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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#421 - 2014-02-01 20:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Missile-based shield hulls just tend to suck, period. It just goes to show that a previously great weapon system (RLML) can save a horrible hull like the Caracal.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#422 - 2014-02-01 20:43:50 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Missile-based shield hulls just tend to suck, period. It just goes to show that a previously great weapon system (RLML) can save a horrible hull like the Caracal.


You need almost max fitting and weapon skills, race hull level plus a few implants to even make the caracal a viable platform. Not to mention donate hours upon hours on eft, testing fits, ExTREMELY TIGHT FITS. Im talking about .3 cpu and 0Mw left. . It doesnt have the cpu or powergrid. 

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2014-02-01 21:34:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Missile-based shield hulls just tend to suck, period. It just goes to show that a previously great weapon system (RLML) can save a horrible hull like the Caracal.


None of the T1 cruiser hulls lend themselves to easy fitting options.

Many missile hulls manifestly do not suck at all. I understand the frustration of trying to mix tank and gank in a T1 cruiser hull, it's basically not possible (probably by design). But any T2 or battlecruiser can do it.

The numbers I see in EveHQ make me think that RLML is verging on overpowered again.

Proponents in this thread should be happy.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#424 - 2014-02-01 21:59:05 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Missile-based shield hulls just tend to suck, period. It just goes to show that a previously great weapon system (RLML) can save a horrible hull like the Caracal.


None of the T1 cruiser hulls lend themselves to easy fitting options.

Many missile hulls manifestly do not suck at all. I understand the frustration of trying to mix tank and gank in a T1 cruiser hull, it's basically not possible (probably by design). But any T2 or battlecruiser can do it.

The numbers I see in EveHQ make me think that RLML is verging on overpowered again.

Proponents in this thread should be happy.


I don't want to get bogged down in another missile thread right now, and I do give them credit for trying to tweak this the changes seem sensible, but RLML is always going to be a niche weapon now and by default that turns those hulls that rely on it into niche hulls as well... we didn't just use it out of preference some of us relied on it to make ships like the Caracal viable, because the alternatives were not fit for pvp. Like he said HAM Caracal is near impossible to fit without perfect missile and fitting skills, anything less and you have dreadful tank and damage application, and relatively low dps. I dont remember exactly and I haven't even bothered to undock for a fight in ages but the last time I tried to fit a HAM Caracal with my skills I think I was getting 11k ehp tank and even with expensive t1 faction missiles the dps wasn't good either.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#425 - 2014-02-02 03:04:39 UTC
We need a Khanid-Caldari armor-based class of missile ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#426 - 2014-02-02 05:01:51 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Missile-based shield hulls just tend to suck, period. It just goes to show that a previously great weapon system (RLML) can save a horrible hull like the Caracal.


None of the T1 cruiser hulls lend themselves to easy fitting options.

Many missile hulls manifestly do not suck at all. I understand the frustration of trying to mix tank and gank in a T1 cruiser hull, it's basically not possible (probably by design). But any T2 or battlecruiser can do it.

The numbers I see in EveHQ make me think that RLML is verging on overpowered again.

Proponents in this thread should be happy.
EveHq is a good indication on what you can and can't do.. Put your fits together with all 5's (looks good right?) Now switch it to actual skills - DPS drops EHP drops (doesn't looks so good now).

I presume by "any" you mean the Cerberus as it is the only T2 shield hull with RLML bonuses.

No Shield Battle cruiser has RLML bonuses.

I'd say that leaves VERY limited hulls for which RLML would be the optimal choice.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#427 - 2014-02-02 05:26:07 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I presume by "any" you mean the Cerberus as it is the only T2 shield hull with RLML bonuses.
No Shield Battle cruiser has RLML bonuses.

I'd say that leaves VERY limited hulls for which RLML would be the optimal choice.

It's certainly a short list, to be sure (and most only have a single light missile-related bonus):

Bellicose ... ✔
Caracal ... ✔
Caracal Navy ... ✔
Cerberus ... ✔
Gila ... ✔
Huginn ... ✔
Onyx ... ✔
Osprey Navy ... ✔
Tengu ... ✔
Sacrilege ... ✔
Scythe Fleet Issue ... ✔

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2014-02-02 09:35:50 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I presume by "any" you mean the Cerberus as it is the only T2 shield hull with RLML bonuses.
No Shield Battle cruiser has RLML bonuses.

I'd say that leaves VERY limited hulls for which RLML would be the optimal choice.

It's certainly a short list, to be sure (and most only have a single light missile-related bonus):

Bellicose ... ✔
Caracal ... ✔
Caracal Navy ... ✔
Cerberus ... ✔
Gila ... ✔
Huginn ... ✔
Onyx ... ✔
Osprey Navy ... ✔
Tengu ... ✔
Sacrilege ... ✔
Scythe Fleet Issue ... ✔


Couldn't have said it better myself. Gila is now an extremely capable ship. ASB, RLML, ogre II. Bring it on!

Fourteen Maken wrote:

I don't want to get bogged down in another missile thread right now, and I do give them credit for trying to tweak this the changes seem sensible, but RLML is always going to be a niche weapon now and by default that turns those hulls that rely on it into niche hulls as well... we didn't just use it out of preference some of us relied on it to make ships like the Caracal viable, because the alternatives were not fit for pvp. Like he said HAM Caracal is near impossible to fit without perfect missile and fitting skills, anything less and you have dreadful tank and damage application, and relatively low dps. I dont remember exactly and I haven't even bothered to undock for a fight in ages but the last time I tried to fit a HAM Caracal with my skills I think I was getting 11k ehp tank and even with expensive t1 faction missiles the dps wasn't good either.


You can't fit any T1 cruiser with both good damage and good tank. It's either or. As for skills, I do try not to fly a hull before I have it to skill level 5. Obviously "advanced weapon upgrades" to V is a very important skill also. That's Eve, not a given hull's fault.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#429 - 2014-02-02 11:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I presume by "any" you mean the Cerberus as it is the only T2 shield hull with RLML bonuses.
No Shield Battle cruiser has RLML bonuses.

I'd say that leaves VERY limited hulls for which RLML would be the optimal choice.

It's certainly a short list, to be sure (and most only have a single light missile-related bonus):

Bellicose ... ✔
Caracal ... ✔
Caracal Navy ... ✔
Cerberus ... ✔
Gila ... ✔
Huginn ... ✔
Onyx ... ✔
Osprey Navy ... ✔
Tengu ... ✔
Sacrilege ... ✔
Scythe Fleet Issue ... ✔


Couldn't have said it better myself. Gila is now an extremely capable ship. ASB, RLML, ogre II. Bring it on!



Not sure but didn't you specify T2 cruiser and battlecruiser. As the discussion I responded with was specifically "SHIELD MISSILE" (due to the response to Arthurs post "Missile based shield hulls tend to suck" , ok I missed the Hugin and Onyx (haven't seen an Onyx in so long forgot they had missile bonus), Tengu is a T3, Scarilege is Armour. The rest are faction and T1.


But by all means, if you want to change the whole context of the post - who am, I to interfere. Oh and as the Gila is a Drone Boat, missile bonus is a secondary weapon . fyi, Gila has always been good at what it does.

Mournful, could you explain how you see the light missile bonus on the Gila as being useful with Ogres? Imo, using Ogres the missile bonus to lights is no help at all, now an explosion velocity bonus might be very helpful or even in this case a Rof bonus.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#430 - 2014-02-02 17:38:00 UTC
Its not about max tank and gank on the caracal.

You cant really tank a caracal using hams.

for less isk you can fit a rail thorax that has 30k ehp and does 425 dps, 460 with t2 ammo. Compare that to a ham caracal that gets 15-18k ehp and does 300-350 dps with drones,. Plus thorax can fit web+scram+tc+ab or mwd. At best you can fit a scram and propmod on a caraca.l Rigs on a caracal are mostly split between cpu, powergrid and rigors. to get a tank that almost gets near that thorax (short a few thousand hp) youd have to use all 5 mid slots. No Propulsion, no point. no rigs, meaning you cant fit hams nor use their t2 ammo. Plus your sig will go up from 125 to like 300 and something. Built in shield resists suck. every shield module except for boosters, boost amps, and adaptive hardener is < every armor module..
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#431 - 2014-02-02 18:44:40 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I presume by "any" you mean the Cerberus as it is the only T2 shield hull with RLML bonuses.
No Shield Battle cruiser has RLML bonuses.

I'd say that leaves VERY limited hulls for which RLML would be the optimal choice.

It's certainly a short list, to be sure (and most only have a single light missile-related bonus):

Bellicose ... ✔
Caracal ... ✔
Caracal Navy ... ✔
Cerberus ... ✔
Gila ... ✔
Huginn ... ✔
Onyx ... ✔
Osprey Navy ... ✔
Tengu ... ✔
Sacrilege ... ✔
Scythe Fleet Issue ... ✔


Couldn't have said it better myself. Gila is now an extremely capable ship. ASB, RLML, ogre II. Bring it on!



Not sure but didn't you specify T2 cruiser and battlecruiser. As the discussion I responded with was specifically "SHIELD MISSILE" (due to the response to Arthurs post "Missile based shield hulls tend to suck" , ok I missed the Hugin and Onyx (haven't seen an Onyx in so long forgot they had missile bonus), Tengu is a T3, Scarilege is Armour. The rest are faction and T1.


But by all means, if you want to change the whole context of the post - who am, I to interfere. Oh and as the Gila is a Drone Boat, missile bonus is a secondary weapon . fyi, Gila has always been good at what it does.

Mournful, could you explain how you see the light missile bonus on the Gila as being useful with Ogres? Imo, using Ogres the missile bonus to lights is no help at all, now an explosion velocity bonus might be very helpful or even in this case a Rof bonus.


Users of the gila will know very well that this ship can carry enough variation of drones to be effective against any class of ship. Before the advent of rapid lights, it had only one weapon system capable of engaging frigates optimally. Now it can engage all classes of ship with full damage application.

The same is true of the rattlesnake with rapid heavies. It's now an extremely capable anti-cruiser powerhouse. I might even get one.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#432 - 2014-02-02 20:10:55 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Users of the gila will know very well that this ship can carry enough variation of drones to be effective against any class of ship. Before the advent of rapid lights, it had only one weapon system capable of engaging frigates optimally. Now it can engage all classes of ship with full damage application.

The same is true of the rattlesnake with rapid heavies. It's now an extremely capable anti-cruiser powerhouse. I might even get one.

Rapid heavy launchers are definitely the ticket on the Rattlesnake. I only wish battleships were better suited for solo play outside missions.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#433 - 2014-02-02 23:38:56 UTC
Bring back RLM to the way they were. Part of the reason why so many people are flocking to sentry ships is that the current state of RLM (and missiles in general) is abysmal. A 35s reload time is just putting lipstick on a pig.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#434 - 2014-02-03 00:44:09 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Bring back RLM to the way they were. Part of the reason why so many people are flocking to sentry ships is that the current state of RLM (and missiles in general) is abysmal. A 35s reload time is just putting lipstick on a pig.

Realistically, as this has been requested since pre-Rubicon - I just don't see it happening...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#435 - 2014-02-03 01:04:35 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
Bring back RLM to the way they were. Part of the reason why so many people are flocking to sentry ships is that the current state of RLM (and missiles in general) is abysmal. A 35s reload time is just putting lipstick on a pig.

Realistically, as this has been requested since pre-Rubicon - I just don't see it happening...



People @ CCP like their ASB weapons for some reason. Maybe it is the massive caldari hate present there. I'll be some of them refer to the caldari as the NPCing race. On the other hand this is probably just CCP having no idea what to do with missiles across the board.

yeah the higher dps on RLML's is nice, but honestly the 40 second reload time makes it feel more like a practical joke than a useful thing. Forget the caracal for a moment...the cerberus *should* put out 500 dps or so with any given weapons system and 600-700 dps or more with the HAM's. This would put it on par with the other hac's for dps who have a normal 5-10 sec reload time (or instant for amarr). But the fact that your dps is actually half that due to reload time means that it is bad.

I mean of course I'll change my tune if Artillery gets a 40 second reload time in exchange for a 3 round magazine and 30% more alpha. The crying would be amazing and heads would roll. But **** caldari apparently.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#436 - 2014-02-03 02:28:29 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
People @ CCP like their ASB weapons for some reason. Maybe it is the massive caldari hate present there. I'll be some of them refer to the caldari as the NPCing race. On the other hand this is probably just CCP having no idea what to do with missiles across the board.

yeah the higher dps on RLML's is nice, but honestly the 40 second reload time makes it feel more like a practical joke than a useful thing. Forget the caracal for a moment...the cerberus *should* put out 500 dps or so with any given weapons system and 600-700 dps or more with the HAM's. This would put it on par with the other hac's for dps who have a normal 5-10 sec reload time (or instant for amarr). But the fact that your dps is actually half that due to reload time means that it is bad.

I mean of course I'll change my tune if Artillery gets a 40 second reload time in exchange for a 3 round magazine and 30% more alpha. The crying would be amazing and heads would roll. But **** caldari apparently.

Missiles are no different than any other weapon system in that without enhancements damage application is not going to be optimal. For drones you have omnis and link augmenters and for gunnery you have passive tracking enhancers and active tracking computers. The problem isn't missiles - the problem is missiles on a shield hull.

With my Tengu I took on (not my choice) two interceptors, two frigates and a cruiser - and destroyed 4/5 enemy ships. Before anyone says well, that's a $300-$400m ship that I used - you'd have been hard-pressed just to deal with the interceptors with a Caracal - let alone everything else.

I'm not convinced that giving up tank on shield hulls is necessarily a bad thing because they have a larger signature radius to start with and even a cheap EM rig makes your opponents job easier. As missile players we have a tendency to run 3-4 ballistic modules when in reality we could (and should) probably be running a maximum of 2. One thing no one really considers is that the lower fitting requirements of RLMLs actually opens up realistic potential for armor tanking instead.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
S1euth
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#437 - 2014-02-03 04:14:02 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

None of the T1 cruiser hulls lend themselves to easy fitting


Indeed; I always thought the biggest nerf from RLM didn't come from the new launcher mechanics, but from the additional fitting requirements that were added. The lost EHP and utility from the new fitting requirements really bites.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#438 - 2014-02-03 05:00:53 UTC
S1euth wrote:
Indeed; I always thought the biggest nerf from RLM didn't come from the new launcher mechanics, but from the additional fitting requirements that were added. The lost EHP and utility from the new fitting requirements really bites.

To be sure. I think it had to be done otherwise you could potentially run a pair of these on a Hawk...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#439 - 2014-02-03 06:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincintius Agrippa
Justin Cody wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
Bring back RLM to the way they were. Part of the reason why so many people are flocking to sentry ships is that the current state of RLM (and missiles in general) is abysmal. A 35s reload time is just putting lipstick on a pig.

Realistically, as this has been requested since pre-Rubicon - I just don't see it happening...



People @ CCP like their ASB weapons for some reason. Maybe it is the massive caldari hate present there. I'll be some of them refer to the caldari as the NPCing race. On the other hand this is probably just CCP having no idea what to do with missiles across the board.

yeah the higher dps on RLML's is nice, but honestly the 40 second reload time makes it feel more like a practical joke than a useful thing. Forget the caracal for a moment...the cerberus *should* put out 500 dps or so with any given weapons system and 600-700 dps or more with the HAM's. This would put it on par with the other hac's for dps who have a normal 5-10 sec reload time (or instant for amarr). But the fact that your dps is actually half that due to reload time means that it is bad.

I mean of course I'll change my tune if Artillery gets a 40 second reload time in exchange for a 3 round magazine and 30% more alpha. The crying would be amazing and heads would roll. But **** caldari apparently.


You can do a cerberus with 730 dps with t2 scourge rages and 3 hob ll's, around 850ish overheated. You have to have almost god like fitting skills, some implants and you have to train up your missiles related skills to 4's and 5's. Rigs consist of t2 rigor and t2 em hardener. With my skills, rages have 134 explosion radius 34km range ( good for hitting cruisers). If you use javelins you get 78 explosion radius ( for dessies?) 50+ range @ 500dps. However with faction scourge you get 78 explosion radius and 40km range @ 620-630 dps, 720 oh. You can only get this dps using an afterburner, if you use mwd youll be short on pg and will have to drop a bcu to fit a power diagnostic unit. dps drops by 85 on all missile types. Ehp is pathetic : 20-21k ehp, but then again you can fix with shield boosters. A full cycle of those (overheated ) should give you an extra 15k ehp buffer. 5 mids minus 2 for point and prop.

Edit: p.s you have to overheat the shield modules..........
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#440 - 2014-02-03 07:31:39 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
You can do a cerberus with 730 dps with t2 scourge rages and 3 hob ll's, around 850ish overheated. You have to have almost god like fitting skills, some implants and you have to train up your missiles related skills to 4's and 5's. Rigs consist of t2 rigor and t2 em hardener. With my skills, rages have 134 explosion radius 34km range ( good for hitting cruisers). If you use javelins you get 78 explosion radius ( for dessies?) 50+ range @ 500dps. However with faction scourge you get 78 explosion radius and 40km range @ 620-630 dps, 720 oh. You can only get this dps using an afterburner, if you use mwd youll be short on pg and will have to drop a bcu to fit a power diagnostic unit. dps drops by 85 on all missile types. Ehp is pathetic : 20-21k ehp, but then again you can fix with shield boosters. A full cycle of those (overheated ) should give you an extra 15k ehp buffer. 5 mids minus 2 for point and prop.

I think the issue for most players is with the Caracal. Once you start getting into the $200-$300 million range, you have a lot more options for both DPS and tank.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.