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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-01-21 19:31:10 UTC
Mizhir wrote:


Hmm, good points. And Gypsio also had some good points with the PG.

Caracals weren't the only ships that was strong with the RLML. The Cerb and ScytheFI was beasts as well.

However the new RLML system opens up for new possibilities and interesting gameplay so I still think they shouldn't trash it. Instead they should work on bringing the HAM and HML back in line again.




I'm not against a burst system on it self, just not for removing the other system.

not now anyway, not before missiles as whole are ballanced.

this range of ballance rounds wheren't realy soft on missiles. (cruise got a good buff though)

most smaller ships gained speed (pianfull for all missiles)

Heavy's got a big nerf, where a smal nerf and a look at those power hulls was pobbably more appropriate.

meanwhile all meduim turrets got boosted.

Torpeados's are also a serious problem, mask by the succes of the stealth bombers. (which need 3 direct missile bonuses and a covert ops cloak without targeting delay to work.)

I think a burst weapon would do great when you fit them on hulls of the same size. Kestrel with a rlml, then there is a real choise in tactic instead of a niece.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#102 - 2014-01-21 19:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Mizhir wrote:
Instead they should work on bringing the HAM and HML back in line again.


Paradoxically, if they had just fixed HAMs and heavies in the first place, RLMLs would never have looked overpowered. The truly stupid thing was that you could do more damage to everything up to battlecruisers using the missile-equivalent of... well, the lowest DPS missile choice. So I can't hit a Vagabond for over 250dps with HAMs from a cruiser hull; meanwhile, in turret-land I'm still ripping destroyers (and anything bigger) to shreds with pulse Apocs that can hit to 90km with Scorch for 400 dps. Seems like missiles got the really, really short end of the stick to me.

If missiles worked more sensibly, with HAM's and heavies having similar damage application-- IE both appling near-max DPS to other cruisers and bigger, but losing application vs smaller ships-- but doing different amounts of DPS at different ranges, then classical RLMLs could return to their old "lowest DPS, best application" niche rather than simply being better than the other two launchers for shooting anything with a sig smaller than a battleship. I'd imagine the same would go for torps/cruises/RHMLs, given the graphs of BS launcher damage to various-sized targets that came out during the last threadnaught process... RHMLs were again better 90% of the time.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-01-21 19:37:48 UTC
It's a partial rollback of a wrong move; I guess that's something.

I'm pretty sure this was said in the original thread by others if not by me; rollback the rapid launcher changes to broadly how they were, and introduce a new range of "salvo launchers" across the missile range which work along the same 'high burst, modest capacity, long reload' principles you tried to introduce with your original RLML changes. That way, you introduce the new concept whilst giving rather than removing options from your players.

For added awesomeness, or at least comedy, include Citadel launchers as well.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#104 - 2014-01-21 19:41:41 UTC
I always thought the purpose of these rapid missile launchers was to kill an enemy in one loading cycle i.e. reloading should take place between battles, not during them. I still understand the issue of changing ammo types before a fight. Maybe something where you have a 10 second reload time if you have a full "clip," but a 35 second reload time if you've fired any would help in this aspect.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#105 - 2014-01-21 19:46:49 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks


During which you completely ignored the existence of the other thread, avoiding commenting in it totally.

Quote:
we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them,


Because Stockholm Syndrome is good, kids.

Quote:
so, rather than make drastic changes so quickly


Like you did with these things in the first place, you mean?

Quote:
we want to give it more time and see what happens with usage and feedback over the next couple months.


So you're officially abandoning this new thread, too?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#106 - 2014-01-21 19:55:23 UTC
It would be a lot better if rapid launchers were identical RoF & damage to non-rapid launchers, save for a much larger bonus only when overheated, and a much higher heat tolerance.

Just a thought.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2014-01-21 20:08:53 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
It would be a lot better if rapid launchers were identical RoF & damage to non-rapid launchers, save for a much larger bonus only when overheated, and a much higher heat tolerance.

Just a thought.


A really terrible thought.
stoicfaux
#108 - 2014-01-21 20:09:03 UTC
Garrett Howe wrote:
I always thought the purpose of these rapid missile launchers was to kill an enemy in one loading cycle i.e. reloading should take place between battles, not during them. I still understand the issue of changing ammo types before a fight. Maybe something where you have a 10 second reload time if you have a full "clip," but a 35 second reload time if you've fired any would help in this aspect.

But then things would die too quickly and everyone would fly glass cannons full of Rapid Launchers.

In my useless opinion, Rapid Launchers should be a utility item (i.e. doesn't require a launcher slot,) something akin to a one shot weapon that burst fires a slew of missiles at a critical moment in the fight.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2014-01-21 20:14:02 UTC
This is exactly what I asked for so I am really happy.
I think that these changes are great.
Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#110 - 2014-01-21 20:14:45 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Garrett Howe wrote:
I always thought the purpose of these rapid missile launchers was to kill an enemy in one loading cycle i.e. reloading should take place between battles, not during them. I still understand the issue of changing ammo types before a fight. Maybe something where you have a 10 second reload time if you have a full "clip," but a 35 second reload time if you've fired any would help in this aspect.

But then things would die too quickly and everyone would fly glass cannons full of Rapid Launchers.

In my useless opinion, Rapid Launchers should be a utility item (i.e. doesn't require a launcher slot,) something akin to a one shot weapon that burst fires a slew of missiles at a critical moment in the fight.


But if a full load of heavy missiles only does say 50k damage, anything with more health than that (strong BC or BS) is secure, or at least better off in the long run. RHML makes you stronger vs cruisers, weaker vs BC and BS. Similarly, RLML makes you stronger vs frigates, weaker vs other cruisers. I think that is balanced enough.
Capqu
Half Empty
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#111 - 2014-01-21 20:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
whats the point in shooting if you don't have the right ammo loaded

rlmls are so garbage right now for that raisin alone

and rate of fire bonuses just don't work with rlmls. so thats the most popular rlml boat out [caracal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Mario Putzo
#112 - 2014-01-21 20:28:54 UTC
Nice! thank god. 40 seconds was gay...now 35 seconds isn't much better but at least I do get a few more shots. So frustrating watching a ship rep from nearly 0 shield or armor all the way back to full while I am reloading. Thanks for taking my complaint the other day seriously!
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#113 - 2014-01-21 21:00:53 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There's a common misconception that the old RLMLs were "OP". They were relatively good at applying damage to small and medium targets, which is as it should be - since this is a light weapon system after all. Missile players have typically far fewer choices for weapon systems than lasers, hybrids and projectiles - and the RLML and RHML filled these gaps nicely. If there was any problem with the original RLMLs it was that they had an insane ammunition capacity - somewhere around 85 for T2 launchers if memory serves me.


Yah, the clip size on them was insane. I could bring a thousand rounds and exhaust them in one engagement. Every reload was 400 rounds. They weren't kidding when they said it was a cruiser-sized weapon using small ammo.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Rengas
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#114 - 2014-01-21 22:02:21 UTC
Dislikers gonna dislike.

Personally I don't mind spending most of a fight waiting for my weapons to reload.

Gives me time to catch up on paperwork and sportsball scores.
Gorski Car
#115 - 2014-01-21 22:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorski Car
CCP Rise you choose to ignore 200 pages of people telling you what's wrong with rapid lights and it's not rapid lights. It's the fact that hmls are **** and links remove way 2 much missile dmg.

Also rhmls are still so bad cuz they are using a ****** ammo type.

Collect this post
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#116 - 2014-01-21 23:17:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We tried a few versions and all of them had enough issues that we didn't feel comfortable deploying. For 1.1 we are going to do the following:

  • All rapid missile launchers will have 35 second reload timers rather than 40 seconds
  • Rapid Light Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 20 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 19 missiles per magazine for tech 1
  • Rapid Heavy Missile launchers will have their capacity increased to 25 missiles per magazine for tech 2 and 24 missiles per magazine for tech 1

    • This change is meant to increase their power slightly, and make them feel a little better to use by cutting down the reload time.

    Any chance we can keep the reload time at 40 seconds and just buff the ammunition by 55% instead? 28 rounds for T2 RLMLs and 36 rounds for T2 RHMLs. The overall DPS is still less than the original RLMLs and 1st iteration of RHMLs, and 35 seconds is basically 40 seconds for all intents and purposes anyway. Also, is it possible to get light and heavy Defender missiles added as support ammunition to both launchers?

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Hasikan Miallok
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #117 - 2014-01-21 23:19:59 UTC
    As it stands I only use them on fits with those semi-useless "spare" missile slots on ships designed for something else.

    I have never fit them to a dedicated missile ship. Whilst the idea of a "burst" weapon has some merit it is hard to justify dropping down a size category in your main weapon system and then giving yourself 35-40 seconds of no damage on top of that. A burst system that fired the same missiles as the ships normal weapons would be a different matter altogether (though potentially very OP)


    At least these proposed changes will be a step in the right direction.
    Hatsumi Kobayashi
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #118 - 2014-01-21 23:40:41 UTC
    Quote:
    We were looking at a really wide range of options for these systems since the initial reaction was so negative, but over the last few weeks we started seeing more and more people adjust to using them and even start liking them


    citation needed

    No sig.
    Hasikan Miallok
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #119 - 2014-01-21 23:43:26 UTC
    You could of course drop the separate launchers altogether and just make them a scripted mode of standard launchers.
    Omega Crendraven
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #120 - 2014-01-22 00:22:37 UTC
    Bringing back old Rapid lights