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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#281 - 2014-01-25 10:42:04 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Major Trant wrote:
Here is a potential solution to the switch ammo and partial reload problem. Instead of having a fixed 40 or 35 second reload time. Have a fixed 10 second reload time and a variable Cooldown timer.

Every time you fire a missile the Cooldown timer clocks up 1.5 seconds. Every time you stop firing the Cooldown timer starts winding down. You can only reload when the Cooldown timer is at 0.

So lets give some examples, assume you start with 20 missiles loaded:

1. At the start of the battle, you want to change the ammo type. No cooldown timer, 10 second reload.

2. You fire all 20 missiles in one burst. 30 second Cooldown, 10 second Reload.

3. You fire 5 missiles in one burst then want to top up or change ammo type. 7.5 second Cooldown and 10 second reload.

The beauty is that you are not committed to the reload during the Cooldown period assuming you still have some missile left. You might stop firing midfight due to range issues, the initial target pops, you get ECM'd or damped out. The Cooldown timer runs down automatically. If you start firing again later, your Cooldown timer is not fully wound up firing off the last of the missiles, thus the reload is quicker.


This kind of well thought out, pragmatic problem solving clearly has no place in these forums. I hope you feel ashamed of yourself!. What were you thinking?

Big smile

ps. Really nice neat solution.
+1


I think a similar solution which I gave to fix this specific problem may be slightly easier to code for. I like the cooldown option above also although perhaps my option would offer slightly more interesting gameplay potential as you have the option to wait for a full reload or take half the time for instance and fire of ten missiles to quickly finish off the kill.

Medalyn Isis wrote:
Here is a thought.

What if for each missile there was for instance a 2 second reload time. You have two choices, you could either load up a full salvo of 20 missiles and then fire all at once, which in this case would take you 40 seconds. Alternatively if you just need to quickly hit a target you could fire the salvo half way through the loading process which would fire 10 missiles and only take 20 seconds to reload.

I'm not sure if that is possible to code but it sounds like it would be quite fun to use. Then we can have a proper burst weapon with the flexibility and option during a reload still available for the pilot to fire their burst of missiles when they choose.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#282 - 2014-01-25 12:18:46 UTC
Jasen Harper wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
If your main complaint is fire and forget than you should further read my post. I explain how the missile mechanics are flawed and unrealistic. I explain how missiles function how fighter pilots use them. Meaning that players should have to maneuver there ships to give their missile the best flight path to their target. Someone who flies stupidy would see there missile overshoot or turn too hard and loose lock. Missile pilot would have to do something to inflict damage. Turrets users should be happy about this change as well.


Modern missiles aren't nearly as limited as you imply, and space bound missiles would be even less so.



Thats not the point. I honestly dont understand what people are not getting. If that were the case missiles would always hit their target for full damage in game as in life, unless you could ecm them or shoot them down.

Can everyone just google missile? Read the many descriptions and please post your results. Missiles are what they are. You cant get mad and make them less than half as effective as everything else because you believe they are easy. Which is why I made my suggestion to change the already overly complicated missile code with something simple. A change that would allow to apply damage similar to turrets and require more skill and piloting to apply that damage. If you people cant agree with that attempt then clearly you dislike missiles in the game as a whole and honestly are just here to troll and make stupid comments.

Finally your comment about missiles not being limited is kind of short sighted. While some advanced missiles can undergo skull crushing acceleration ( i dont remember 100-200+ G's?) in a almost straight path they cannot turn at those accelerations as the G forces would stack up considerably and that missile electronics would fail and/or that missile would be torn apart. <<<---------- Earth/Space, it doesn't matter. That is what a mean.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#283 - 2014-01-25 12:25:39 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

That's kind of the point of a dual armour rep. it makes you indestructible to 1 opponent at the cost of horribly gimped dps and extremely tight cap. In a 1v1, cap boosters in the hold are equivalent to very thick armour plating.

When it's 2v1 or 3v1 its a different story - the dual rep ship dies in an instant.

By the way, why on earth are you fitting HMLs in a 1v1 scenario? It's a long range weapon. to take on a self-tanked thorax, use something like this:
[Caracal, HAM-kite]

5x Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II (Nova Rage Heavy Assault Missile)

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 150)
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Damage Control II
2x Ballistic Control System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

2x Hobgoblin II

Your web will ensure he cannot get closer than 10km. If he tries, his sig radius gets very large. In addition, you can't run a dual rep tank and keep the MWD lit in a thorax, the capacitor isn't strong enough.

A dual rep thorax is forced to fit electron blasters (even then he needs a powergid implant). His range will NULL ammo is 4200 + 5040.
Once you've killed his drones, his DPS at 10km, even with NULL ammo is 22% of 219 = 48.18dps. Yours is closer to 437 without drones if he's at 10km, a little less if you choose to kite out to disruptor range, but then he can't damage you at all.
To damage you he's got to get close. To get close he burns (a lot of) cap. Every Gj of cap he burns is effectively burning away his own armour so he's doing your job for you. A dual rep thorax can't even sustain its own tank without running a prop mod unless it overheats the cap booster and times reloads and restarts perfectly.

If the thorax pilot is foolish enough to fit an AB, he will always be out-kited by you and will eventually die helplessly.

A caracal vs thorax is always (rightly) going to be a close fight. The pilot with better cap and range management will win it. The thorax must get close, fast and stay there. The Caracal simply needs to prevent that for long enough that the thorax runs out of boosters.
Duel rep Thorax with Dual 150's & Hammerheads, 9,000opt 7,500 f/o (faction antimatter) 469dps, 2,000m/s.

** Thorax can carry 18 navy 800 boosters and still have room for 3000 rounds of ammo. Is 33% cap stable with everything running, cycle 1 repper for cap booster reloads can perma run MWD. (Be smart and cycle MWD to lower sig blowout.)
without drones dps is still a reasonable 313 dps at web range.

Both have the same EHP. Caracal tanks 255dps, Thorax 340dps so the fight would come down to pilot skill.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Inspiration
#284 - 2014-01-25 16:30:53 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
I still think the base theme for these launchers is off and that killing smaller classes of ships should never be only viable if the launchers are used as main weapon systems.

What would work is sacrificing one normal DPS high slot for something that can handle smaller classes very well. Restricting fits to one such module doesn't overpower anything, especially if the module does similar DPS as a class matching weapon system, but with much better damage application to the smaller classes of ships.

That solution wouldn't cause balancing issues, it just shifts damage application ability. To accomplish bursts, we already have overheating and you could tune that per module as you like. Keep it simple, have separate variables to tune for separate aspects of damage application, nicely isolated. The current solution tangles everything up in one unmanageable mess and every change hurts somewhere.!

The current approach is costing too many resources and it is good to take a step back and rethink it!


Just an improvement on what I wrote before.

Instead of imposing an arbitrary hard limit on the number of launchers, it would be better to give RL very high fitting requirements to prevent them being used as a main weapon system.

I am serious!

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2014-01-25 18:49:06 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Duel rep Thorax with Dual 150's & Hammerheads, 9,000opt 7,500 f/o (faction antimatter) 469dps, 2,000m/s.

** Thorax can carry 18 navy 800 boosters and still have room for 3000 rounds of ammo. Is 33% cap stable with everything running, cycle 1 repper for cap booster reloads can perma run MWD. (Be smart and cycle MWD to lower sig blowout.)
without drones dps is still a reasonable 313 dps at web range.

Both have the same EHP. Caracal tanks 255dps, Thorax 340dps so the fight would come down to pilot skill.


To counter this (unusual) thorax you'd want to get into a 500m orbit where he can't hit you at all. If you have a scram, you've won.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kontrapshun
Doomheim
#286 - 2014-01-26 04:33:37 UTC
This is a funny dog and pony show, really!

i just sold all my missile characters and I'm not going back.... just don't trust you guys.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2014-01-26 09:33:55 UTC
Maxemus Payne wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I posted an update recently in the old rapid missile thread on this topic but I assume many of you haven't been watching that so I'm making a new thread for the time being with some updates for 1.1.

The basic gist is that we aren't satisfied with some of the pain points resulting from the change (especially ammo swapping) and want to continue to iterate until they are in the best possible place. For this patch we weren't able to get in a fix for the ammo swapping. We tried a few versions and all of them had enough issues that we didn't feel comfortable deploying. For 1.1 we are going to do the following:

  • All rapid missile launchers will have 35 second reload timers rather than 40 seconds
  • Rapid Light Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 20 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 19 missiles per magazine for tech 1
  • Rapid Heavy Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 25 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 24 missiles per magazine for tech 1

    • This change is meant to increase their power slightly, and make them feel a little better to use by cutting down the reload time.

    We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them, so, rather than make drastic changes so quickly we want to give it more time and see what happens with usage and feedback over the next couple months. Large changes are still on the table and I won't be finished with this until we address the ammo swapping issue.

    Thanks for reading and responding




    The basic gist is that you're not satisfied...well let me clue you in. NO ONE is satisfied. I was messing around with a RLML Cerberus on Sisi like the week or two before Rubicon came out...and the "Last minute" changes were not implemented on there. Could have told us about the PG requirement change too when you introduced them to us. Maybe if these concepts were tested fully before throwing them at the community(or even partially as it seems) we wouldn't be in this shituation. Where did you see people "start liking them" ? Where was this? Fencing in the community with no other viable alternatives does not constitute people "liking" them.

    Seriously, 20 missiles or RLML? I literally laughed out loud when I read that.
    35 seconds reload time?

    SO CUTE.

    Don't worry CCP, I've been playing for like I dunno...over TEN YEARS now.... guess I'll just have to wait a few more for a working missile weapon system...

    *HINT* Find the middle ground from the old HML system and the new...
    *HINT* Fix HAMs so we don't NEED a gang of people to scram and web and TP our targets.

    These systems should be able to be used solo.

    Lastly, PLEASE, do not change turret systems to be anything like this... I threw up a little just thinking about that.

    -Max



    HAMS need nto FIXING. THey are incredbly powerful fightign ships of the classes they intend to target. THey are weak against frigates only or against cruisers that did EVERYTHIGN possible specifically to defend against HAMS (adn therefore they should be like that).


    HInt ALL weapon systems need a scramb and web and even sometimes a TP to reliably hit for nearly full damage (except upscalling shots , liek from a frigate into a battleship).

    THe weak missiles are the HM.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #288 - 2014-01-26 15:15:15 UTC
    I don't think anyone should hold out any hope that missiles will get addressed anytime in the near future. With the mess that is drones and drone assist, I think priorities have shifted. As many have pointed out, there are so many hulls that simply lack RLML bonuses; quite a few Caldari and virtually all Amarr and Minmatar.

    So here's a relevant question: Why is it that hybrids, lasers, projectiles and drones all receive bonuses to light, medium and heavy weapon systems - yet missiles continue to get pigeonholed into specific ones? If RLMLs are indeed a "medium" weapon system, why haven't the various ship hulls been updated? ie:

    • Tengu: No 10% missile velocity bonus for RLMLs
    • Caracal Navy: No 5% explosion radius for RLMLs
    • Osprey Navy: No 10% missile velocity for RLMLs
    • Drake: No 10% kinetic damage bonus for RLMLs
    • Drake Navy: No 10% missile velocity or 5% explosion radius bonuses for RLMLs
    • Nighthawk: No 7.5% kinetic damage, no 7.5% rate of fire or 5% explosion radius bonuses for RLMLs
    • Cyclone: No 5% rate of fire for RLMLs
    • Loki: Honestly, this is such a mess I don't even know where to start…
    • Claymore: No 5% rate of fire or 5% explosion velocity bonuses for RLMLs
    • Damnation: No 10% missile velocity or 10% missile damage bonuses for RLMLs

    This isn't an exhaustive list and I'm sure I've missed a few.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #289 - 2014-01-26 18:13:24 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    I don't think anyone should hold out any hope that missiles will get addressed anytime in the near future. With the mess that is drones and drone assist, I think priorities have shifted. As many have pointed out, there are so many hulls that simply lack RLML bonuses; quite a few Caldari and virtually all Amarr and Minmatar.

    So here's a relevant question: Why is it that hybrids, lasers, projectiles and drones all receive bonuses to light, medium and heavy weapon systems - yet missiles continue to get pigeonholed into specific ones? If RLMLs are indeed a "medium" weapon system, why haven't the various ship hulls been updated? ie:

    • Tengu: No 10% missile velocity bonus for RLMLs
    • Caracal Navy: No 5% explosion radius for RLMLs
    • Osprey Navy: No 10% missile velocity for RLMLs
    • Drake: No 10% kinetic damage bonus for RLMLs
    • Drake Navy: No 10% missile velocity or 5% explosion radius bonuses for RLMLs
    • Nighthawk: No 7.5% kinetic damage, no 7.5% rate of fire or 5% explosion radius bonuses for RLMLs
    • Cyclone: No 5% rate of fire for RLMLs
    • Loki: Honestly, this is such a mess I don't even know where to start…
    • Claymore: No 5% rate of fire or 5% explosion velocity bonuses for RLMLs
    • Damnation: No 10% missile velocity or 10% missile damage bonuses for RLMLs

    This isn't an exhaustive list and I'm sure I've missed a few.


    what? no turret ship has generic all-size bonuses. drones do, but as we all know, combat drones are awful, and CCP have been putting a few size-specific tracking/speed bonuses in, for some reason thinking that people don't just use sentries on everything with 75 or more bandwidth.
    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #290 - 2014-01-26 19:34:21 UTC
    An RLML Drake with a 10% per level light missile kinetic damage bonus would do:

    C. Navy Scorge:
    Sustained: 300 dps (+ 99 dps from Hob II's)
    Burst: 450 dps (+ 99 dps from Hob II's)

    Scorge Fury:
    Sustained: 350 dps (+drones)
    Burst: 500 dps (+drones)


    Seems okay. Can I haz please?
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #291 - 2014-01-26 19:51:06 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    An RLML Drake with a 10% per level light missile kinetic damage bonus would do:

    C. Navy Scorge:
    Sustained: 300 dps (+ 99 dps from Hob II's)
    Burst: 450 dps (+ 99 dps from Hob II's)

    Scorge Fury:
    Sustained: 350 dps (+drones)
    Burst: 500 dps (+drones)


    Seems okay. Can I haz please?


    no, fly a destroyer if you want to kill frigates
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #292 - 2014-01-26 20:22:25 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    what? no turret ship has generic all-size bonuses. drones do, but as we all know, combat drones are awful, and CCP have been putting a few size-specific tracking/speed bonuses in, for some reason thinking that people don't just use sentries on everything with 75 or more bandwidth.

    Read it again. Rapid light launchers, heavy launchers and heavy assault launchers are all medium-sized weapons. Just as heavy electron, ion and neutron blasters and dual 150mm, 200mm and 250mm rail guns are all medium-sized weapons. It would be like arguing that electron blasters have better tracking but less DPS, so they should be excluded from receiving any hull tracking bonuses.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #293 - 2014-01-26 20:47:42 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    what? no turret ship has generic all-size bonuses. drones do, but as we all know, combat drones are awful, and CCP have been putting a few size-specific tracking/speed bonuses in, for some reason thinking that people don't just use sentries on everything with 75 or more bandwidth.

    Read it again. Rapid light launchers, heavy launchers and heavy assault launchers are all medium-sized weapons. Just as heavy electron, ion and neutron blasters and dual 150mm, 200mm and 250mm rail guns are all medium-sized weapons. It would be like arguing that electron blasters have better tracking but less DPS, so they should be excluded from receiving any hull tracking bonuses.


    cool semantics. if you can explain why they should even exist, it'll be easier to explain why they should get bonuses. you could group rapid launchers in with smartbombs, neutralisers and salvagers for lack of ship bonuses, if it'll make you feel better.

    heavy electrons have about 1/10th the tracking of light neutrons. this is unlike rapid lights, which obviously have the same tracking as lights (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).
    Morwennon
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #294 - 2014-01-26 21:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwennon
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).

    Based on the gallente frigate lineup, which represent a sort of middle ground in terms of sig/speed, faction light missiles apply the following proportions of their raw damage to different MWD frigate targets:

    Interceptor: 35% (15% if the inty overloads its mwd)
    AF: 63%
    Attack frigate: 65%
    Ewar frigate: 75%
    Combat frigate: 81% (63% if the combat frig overloads its mwd)
    Logi frigate: 86%
    EAF: 86%

    LM ships have substantially lower dps than comparable frigate sized LR setups and their damage is much easier to mitigate since all you have to do is switch on your prop mod and move in any direction you like. What exactly is so overpowered here? I know lowsec guys who want to do nothing but roll around in AB-only brawling frigates hate being kited to death by condors, but that's just whining about having your gimmick fit dumpstered by a hard counter rather than being indicative of any broader imbalance.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #295 - 2014-01-26 21:18:00 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    cool semantics. if you can explain why they should even exist, it'll be easier to explain why they should get bonuses. you could group rapid launchers in with smartbombs, neutralisers and salvagers for lack of ship bonuses, if it'll make you feel better.

    heavy electrons have about 1/10th the tracking of light neutrons. this is unlike rapid lights, which obviously have the same tracking as lights (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).

    Several Amarr and Blood Angel hulls receive neutralizer bonuses (Ashimmu, Legion…) and every race has at least one frigate class that receives salvage bonuses (in addition to strategic cruisers, Noctis…) I'm not exactly sure how these relate to the discussion, though - and it still doesn't change the fact that turret-based hulls don't differentiate between individual weapon types, ie: when you get a +25% medium energy weapon bonus, it applies to all medium lasers.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Mike Voidstar
    Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
    #296 - 2014-01-26 21:30:16 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    cool semantics. if you can explain why they should even exist, it'll be easier to explain why they should get bonuses. you could group rapid launchers in with smartbombs, neutralisers and salvagers for lack of ship bonuses, if it'll make you feel better.

    heavy electrons have about 1/10th the tracking of light neutrons. this is unlike rapid lights, which obviously have the same tracking as lights (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).

    Several Amarr and Blood Angel hulls receive neutralizer bonuses (Ashimmu, Legion…) and every race has at least one frigate class that receives salvage bonuses (in addition to strategic cruisers, Noctis…) I'm not exactly sure how these relate to the discussion, though - and it still doesn't change the fact that turret-based hulls don't differentiate between individual weapon types, ie: when you get a +25% medium energy weapon bonus, it applies to all medium lasers.




    Because missiles are not turrets, and their problems and advantages are not turret problems and advantages.

    Most of the relevant use stats are in the ammo of launcher systems. A light missile behaves as a light missile regardless of the hull it is launched from. It's damage application does not change from small hull to medium hull the same way turret systems do.

    The RLML takes a small weapon, and increases it's damage a bit with no decrease in application through rate of fire. Turrets have nothing like that. The turrets that seem like they would be like that have good application for medium weapons, but would be useless if they were light weapons, and do not in fact track light targets anything like a light weapon would.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #297 - 2014-01-26 21:41:30 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    cool semantics. if you can explain why they should even exist, it'll be easier to explain why they should get bonuses. you could group rapid launchers in with smartbombs, neutralisers and salvagers for lack of ship bonuses, if it'll make you feel better.

    heavy electrons have about 1/10th the tracking of light neutrons. this is unlike rapid lights, which obviously have the same tracking as lights (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).

    Several Amarr and Blood Angel hulls receive neutralizer bonuses (Ashimmu, Legion…) and every race has at least one frigate class that receives salvage bonuses (in addition to strategic cruisers, Noctis…) I'm not exactly sure how these relate to the discussion, though - and it still doesn't change the fact that turret-based hulls don't differentiate between individual weapon types, ie: when you get a +25% medium energy weapon bonus, it applies to all medium lasers.


    because the fact that it's called a missile launcher and that it's a medium-sized one isn't a good reason balance-wise for you to get a load of bonuses for it.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #298 - 2014-01-26 22:06:18 UTC
    Morwennon wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).

    Based on the gallente frigate lineup, which represent a sort of middle ground in terms of sig/speed, faction light missiles apply the following proportions of their raw damage to different MWD frigate targets:

    Interceptor: 35% (15% if the inty overloads its mwd)
    AF: 63%
    Attack frigate: 65%
    Ewar frigate: 75%
    Combat frigate: 81% (63% if the combat frig overloads its mwd)
    Logi frigate: 86%
    EAF: 86%

    LM ships have substantially lower dps than comparable frigate sized LR setups and their damage is much easier to mitigate since all you have to do is switch on your prop mod and move in any direction you like. What exactly is so overpowered here? I know lowsec guys who want to do nothing but roll around in AB-only brawling frigates hate being kited to death by condors, but that's just whining about having your gimmick fit dumpstered by a hard counter rather than being indicative of any broader imbalance.


    compare damage at range to turrets, and if you want, look at applied damage to your targets while orbiting in a turret kiter. the numbers you posted are pretty high. also look at volley damage, damage type selection, useful T2 ammo (spike and javelin and whatnot are for operating at different ranges, not for shooting a variety of targets, and are generally just really niche) availability of FOFs (i.e. immunity to damps and ecm), and obviously the immunity to tracking disruptors all missile users enjoy. CCP themselves said it's overpowered, but they're too bad to do anything about it.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #299 - 2014-01-26 22:09:23 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    because the fact that it's called a missile launcher and that it's a medium-sized one isn't a good reason balance-wise for you to get a load of bonuses for it.

    Balance-wise, rapid light missile launchers do less DPS than heavy and heavy assault missiles - even if the bonuses were extended to them.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #300 - 2014-01-26 22:19:01 UTC
    less dps to which class of ships?

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".