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[Rubicon 1.1] Omnidirectional Tracking Links

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Emiko Rowna
Keys To The Stars
#301 - 2014-01-28 06:50:47 UTC
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?
ashley Eoner
#302 - 2014-01-28 07:31:19 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Batelle wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...

Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.

My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live.


I'm sure CCP is well acquainted with randomness and will not take your resub as an endorsement specifically of rubicon 1.1 Roll
That said if you quit over a nerf before, this definitely also counts as a nerf. I don't know what you mean by asking for "better communication." I also would like to see additional justification from Fozzie on this matter, but I'm also disappointment that several people chose this thread to attack him personally and question his motives. Ultimately if CCP wants to nerf something, they shouldn't really back down over some self-interested persons being upset about it. They should listen to some fact-based comparisons and rational discussions, of which there has been plenty already in this thread, some saying it won't be that bad, others that certain ships/uses will be critically affected.

As for this not making it live, its being deployed tomorrow. I expect a new wave of discussion about the omnilink nerfs starting then.



Its probably more a case of "nerf it more than we think it needs and then back off the nerf a bit next patch to a more reasonable level" :D That way everyone will be happy about the un-nerf even though its still a nerf compared to original.

I had a kitten once that was cupboard mad. If you accidentally locked it in a cupboard and then later realized and let it out, it treated you like a "savior and hero" even though you were the one that had locked it in,

Indeed that pattern has repeated itself endlessly over the years..


As for my request of "better communications"? Well I was specifically referring to the fact that CCP has completely disappeared from this thread after several good points were posted. Some sort of explanation as to why the half assed setup exists on the test server and if we should prepare for the same on the main server would be a good start. Addressing the legitimate concerns of some of the posters would be nice too.

I don't have any delusions that my 4 subscriptions will be noticed by CCP either. It's just the principle at this point.
v3locity
Spatial Distortion Inc
#303 - 2014-01-28 11:30:57 UTC
Batelle wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

I'm annoyed because I just reactivated some of my accounts before I ran into this thread. Now CCP will take that as tacit approval of this kind of crap...

Stuff like this helped me decide to quit last time. I had hoped there would be better communication by this point.

My only hope now is that this is so half assed that it doesn't actually make it live.


I'm sure CCP is well acquainted with randomness and will not take your resub as an endorsement specifically of rubicon 1.1 Roll
That said if you quit over a nerf before, this definitely also counts as a nerf. I don't know what you mean by asking for "better communication." I also would like to see additional justification from Fozzie on this matter, but I'm also disappointment that several people chose this thread to attack him personally and question his motives. Ultimately if CCP wants to nerf something, they shouldn't really back down over some self-interested persons being upset about it. They should listen to some fact-based comparisons and rational discussions, of which there has been plenty already in this thread, some saying it won't be that bad, others that certain ships/uses will be critically affected.

As for this not making it live, its being deployed tomorrow. I expect a new wave of discussion about the omnilink nerfs starting then.


Butthurt? Why are you so concerned. I mean, what, 4 posts on this?

I've quit for a lot less and do the same with other games.

It's really very simple. Take away what people like, they leave.

Hide and watch.
Monsieur Leon
Doomheim
#304 - 2014-01-28 11:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Monsieur Leon
Emiko Rowna wrote:
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?



Oh they were never overpowered. The only thing that is overpowered is Goons ability to b*t*h and whine and CCP's response to them solely.

Everytime someone comes up with a clever way to even the numbers. Goons whine and their CCP pets listen and obey.

So for carriers we nerfed the warp mechanics making they way too slow require them to jump due to ceptor changes. Then the ESS (Eat S**T Suckers) module stealing 5% from all the folks who pay for their SOV (which of course is the all the money that maintains Concord). And the Coup de grâce nerfing the drones tracking / range and having the "new" modules drain cap. Transforming drone boats to museum pieces.

Gee, maybe i should join goons then i could have my own CCP code monkey on a short leash too.

Do you think you guys could actually do some work for the other people in the game? Or hey why not fix the things that have been broken for years before having people rage quit over stupid s**t like this.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#305 - 2014-01-28 12:00:11 UTC
Emiko Rowna wrote:
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?


Sentries were never overpowered. That is why nobody is changing sentries.

Omnidirectional tracking links on the other hand were.

Lets have a look at the sentry drones first (T2 variant). Their statistics are on par with large guns. Resolution of 400mm, DPS around 20 per drone, tracking ranging from 0.012 to 0.036 rad/s. They have some advantages over guns (will continue to fire when ship is jammed or out of cap) and disadvantages (cant move, can be destroyed).

So in short sentry drones can be considered as large guns. However you can fit maximum of 5 of them at any given time while battleships usually sports 7-8 large guns. This is compensated by giving drone boats higher drone damage bonus (10% per level) and allowing them to use decent number of guns.

So far so good. Now the omnidirectional tracking link comes into scene and it tips the balance off. with every passive omni you get 30% optimal range and 30% tracking to every drone (sans stacking penalties). This is far superior to what your large guns can get with tracking computers and tracking enhancers. So changing omnidirectional tracking link to match that of tracking computer makes sense.

Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#306 - 2014-01-28 13:42:15 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
So far so good. Now the omnidirectional tracking link comes into scene and it tips the balance off. with every passive omni you get 30% optimal range and 30% tracking to every drone (sans stacking penalties). This is far superior to what your large guns can get with tracking computers and tracking enhancers. So changing omnidirectional tracking link to match that of tracking computer makes sense.


It makes sense until you consider that drone boats have one fewer slot [because droneboat], cannot realistically move and shoot, nor manage transversal or angular velocity, their guns are destructible (setting aside carriers which have different issues), those mods were also harder to fit than TCs and they have no equivalent of a TE.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#307 - 2014-01-28 14:17:40 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
[quote=Emiko Rowna]

Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants.


Are you saying that the incompetence was so bad that Fed Navy Omni's no longer have any bonus over T2's?
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#308 - 2014-01-28 14:33:57 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
Emiko Rowna wrote:
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?


Sentries were never overpowered. That is why nobody is changing sentries.

Omnidirectional tracking links on the other hand were.

Lets have a look at the sentry drones first (T2 variant). Their statistics are on par with large guns. Resolution of 400mm, DPS around 20 per drone, tracking ranging from 0.012 to 0.036 rad/s. They have some advantages over guns (will continue to fire when ship is jammed or out of cap) and disadvantages (cant move, can be destroyed).

So in short sentry drones can be considered as large guns. However you can fit maximum of 5 of them at any given time while battleships usually sports 7-8 large guns. This is compensated by giving drone boats higher drone damage bonus (10% per level) and allowing them to use decent number of guns.

So far so good. Now the omnidirectional tracking link comes into scene and it tips the balance off. with every passive omni you get 30% optimal range and 30% tracking to every drone (sans stacking penalties). This is far superior to what your large guns can get with tracking computers and tracking enhancers. So changing omnidirectional tracking link to match that of tracking computer makes sense.

Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants.


Why do they need to be the same? Homogenisation is completely pointless. There should be something completely OP.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#309 - 2014-01-28 15:51:44 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Shpenat wrote:
[quote=Emiko Rowna]

Granted, directly copying tracking computer over to omnidirectional tracking link is tad lazy especially considering there are no faction variants.


Are you saying that the incompetence was so bad that Fed Navy Omni's no longer have any bonus over T2's?


This is worth repeating. Fed Navy Omnis are now trash.

old t2 omni - 25% optimal, 25% tracking
old faction omni - 30% optimal, 30% tracking (based on the copy&paste from faction tracking comps)

new t2 omni (range) - 15% optimal, 30% falloff
new faction omni (range) - 16% optimal, 35% falloff (oh wow 1% optimal, 5% falloff, and 3 CPU saved, wow this is a piece of junk for low-sp plebs).

On my Rattlesnake I run two faction omnis with a t2 scope chip. After the nerf, here is how gardes are affected. 40% reduction in tracking, and 20-25% reduction in effective range, from 59+12 to 45+21 (once you're a few km into garde falloff you're better switching to different drones). The optimal range nerf on scope chips and omnis is so heavy that they're giving up all their tracking bonuses and still lose a chunk of range even with scripts.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#310 - 2014-01-28 16:24:54 UTC
Since ISD is all over locking the GD thread what does anyone think the percentage chance that Fozzie will come to this thread and address these issues is? I'm going with 0%
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#311 - 2014-01-28 17:46:33 UTC
Batelle wrote:
This is worth repeating. Fed Navy Omnis are now trash…
On my Rattlesnake I run two faction omnis with a t2 scope chip. After the nerf, here is how gardes are affected. 40% reduction in tracking, and 20-25% reduction in effective range, from 59+12 to 45+21 (once you're a few km into garde falloff you're better switching to different drones). The optimal range nerf on scope chips and omnis is so heavy that they're giving up all their tracking bonuses and still lose a chunk of range even with scripts.

You forgot that they're now active modules that require capacitor. Twisted
Rubicon 1.1: "Everything Is Fair Game" (for the nerf bat!)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#312 - 2014-01-28 17:52:00 UTC
Just get with the lolrauder program already.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#313 - 2014-01-28 22:59:45 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Since ISD is all over locking the GD thread what does anyone think the percentage chance that Fozzie will come to this thread and address these issues is? I'm going with 0%


He did respond in my GD thread before ISD locked it down.
Standard "I did what I said I was going to do. Drones are competitive with other weapon systems now".
I believe he was talking about rockets and light missiles, but can't be sure.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#314 - 2014-01-28 23:01:44 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
He did respond in my GD thread before ISD locked it down.
Standard "I did what I said I was going to do. Drones are competitive with other weapon systems now".
I believe he was talking about rockets and light missiles, but can't be sure.

Drones just became un-op.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#315 - 2014-01-28 23:04:17 UTC
An ill-conceived, poorly implemented, knee-jerk response to an issue that could have so easily been addressed by looking at Drone Assist mechanics.

No supporting code (read: statistical info in-game) to allow for proper testing.

Twelve days' notice for SISI testing and no acknowledgment of feedback whatsoever.

Pretty unimpressive.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#316 - 2014-01-28 23:11:09 UTC
This is so awesome. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2014-01-28 23:12:56 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
He did respond in my GD thread before ISD locked it down.
Standard "I did what I said I was going to do. Drones are competitive with other weapon systems now".
I believe he was talking about rockets and light missiles, but can't be sure.

Drones just became un-op.

Since when was the rattlesnake OP?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#318 - 2014-01-28 23:27:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since when was the rattlesnake OP?

What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2014-01-28 23:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since when was the rattlesnake OP?

What does this have to do with the Rattlesnake? It's only one of a handful of ships that will be affected.

Rattlesnake is actually indicative of the capabilities of most sentry platforms, if it isn't OP, it's pretty hard to argue drones are OP.

And the armageddon, gilla, nestor, stratios, drone proteus, myrm, eos and anything else with a drone damage bonus and no sentry application bonus I may be forgetting could equally be substituted in the sentence.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2014-01-28 23:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Emiko Rowna wrote:
Can someone tell me when the change was made to sentries that made them so over powered? In what patch did they receive this large buff that lead to them being over powered?



no no .. its not Sentries that were ever the problem.

there are two contentious drone issues ...

Issue 1. The Dominix and the Ishtar have got hull bonuses that have made them ridiculously good sentry boats and they have become the drone mission/rat boat of choice.

2. in fleet battles people started assigning sentry drones en masse to "assist" a single fast locking FC who then fires all the drones at once, creating server issues and seriously upsetting the GSF who for reasons of their own do not want to adopt this doctrine and have trouble countering it.



However I doubt this change is about those issues. The omni change have made the Domi and ishtar even MORE the drone boat of choice than before (the nerf mainly effects unbonused hulls not teh Domi/Ishtar) and it is unlikely the change will have much effect on drone assist doctrines at all (bouncers firing at 150-200km are still fine after the nerf for example) .

What is actually more likely is this change is nothing to do with omnis/sentries being OP at all ... but is instead part of an overall "dumbing down" we are seeing where all modules and ships are getting "balanced" to be more and more similar ... presumably to make it "easier" for new players to get into the game.