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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#221 - 2014-01-23 20:01:34 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Ice Cream Truck wrote:
Drake Hater

I actually love the Drake. That still doesn't change the fact that it sucks...

Yeah, but it wouldn't suck if it got bonuses to RLMLs.

In fact, all of the combat battlecruisers would be awesome if they got bonuses to RLMLs.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#222 - 2014-01-23 21:50:23 UTC
strange that precisions have an explosion radius of 20 ..... sounds a little screwed up too me that
1. it can hit light drones for full damage in terms of sig radius
2. that a cruiser can use ammo that can do Number 1.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-01-23 21:56:09 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
strange that precisions have an explosion radius of 20 ..... sounds a little screwed up too me that
1. it can hit light drones for full damage in terms of sig radius
2. that a cruiser can use ammo that can do Number 1.

Because the extremely limited ammo capacity and terrible reloads on RLML are really going to be wasted shooting someone's random light drones, right? Roll
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-01-23 22:20:39 UTC
El Space Mariachi wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Giving the Drake an RML bonus would take it from garbage to top tier

How is this going to move it to top tier exactly? It's not like RLMLs excel in either PvE or PvP… They're only marginally useful if you use them in a limited capacity as a secondary weapon system. Emphasis on "marginally".


you quite plainly have no idea what you're talking about. RLMLs used to be death incarnate against Frigates, and they're still pretty damn effective in numbers.

but then what would someone who fits their tengus like http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21423348 know about how to effectively use rlmls xD




A tengu has 3 Direct missile bonuses. so if it fts on a tengu and doesn't work it will never work, if it fits on a Tengu and it does work doesn't make it a good weapon.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#225 - 2014-01-23 22:31:50 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
A tengu has 3 Direct missile bonuses. so if it fts on a tengu and doesn't work it will never work, if it fits on a Tengu and it does work doesn't make it a good weapon.

Two out of those three bonuses only apply to HMLs and HAMs. The one that does apply to RLMLs on a Tengu is a 5%/level kinetic missile damage bonus, which is... less than significant.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#226 - 2014-01-23 22:39:05 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
strange that precisions have an explosion radius of 20 ..... sounds a little screwed up too me that
1. it can hit light drones for full damage in terms of sig radius
2. that a cruiser can use ammo that can do Number 1.

Because the extremely limited ammo capacity and terrible reloads on RLML are really going to be wasted shooting someone's random light drones, right? Roll


the point being Light missiles are OP even on frigs ... never-mind cruisers.. RollRollRoll

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Jason Dunham
Andvaranaut Conglomerate
#227 - 2014-01-23 23:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Dunham
Harvey James wrote:


the point being Light missiles are OP even on frigs ... never-mind cruisers.. RollRollRoll


No, they aren't OP. If they were they'd actually be used. With all the frigate buffing that happened in Rubicon, it's perfectly balanced to allow a cruiser to specialize in an anti-frigate role anyway.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#228 - 2014-01-23 23:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Stop thinking eve is built for solo players. If you're in a gang, then heavies are usable. I never said that this is fair, but it seems that ccp want medium missiles, particularly heavies to have support ships to apply their damage.

Explain this. Solo, you have a HML ship.
Solo in a HML fit ship - Go run missions. (or snipe rookie ships caught by a drag bubble)

Funnily enough Eve is probably 1 of the only games around that "used to" allow / encourage solo play, it was a giant sandbox. Sadly it is now becoming less of a sandbox where you can play as you choose and changing to where "more is the only way".


** Well over 200 pages in 2 threads regarding RLML RHML - 1 thing has been said over 2000 times - we don't like or want long reloads..

Time to take the hint maybe?
Is what players want important?
When will the "FUN FACTOR" of RLML, RHML appear?



EVE is moving towards - The biggest blob wins..
In this scenario Burst weapons will work well, reloading will not matter, 10% tidi means you only get to fire every other hour anyway.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#229 - 2014-01-23 23:21:00 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
A tengu has 3 Direct missile bonuses. so if it fts on a tengu and doesn't work it will never work, if it fits on a Tengu and it does work doesn't make it a good weapon.

Two out of those three bonuses only apply to HMLs and HAMs. The one that does apply to RLMLs on a Tengu is a 5%/level kinetic missile damage bonus, which is... less than significant.
Sorry but no; 2 out of 3 directly effect RLML, Accelerated ejection bay - 5% kinetic damage, 7.5% ROF.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
The Sinister
Interbellum
#230 - 2014-01-23 23:53:49 UTC
I think that the Magic Numbers are: 30/ 30

30 second reload and 30 missiles...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2014-01-23 23:55:11 UTC
This thread seems to have degenerated into a sorry tale in which frustrated pilots hurl insults at each other rather than step into their spaceships and try to kill each other.

While you lot were all busy doing that, I rolled two wormholes and baited 2 corps into a limited escalation. It wasn't a big haul, but it was fun.

#1 tackled an industrial until his friend came to help in a (poorly fitted) hurricane.
#2 started stealing someone else's sleeper loot with a noctis until they were so enraged that they warped a maller off the high sec wormhole to engage it, whereupon the the oneiros and malediction landed.

Happy hunting guys

Smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#232 - 2014-01-23 23:59:14 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Burneddi wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
A tengu has 3 Direct missile bonuses. so if it fts on a tengu and doesn't work it will never work, if it fits on a Tengu and it does work doesn't make it a good weapon.

Two out of those three bonuses only apply to HMLs and HAMs. The one that does apply to RLMLs on a Tengu is a 5%/level kinetic missile damage bonus, which is... less than significant.
Sorry but no; 2 out of 3 directly effect RLML, Accelerated ejection bay - 5% kinetic damage, 7.5% ROF.

Actually, I suppose you're right. I checked the stats off of EFT, and it only mentioned assault missiles, heavy assault missiles and heavy missiles, and I suppose the assault missile bonus was changed into a light missile bonus.

The original point is still moot, though -- RLMLs are (according to some, were) extremely versatile, and anyone claiming otherwise must have spent last year docked to miss all the RLML Caracals flying around wrecking everything cruiser-sized or smaller.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#233 - 2014-01-24 00:17:36 UTC
El Space Mariachi wrote:
you quite plainly have no idea what you're talking about. RLMLs used to be death incarnate against Frigates, and they're still pretty damn effective in numbers.

Yes, "used to be" being the operative words here.

Ammzi wrote:
You're ******** and have no idea wot you're talking about.

Bite me.

Burneddi wrote:
Yeah, but it wouldn't suck if it got bonuses to RLMLs.
In fact, all of the combat battlecruisers would be awesome if they got bonuses to RLMLs.

Yes, whatever was I thinking… RLMLs are ideal for PvE and battlecruisers are the perfect platform for PvP roams…

Burneddi wrote:
Two out of those three bonuses only apply to HMLs and HAMs. The one that does apply to RLMLs on a Tengu is a 5%/level kinetic missile damage bonus, which is... less than significant.

Actually, two out of the three Tengu bonuses apply to RLMLs: 25% kinetic damage and 37.5% rate of fire; they don't get the 50% missile velocity bonus. Out of the two the most important is actually the kinetic damage bonus because RLMLs already have a insane rate of fire.

The Sinister wrote:
I think that the Magic Numbers are: 30/ 30
30 second reload and 30 missiles...

No - the magic number here is zero. As in zero more experiments.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#234 - 2014-01-24 00:20:33 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
This thread seems to have degenerated into a sorry tale in which frustrated pilots hurl insults at each other rather than step into their spaceships and try to kill each other.

Don't they always…? There are three types of players participating in this thread: Those who hate missiles and are just here to stir the pot, those that have never used RLMLs and think they sound cool and the third group who knows better (and generated over 5000 posts discussing this at length in the previous thread).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#235 - 2014-01-24 00:39:10 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Yes, whatever was I thinking… RLMLs are ideal for PvE and battlecruisers are the perfect platform for PvP roams…

RLMLs are good for PvE if you're blitzing L1s or L2s in a Caracal or a Cerberus or something.

The reason no one uses battlecruisers is because regular cruisers are comparably so much better. If the Drake were to get bonuses to RLMLs (even if it's just bloody Kinetic damage..), it would likely see use as a support platform for battleship fleets -- being able to fit six launchers and a ton of BCUs, and paints etc. in the mids, you're able to apply solid DPS to targets of all sizes. RLMLs as they are in Inferno 1.1 have extremely good damage already, and as soon as the ammo swapping issue is addressed (even if it weren't, you wouldn't need to swap out of Scourge if you were in a Drake) they'll become very popular again.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
No - the magic number here is zero. As in zero more experiments.

Why on earth? Balancing a game essentially is experimenting. The initial RLML implementation was significantly too versatile and all-purpose for a "niche" weapon system, and as such it's a good thing CCP is at least trying to figure out a better way to do them. Personally I like the burst fire idea (it's RAPID!!!!!!1), except for the ammo swapping issue. The ammo swapping seems to be the major issue people have with it anyway, and as soon as it is addressed I'm sure the weapons system will be in a much better place.

Oh, and Drake needs to have RLML bonuses.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#236 - 2014-01-24 00:56:47 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
RLMLs are good for PvE if you're blitzing L1s or L2s in a Caracal or a Cerberus or something.

So outside of blitzing L1s or L2s in your Caracal, not so much?

Quote:
The reason no one uses battlecruisers is because regular cruisers are comparably so much better. If the Drake were to get bonuses to RLMLs (even if it's just bloody Kinetic damage..), it would likely see use as a support platform for battleship fleets -- being able to fit six launchers and a ton of BCUs, and paints etc. in the mids, you're able to apply solid DPS to targets of all sizes. RLMLs as they are in Inferno 1.1 have extremely good damage already, and as soon as the ammo swapping issue is addressed (even if it weren't, you wouldn't need to swap out of Scourge if you were in a Drake) they'll become very popular again.

I thought it was also because cruisers were substantially cheaper, no? When was the last time you saw missile-based doctrines rocking the alliances list?

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Why on earth? Balancing a game essentially is experimenting.

For the umpteenth time… RLMLs and the 1st iteration of RHMLs were fine. It was the insane ammunition capacity that simply needed to be dialed back. Just a casual glance at the raw numbers was enough of a dead giveaway where any adjustments needed to be made… I have no problem with including RLMLs to battlecruisers. That's still not going to fix RLMLs or the affected battlecruisers...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#237 - 2014-01-24 01:49:53 UTC
Jason Dunham wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


the point being Light missiles are OP even on frigs ... never-mind cruisers.. RollRollRoll


No, they aren't OP. If they were they'd actually be used. With all the frigate buffing that happened in Rubicon, it's perfectly balanced to allow a cruiser to specialize in an anti-frigate role anyway.


no .... the role of anti frigs fall on destroyers not cruisers allowing some too have the option of being decent against frigs aswell as against targets of the same size or bigger is the intent here..... the missiles themselves are OP in multiple ways but alas the missiles themselves are only part of the issue the other part is the launchers themselves ...

if light missiles were balanced would they need RLML's to have a 35 second reload time and a 20 missile clip???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2014-01-24 03:18:45 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Sal Landry wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
strange that precisions have an explosion radius of 20 ..... sounds a little screwed up too me that
1. it can hit light drones for full damage in terms of sig radius
2. that a cruiser can use ammo that can do Number 1.

Because the extremely limited ammo capacity and terrible reloads on RLML are really going to be wasted shooting someone's random light drones, right? Roll


the point being Light missiles are OP even on frigs ... never-mind cruisers.. RollRollRoll


I love how any missile that doesn't totally suck is somehow overpowered. That kind of thinking is why most missiles are total trash.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#239 - 2014-01-24 03:43:07 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
I love how any missile that doesn't totally suck is somehow overpowered. That kind of thinking is why most missiles are total trash.

The only thing that brings a smile to my face is how hard drones are going to get nerfed later this year. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#240 - 2014-01-24 04:25:14 UTC
Frigates are actually much worse off against the burst rlm than against the original rlm. Anything with the level of tank that a common assault frigate or cruiser has can generally outlast the first clip of rlm and achieve tackle or leave. T1 frigates are easily instagibbed by the 'high dps' and then the rlm user is stuck for roughly 2 jam cycles of not being able to shoot anything.

The only thing overpowered about the original rlm was the low fittings allowing you to go triple lse on caracals and lse/xlasbs on cerbs. If Rise was serious about not making sweeping changes, he would've altered the fitting first and seen how balanced it was instead of changing it all to an entirely new and relatively untested mechanic. Not to mention the glaring flaw of being unable to change to a different ammo type if the fight changes without taking over half a minute to do so.