and respective factions, lasers being highly accurate (good optimal) , blasters being like shotguns, projectiles old worn out weapons but still viable by tickling your opponent to death, now imagine if projectiles used capacitor and lasers didn't and everything between them switched except their names/models respectively, sure you could make it work, but it doesn't fit that much.

When you cross that line (like adding arbitrary rules to specific weapon systems just to make a version viable) it starts bordering on; wtf are you doing.


Great, my response got deleted.

It's not an arbitrary rule, it's a weapon system advantage. Lasers reload instantly, as an advantage. Rapid launchers should switch ammo types easily, since being confined to a set of 30 or so missiles before a long reload time should leave you with your choice of damage type for that smaller interval.

It makes sense lore-wise since the launcher can logically replace warheads extremely quickly from a cache while the larger rockets take a set amount of time to queue up.

Explaining it would be as simple as "The rapid launcher is a launcher type that changes ammo types instantly but takes 35 seconds to reload a full set of ammo."

If people can understand the mechanic of taking 35 seconds to reload, they can understand the mechanic of switching ammo types.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#464 - 2014-02-03 19:40:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.



Oh, its a miracle, jesus responds to his followers
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#465 - 2014-02-03 19:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Rise wrote:
I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.

My original suggestion (since echoed) was to make ammunition swaps instantaneous - but restrict the amount replaced to what's currently loaded, ie: you have 10 rounds loaded - a swap only yields 10 rounds of the new type. And can we make this a sticky again please?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
MiliasColds
Strategic Incompetence
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#466 - 2014-02-03 20:10:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kynric wrote:
After playing with the module a bit I find that I both like and hate it. The ammo swap problem is the main issue I have with the current rlml. The ability to select a damage type is one if the defining traits for missiles and this feature makes it impractical to use that trait. The alternative (heavy missles) is poor enough to perhaps keep rlmls in play but that should not be interpreted as happiness with the rlml. Please consider fixing the ammo swap, if that were done the module woukd be in a much better place.



The best solution woudl be what one guy suggested. To reload full set of missiles.. 35 seconds. To replace 1 missile only (U used only 1 before reload) you spend 35/20 seconds... in other words.. time of reload linear to the ammount that need to be reloaded.


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


What about a reload is Ns if launcher is full, else Ms | M>N EG reloadign before firing the first set is cheaper than afterwards? so if you pick damage first then fire it's easier than reloading ammo for more DPS?
T'Khlau
Somnium Vita
#467 - 2014-02-03 20:52:43 UTC
Is it me or are CCP trying to emulate the autoloader tanks in WOT?
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#468 - 2014-02-03 21:08:06 UTC
Cut the clip size and the reload time by 2/3rds. So a rapid light has 6 charges, rapid heavy has 8 charges, reload's 13 seconds.

Yup it becomes a bursting missile firing system, since the reloads cut down to about.. oh 13 to 14 seconds, you can reload or change your damage type, and you are only 5 seconds longer than projectiles. Your clips smaller so you only fire for maybe. 20 seconds.

So about 20 seconds of uptime, 13 seconds of downtime.


Addresses the issue of reloads, addresses the issues of switching missiles without a new dropdown.

probably would have to address the rest of the missile systems also, as this post makes no concern towards balance.

Yaay!!!!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#469 - 2014-02-03 23:08:57 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Cut the clip size and the reload time by 2/3rds.

I can't truly express how much I hate this idea (sorry)...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#470 - 2014-02-04 00:33:56 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Cut the clip size and the reload time by 2/3rds. So a rapid light has 6 charges, rapid heavy has 8 charges, reload's 13 seconds.

Yup it becomes a bursting missile firing system, since the reloads cut down to about.. oh 13 to 14 seconds, you can reload or change your damage type, and you are only 5 seconds longer than projectiles. Your clips smaller so you only fire for maybe. 20 seconds.

So about 20 seconds of uptime, 13 seconds of downtime.


Addresses the issue of reloads, addresses the issues of switching missiles without a new dropdown.

probably would have to address the rest of the missile systems also, as this post makes no concern towards balance.



and makign it entirely useless because you cannto kill even a single frigate before you need to reload.. making absolutely ZERO situations where the burst damage is useful.


THe solution I posted after rise answeer, (he did not got right what i meant first time) is the best way to achieve what he wants and what we want at same time.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#471 - 2014-02-04 01:07:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


This does not fix the problem of swapping ammo types
Currently, RHML hold 25 missiles that once fired take 35 seconds to reload.
To do an ammo swap, if you have fired all 25 in the magazine will take you 70 seconds.
Yet if you only fire 24, stop firing, select new damage type, it will take 35 seconds to reload. If you fire 1 it will still take 35 seconds to reload.

What if - this has been suggested previously but I think is a great solution AND with new heat iterations on many modules should be relatively easy to implement.

RHML, loaded but un-fired - instant reload (for any chosen damage type)
Once fired, the module starts to build a reload timer (like overheating) the more rounds put through the launcher the longer the reload time. Actually overheating your launchers would not change reload times.
Fire 1 to 5 rounds - 5 second reload / ammo swap
6 to 10 - 10 seconds
11 to 15 - 15 seconds
16 to 20 - 20 seconds
21 to 25 - 35 seconds
Each reload timer reloads 25 missiles, so at each reload timer you have a full clip once reloaded..
I'm not recommending these times and only used them as a way to show how the mechanic could work. I'm sure someone could fine tune it.

The idea though is - the more rounds you fire, the longer it takes to reload.
No extra menus needed and once the reload style is added to the description of the launchers it is self explanatory.

**Personally I think 25 seconds would be the optimum reload time for a full clip**

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#472 - 2014-02-04 02:39:10 UTC
Am I alone in not being a huge fan of these convoluted mechanics? Just make it a 20-second reload/swap and let's pass Go and collect our $200 already….

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#473 - 2014-02-04 05:45:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


This doesn't solve the problem of reloading for Precision/Fury/FOF during combat, or if you've already aggressed and your timer hasn't run out yet. And I have to echo others that this would be adding an arbitrary rule to how the weapon works that most people won't know about, so you will definitely have to explain how the mechanic works.

If making varied reload times for different weapons, and swapping ammo types around is going to be a good experience, it needs a better UI than just right click menus on the turret/launcher. Especially if this "burst" design is going to be expanded to some of the gunnery turrets.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#474 - 2014-02-04 05:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
so now were in a spot where even rise agrees that a 10 seconds reload would be the best thing and that there's no easy way to fix it with the current mechanics - to me it seems like the old rapids were in golden place and that the first new iteration was the right way to go but since were stuck with iteration 2 mk2 i think the idea of a flat 20 seconds reload sounds resonable
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#475 - 2014-02-04 09:28:53 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


This doesn't solve the problem of reloading for Precision/Fury/FOF during combat, or if you've already aggressed and your timer hasn't run out yet. And I have to echo others that this would be adding an arbitrary rule to how the weapon works that most people won't know about, so you will definitely have to explain how the mechanic works.

If making varied reload times for different weapons, and swapping ammo types around is going to be a good experience, it needs a better UI than just right click menus on the turret/launcher. Especially if this "burst" design is going to be expanded to some of the gunnery turrets.



my proposal altough.. solves it....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2014-02-04 09:42:49 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ransu Asanari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.


This doesn't solve the problem of reloading for Precision/Fury/FOF during combat, or if you've already aggressed and your timer hasn't run out yet. And I have to echo others that this would be adding an arbitrary rule to how the weapon works that most people won't know about, so you will definitely have to explain how the mechanic works.

If making varied reload times for different weapons, and swapping ammo types around is going to be a good experience, it needs a better UI than just right click menus on the turret/launcher. Especially if this "burst" design is going to be expanded to some of the gunnery turrets.



my proposal altough.. solves it....


"Logic is futile" - the human race

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#477 - 2014-02-04 09:44:44 UTC
Some combat experience from being shot at by the new 1.1 rlml's yesterday.

Corpie & Me tackled a RLML caracal in a FW plex in a paper-thin (3.21K EHP+Small Ancil Repper/DCU/Nano/BCU) Maledictions.

Basically he couldn't kill us, the SAAR kept us alive through his salvo's and then whomever was hurt would warp off reloading the SAAR while the other kept point.
He managed to force us off when the SAAR's caused us cap problems, not because his damage was a credible thread to our paper-thin ceptors at any point.

Take from that what you will.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#478 - 2014-02-04 09:55:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


The big problem with this is that currently you have two options in the drop down, one for reloading the same and one for switching to a new type. If we did what you're talking about we would need three options, one for reloading current ammo to full, one for swapping to new kind of ammo but same amount of charges, and one for swapping to new type of ammo at max charges. We could do that, but it would add anywhere from one to several rows to the right click menu and would also probably be pretty confusing to a lot of users.

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works, but from the user perspective it's much cleaner. We wouldn't have to clog up any menus or make any new explanations about how the mechanic worked.

The most critical ammo swaps are going to be mid fight when you are already engaged in PvP but hitting a stacked resist, so the weapon timer won't work.
I think your three right click lines are the best option. Reload existing. Swap to new. Reload to new. By calling it swap vs reload people will work it out fast enough.

As for Kaeda, so you mean you took 2 T2's vs a single T1 who couldn't hold tackle on you but still chased you off? You had numbers and the mobility advantage and at the end of the day, he won.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#479 - 2014-02-04 10:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

As for Kaeda, so you mean you took 2 T2's vs a single T1 who couldn't hold tackle on you but still chased you off? You had numbers and the mobility advantage and at the end of the day, he won.


We took two t2 frigates, with less EHP by a margin then the average Assault Frigate vs. a T1 cruiser with a weapon system specifically meant to kill frigates. And yes we had a mobility advantage. The point is that at no point did his damage output pose a credible threat to us.

So here we have a cruiser with a weapon system that should kill frigates and the best it can do is force us of eventually through a flaw in the fit of the maledictions we were flying (not enough cap for an extended engagement) so not his threat as an anti-frigate ship, but a flaw in the frigates he was fighting forced a stalemate.

Previously (before the changes) we wouldn't even have considered engaging a rlml caracal, it went from being in place where it was the scariest thing ever for frigates to not even being a threat really if you know what you are doing. Currently the Caracal just forced us to disengage, if the same pilot had been flying a tanked normal light missile flycatcher or perhaps even a talwar or corax he would have been more dangerous to us, for it is the interruption in his damage on reloads that allows us to cope on the ancillary reppers, sustained damage would have made us unable to deal/engage at all.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#480 - 2014-02-04 11:04:24 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I would prefer if we could find something like making the reload time only 10 seconds unless you have a weapon timer. This exact solution doesn't work because of how NPC timer works


Well why not? Its not like if anyone was using RLML in PvE right now, and obviously fixing them for PvE without affecting PvP by tweaking their stats would be difficult.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart