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[Rubicon 1.1] Omnidirectional Tracking Links

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#321 - 2014-01-29 00:12:49 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Emiko Rowna wrote:
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?



no no .. its not Sentries that were ever the problem.

there are two contentious drone issues ...

Issue 1. The Dominix and the Ishtar have got hull bonuses that have made them ridiculously good sentry boats and they have become the drone mission/rat boat of choice.

2. in fleet battles people started assigning sentry drones en masse to "assist" a single fast locking FC who then fires all the drones at once, creating server issues and seriously upsetting the GSF who for reasons of their own do not want to adopt this doctrine and have trouble countering it.



However I doubt this change is about those issues. The omni change have made the Domi and ishtar even MORE the drone boat of choice than before (the nerf mainly effects unbonused hulls not teh Domi/Ishtar) and it is unlikely the change will have much effect on drone assist doctrines at all (bouncers firing at 150-200km are still fine after the nerf for example) .

What is actually more likely is this change is nothing to do with omnis/sentries being OP at all ... but is instead part of an overall "dumbing down" we are seeing where all modules and ships are getting "balanced" to be more and more similar ... presumably to make it "easier" for new players to get into the game.

******** change.

The issue with omni's is the same as with all other drone modules. Apart from the almost non-existent officer DDA and the FNODTL there are no real variations.

Basically we're all flying around with effectively officer level drone gear equipped. Were the drone mods done in the same way as the rest of the mods in game you would have basic omni's, T1 omni's, T2 omnis, faction omni's, deadspace and officer.

To get the uber omni's you would have to pay for them. All this has done is .. nothing... because it didn't address the problem...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2014-01-29 01:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since when was the rattlesnake OP?

What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected.

Rattlesnake is actually indicative of the capabilities of most sentry platforms, if it isn't OP, it's pretty hard to argue drones are OP.

And the armageddon, gilla, nestor, stratios, drone proteus, myrm, eos and anything else with a drone damage bonus and no sentry application bonus I may be forgetting could equally be substituted in the sentence.

Sounds like the issue is more, heavy drones are crap so the only large drone is sentries.

The OP part is was having a passive module that gives a 25% bonus to optimal and tracking at the same time.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2014-01-29 01:39:53 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since when was the rattlesnake OP?

What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected.

Rattlesnake is actually indicative of the capabilities of most sentry platforms, if it isn't OP, it's pretty hard to argue drones are OP.

And the armageddon, gilla, nestor, stratios, drone proteus, myrm, eos and anything else with a drone damage bonus and no sentry application bonus I may be forgetting could equally be substituted in the sentence.

Sounds like the issue is more, heavy drones are crap so the only large drone is sentries.

The OP part is was having a passive module that gives a 25% bonus to optimal and tracking at the same time.

Heavy drones are crap, but that mainly has to do with the limitations and mechanics of non-sentry drones. Heavies, no matter how well balanced, aren't practical long range weapons and as such, can't supplement sentries the way you seem to insinuate they should.

Regarding the mods being OP, fine, I can buy that in itself, though unless the end result was OP I'd expect some counterbalance in the stats of the sentries themselves. Across the line of applicable ships as a whole I don't see them as OP, but we didn't have any counter adjustment at all.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2014-01-29 03:30:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Heavy drones are crap, but that mainly has to do with the limitations and mechanics of non-sentry drones. Heavies, no matter how well balanced, aren't practical long range weapons and as such, can't supplement sentries the way you seem to insinuate they should.
Not saying that heavies should replace sentries as long range weapons, but then again 20k is not long range for a battleship weapon, but it is long enough to not want to use heavy drones for.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#325 - 2014-01-29 05:25:29 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Heavy drones are crap, but that mainly has to do with the limitations and mechanics of non-sentry drones. Heavies, no matter how well balanced, aren't practical long range weapons and as such, can't supplement sentries the way you seem to insinuate they should.
Not saying that heavies should replace sentries as long range weapons, but then again 20k is not long range for a battleship weapon, but it is long enough to not want to use heavy drones for.


One issue is that whilst heavies have their uses - such as blapping structures, or hitting large (BS sized) targets that are really really close to you (as in 5000m close) - when it comes down to it a single flight of heavies takes up the same space as a flight of sentries, two and half flights of mediums or 5 flights of lights, All of the latter are a better use of space.

If heavies were 20m3 bandwidth they may see more use though many people would still see them as suboptimal compared to what else there is to occupy the space.

One alternative that might see more heavy use is allow the mobile depot to facilitate swapping drones between cargo and drone bay.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#326 - 2014-01-29 07:34:30 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

One alternative that might see more heavy use is allow the mobile depot to facilitate swapping drones between cargo and drone bay.


That works already.


I'm really very disappointed in how this has been handled by CCP - why bother asking for feedback if you're not even going to so much acknowledge it? Were you so hell bent on destroying drone blob warfare that scorched earth was the way to go? Because honestly that is what it feels like. All the fun sentry boats without bonuses are massively damaged by this.

Still, I suppose heavy missiles will have some company at the back of the cupboard, covered in dust. Every cloud eh?
DemonX Bane
Lippstadt Creed
Solyaris Chtonium
#327 - 2014-01-29 07:42:18 UTC
Lets put it this way. Either I train for skills to improve my sentries (about 3 months in total) or I quit eve until next patch or so. Guess what I will probably do the later as they are seriously ******* up the newbie low-sp Players over.

Incase I dont reply on forums. Please send ingame mail. I log in atleast once a day.
baltoxtdl
TheDarkLegion Inc
#328 - 2014-01-29 07:59:51 UTC
so now, rattlesnake in lvl5 mission neuted to the hell and back, can't even turn ON new ODLs, and even load tracking script to get some tracking now. Nice going CCP very nice. Well played CCP
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2014-01-29 08:35:33 UTC
Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.

This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Trimmaloth
Darklight Expedition
#330 - 2014-01-29 11:38:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.

This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries.


While Ishtar and Dominix will "still work" as you have stated, all the other drone boats will terribly suffer.

This was not a goddamn sentry issue, it was an Ishtar and Dominix bonus issue. These 2 ships had really unlogical hull range bonuses over the other drone boats.

The other problem i have is, that this change is very poorly implemented. I mean we cannot even tell in space or in hanger what the range or tracking bonus is with these new modules. And this from a game i pay every month for....

And still no response from any Dev so far!

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#331 - 2014-01-29 12:48:41 UTC
Trimmaloth wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.

This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries.


While Ishtar and Dominix will "still work" as you have stated, all the other drone boats will terribly suffer.

This was not a goddamn sentry issue, it was an Ishtar and Dominix bonus issue. These 2 ships had really unlogical hull range bonuses over the other drone boats.

The other problem i have is, that this change is very poorly implemented. I mean we cannot even tell in space or in hanger what the range or tracking bonus is with these new modules. And this from a game i pay every month for....

And still no response from any Dev so far!



I actually agree with you. I mercilessly exploit the domi and ishtar sentry range bonus every day in w-space PVE because it's logical to do so.

This does not mean I agree with the way these ships were changed.

Tracking bonus for all drones makes sense. Range bonus for sentries turns the dominix into a pirate-battleship-beating point defence system. It feels good to be a domi pilot exploiting this nonsense, but in my guts I know it's bad for the game.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#332 - 2014-01-29 12:56:48 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Trimmaloth wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tried the new omnis on an Ishtar in a. C3 w-space site last night. They still work. There's more to do since the Ishtar now needs to swap scripts and maneuver. Previous setup was single omni plus dual prop. Will probably change to single prop dual omni just to save the hassle of switching scripts.

This change is unlikely to affect the general greatness of sentry doctrines. For that they just need to remove drone assist for sentries.


While Ishtar and Dominix will "still work" as you have stated, all the other drone boats will terribly suffer.

This was not a goddamn sentry issue, it was an Ishtar and Dominix bonus issue. These 2 ships had really unlogical hull range bonuses over the other drone boats.

The other problem i have is, that this change is very poorly implemented. I mean we cannot even tell in space or in hanger what the range or tracking bonus is with these new modules. And this from a game i pay every month for....

And still no response from any Dev so far!



I actually agree with you. I mercilessly exploit the domi and ishtar sentry range bonus every day in w-space PVE because it's logical to do so.

This does not mean I agree with the way these ships were changed.

Tracking bonus for all drones makes sense. Range bonus for sentries turns the dominix into a pirate-battleship-beating point defence system. It feels good to be a domi pilot exploiting this nonsense, but in my guts I know it's bad for the game.




Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#333 - 2014-01-29 13:00:41 UTC
Oh noes, my overpowered toys don't work anymore i better quit the game!!!!.

Themepark carebears are really disgusting.

The Tears Must Flow
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2014-01-29 13:01:32 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:

Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Given that we have the ability to slave sentry drones to a SEBO'd FC in a cruiser I'd say that a domi fleet is the fastest way to burn through an opposing fleet of the same size at any range below 140km.

Even 2 domis or ishtars with a TP amongst them are deadly to any HAC within 100km.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#335 - 2014-01-29 13:07:16 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:

Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Given that we have the ability to slave sentry drones to a SEBO'd FC in a cruiser I'd say that a domi fleet is the fastest way to burn through an opposing fleet of the same size at any range below 140km.

Even 2 domis or ishtars with a TP amongst them are deadly to any HAC within 100km.


if they are so OP then trade in your HAC for Domis and a drone bunny cruiser.
Trimmaloth
Darklight Expedition
#336 - 2014-01-29 13:11:12 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Oh noes, my overpowered toys don't work anymore i better quit the game!!!!.

Themepark carebears are really disgusting.


What a productive forum post. You must be really proud of yourself! Well done!Big smile

I congratulate you!
Lakarin G'Kar
Bolt Hole Cartel
#337 - 2014-01-29 13:28:49 UTC
Edmark I wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Once again, a PvE tactic is ruined by another bad CCP hire, who is obsessed with PvP


This is primarily a pvp game Br0beans. The challenge is balancing the two- hence the word: balance.


The concept of balance is a fools endeavour. other MMO's have attempted to "Balance" their games and what did they end up with you ask? A game that was so dumbed down, all the skills were essentially the same for all factions in the game.

If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.

People in this game skill themselves in order to reach a desired result. When the game masters are constantly shifting the post forward and backward, it creates instability. People who play these games are always searching for something that is OP and when the game reaches "balance" in this way, everyone will use the same ship and configuration as soon as and while it remains OP.

Consider this before you stat shifting the goal posts trying to achieve "balance" ccp
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#338 - 2014-01-29 13:41:19 UTC
Lakarin G'Kar wrote:

The concept of balance is a fools endeavour....

If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.


Have you been living under a rock for the last two years?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Lakarin G'Kar
Bolt Hole Cartel
#339 - 2014-01-29 13:48:25 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Lakarin G'Kar wrote:

The concept of balance is a fools endeavour....

If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.


Have you been living under a rock for the last two years?


I am still quite new as far as the game goes, so its quite possible.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#340 - 2014-01-29 15:00:00 UTC
Lakarin G'Kar wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Lakarin G'Kar wrote:

The concept of balance is a fools endeavour....

If CCP attempts to start this process with their game to try and attract new player or to please the PVP crowd. They will drive their game into the ground.


Have you been living under a rock for the last two years?


I am still quite new as far as the game goes, so its quite possible.


They've been doing a full balance pass, ship class by ship class for quite a while now, and its been a resounding success so far, with nearly universally positive feedback.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.