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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1881 - 2014-01-21 20:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternity Mistseeker
Allus Nova wrote:
This means that FULLY upgraded, you're going to get 960,000 isk worth of bounty for that single mob.
If you instead choose to do nothing, you're getting 950,000 with no reward.


The LP is in addition to the 80% bounty and the "risked" isk in the ESS - else i am reading this badly wrong...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1882 - 2014-01-21 20:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Allus Nova wrote:
Desmond Strickler wrote:
You nullbears aren't giving this a chance. I think this is a great way to get more people involved in null sec in the form of small-gang combat. Now instead of docking up each time a small gang of pirates come through your system, maybe you could actually fight them over something small, but valuable.

Sure you don't have to fight the pirates and it wouldn't be much of a deal if they did loot your ESS, but it does give you an incentive to fight and I can see the ESS as a wonderful content creator for a lot of small raiding gangs in null sec. This doesn't limit null sec to blob v. blob action anymore, or limit small gang fighting to certain regions of null sec (i.e Syndicate).

And if you don't want pirates raiding you and such, then you don't have to put up



OK except that you're misunderstanding that with the cost of the unit, and the pitiful increase in payout (using the fully upgraded value of 200 LP for a 1,000,000 isk mob) you'll end up with 800,000 in bounties, and 200 LP will mean that you have NO reason to use this. With any huge influx in LP like this represents, you'll really end up getting like 800 isk per LP or less, so around 160,000 isk worth of LP. Not the 260,000 that CCP is suggesting now.

This means that FULLY upgraded, you're going to get 960,000 isk worth of bounty for that single mob.
If you instead choose to do nothing, you're getting 950,000 with no reward.

So...is 10k isk worth anything to you?
CCP needs to adjust the LP reward upwards to compensate for the drop in LP value which this will result in.


Your math skills are awkward:

Go rat 500m isk in rat bounties.

Without the ESS, you will receive 475m isk.

With the ESS, you will be guaranteed 400m isk and 75-100k LP. At a 1000 isk/LP ratio, you break even (less the cost of the ESS).
With the ESS, if you successfully cash out, you gain an additional 100-125m in isk.

So, worse case, you lose the ESS (25m) and have to convert LP to Isk but still have very similar total revenue.
Best case, you gain 25-50m isk and 75-100k LP above and beyond the 475m you'd earn had you not bothered with the ESS.

That is you walking away with profit under most situations, and if you can't be asked to cope with the "complexity" you can simply not use it.

*edit* Your suggesting that as LP falls, the 75-100k LP isn't worth the 75m isk you RISKED to potentially receive 100-125m at the end of the day.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1883 - 2014-01-21 20:48:46 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Go rat 500m isk in rat bounties.


How long would that take?
Allus Nova
#1884 - 2014-01-21 20:49:19 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Allus Nova wrote:
Desmond Strickler wrote:
You nullbears aren't giving this a chance. I think this is a great way to get more people involved in null sec in the form of small-gang combat. Now instead of docking up each time a small gang of pirates come through your system, maybe you could actually fight them over something small, but valuable.

Sure you don't have to fight the pirates and it wouldn't be much of a deal if they did loot your ESS, but it does give you an incentive to fight and I can see the ESS as a wonderful content creator for a lot of small raiding gangs in null sec. This doesn't limit null sec to blob v. blob action anymore, or limit small gang fighting to certain regions of null sec (i.e Syndicate).

And if you don't want pirates raiding you and such, then you don't have to put up



OK except that you're misunderstanding that with the cost of the unit, and the pitiful increase in payout (using the fully upgraded value of 200 LP for a 1,000,000 isk mob) you'll end up with 800,000 in bounties, and 200 LP will mean that you have NO reason to use this. With any huge influx in LP like this represents, you'll really end up getting like 800 isk per LP or less, so around 160,000 isk worth of LP. Not the 260,000 that CCP is suggesting now.

This means that FULLY upgraded, you're going to get 960,000 isk worth of bounty for that single mob.
If you instead choose to do nothing, you're getting 950,000 with no reward.

So...is 10k isk worth anything to you?
CCP needs to adjust the LP reward upwards to compensate for the drop in LP value which this will result in.


Your math skills are awkward:

Go rat 500m isk in rat bounties.

Without the ESS, you will receive 475m isk.

With the ESS, you will be guaranteed 400m isk and 75-100k LP. At a 1000 isk/LP ratio, you break even (less the cost of the ESS).
With the ESS, if you successfully cash out, you gain an additional 100-125m in isk.

So, worse case, you lose the ESS (25m) and have to convert LP to Isk but still have very similar total revenue.
Best case, you gain 25-50m isk and 75-100k LP above and beyond the 475m you'd earn had you not bothered with the ESS.

That is you walking away with profit under most situations, and if you can't be asked to cope with the "complexity" you can simply not use it.

*edit* Your suggesting that as LP falls, the 75-100k LP isn't worth the 75m isk you RISKED to potentially receive 100-125m at the end of the day.



OK, what I'm saying is that LP's won't be 1000 isk per LP if this thing is being used, it will be closer to 800, possibly 500 if supply of faction items greatly outstrips demand.

So yes, at 1000 isk/LP you break even. At 500-800 isk per LP you get shafted.

This doesn't count any loss of anything, the cost of the unit, or the risk involved.

Why would you risk losing so much for so little reward.
Omarosas
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1885 - 2014-01-21 20:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Omarosas
Desmond Strickler wrote:
You nullbears aren't giving this a chance. I think this is a great way to get more people involved in null sec in the form of small-gang combat. Now instead of docking up each time a small gang of pirates come through your system, maybe you could actually fight them over something small, but valuable.

Sure you don't have to fight the pirates and it wouldn't be much of a deal if they did loot your ESS, but it does give you an incentive to fight and I can see the ESS as a wonderful content creator for a lot of small raiding gangs in null sec. This doesn't limit null sec to blob v. blob action anymore, or limit small gang fighting to certain regions of null sec (i.e Syndicate).

And if you don't want pirates raiding you and such, then you don't have to put up



ESS will be banned by alliances in null sec to avoid drama between it's pilots. Null sec is not the place for small gang, just ask anyone in the sea of blues. If you want small gang, then go to low sec enjoy some FW.

This "Extra Stupid Structure" is just an excuse to nerf null sec ratting income AGAIN. The whole thing makes you wounder how much bull will CCP add for people to start giving up.
Desmond Strickler
#1886 - 2014-01-21 21:00:32 UTC
Omarosas wrote:
Desmond Strickler wrote:
You nullbears aren't giving this a chance. I think this is a great way to get more people involved in null sec in the form of small-gang combat. Now instead of docking up each time a small gang of pirates come through your system, maybe you could actually fight them over something small, but valuable.

Sure you don't have to fight the pirates and it wouldn't be much of a deal if they did loot your ESS, but it does give you an incentive to fight and I can see the ESS as a wonderful content creator for a lot of small raiding gangs in null sec. This doesn't limit null sec to blob v. blob action anymore, or limit small gang fighting to certain regions of null sec (i.e Syndicate).

And if you don't want pirates raiding you and such, then you don't have to put up



ESS will be banned by alliances in null sec to avoid drama between it's pilots. Null sec is not the place for small gang, just ask anyone in the sea of blues. If you want small gang, then go to low sec enjoy some FW.

This "Extra Stupid Structure" is just an excuse to nerf null sec ratting income AGAIN. The whole thing makes you wounder how much bull will CCP add for people to start giving up.


Alliances can ban them, doesn't mean they still can't use them.

[b]Part-Time Moon Bear and Full-Time Black Guy

"My other dread is a Swaglafar"[/b]
Master Odysseus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1887 - 2014-01-21 21:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Odysseus
The new changes are welcome.

Now I can see the risk Vs reward factor being balanced to a point that this new unit could be usuable (even if personally I may decide not to use it cuz the whole go to empire, LP converting to mods/etc to sell them to get isk to go back to 0.0 is more of a hassle and I'd be better off keep on ratting anyways but w/e...)

And as per the prons and cons, I could say that what others can do to our ratting alts we can also do to their ratting alts and create some content (pew pew) on the way, so not bad. Example, the same way we all know the "locals" will never form a gang to hit the intruders of the ESS (cuz hey, even if they are all willing to fight (yeah right), there will be no willing FC, join comms, etc), the same way "their" locals will not form a gang to fight us when we intrude their ESS. Anyways...

However, the only thing that I find negative is the "take all" option. We live scattered all over our sov place, with 3-4-7 other corps in our system, we barelly know these guys (who are alts in majority) except the occasional o/ or get off my anomaly and therefore the amount of blue on blue hassle / griefing that will be created from the possibility of players farming the "take all" option could be significant. What can we do Vs those? Blue KOS-ing? Escalating to corp Vs corp hassles within the alliance?

Not to mention what will happen if someone deploys ESS in a system that the majority didn't want to. What will happen then? Shoot a "blue" structure? KOS the "blue" who does that? His corp?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1888 - 2014-01-21 21:02:43 UTC
If you want a desirable carrot, make the ESS close the gap between crappy nullsec truesec and the good systems.

Make it *More* beneficial to use this item in these less desirable systems with greater payouts or better spawns or something.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1889 - 2014-01-21 21:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyn Pharoh
Querns wrote:

On another note, these calculations have a slight wrinkle in the Drone regions. Drone regions, for whatever reason, generate vastly larger numbers of combat sites. I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but anecdotal reference from my personal experience hunting ratters in these regions, along with the anecdotal evidence from my confederates in Goonswarm Federation doing similar things suggests that up to ten Drone Horde sites (the top tier combat site in these regions) can spawn at once, compared to a maximum of three Sanctums in other pirate faction regions. This incongruency may be worth visiting as well.

I was not aware of such a functional imbalance. Perhaps the bleak escalation rate and rewards, accentuated by no other drops of any kind, with zero Officer spawns/drops (though the rare escalation can produce Overseer's Effects?) has something to do with the perception that top ranked Drone Combat sites are somehow of the same value as other Combat sites. I have NO idea how escalations work in Pirate Nullsec space, its been several rewrites since I lived there, but I can say that you have to grind INNUMERABLE hordes to get any form of escalation, and it requires reasonably significant tanking and DPS to complete those escalations. I've only ran the last few I've gotten out of sheer boredom, as the ISK, ALLOY and Overseer Effects (without any other potential drops at all to consider) hardly pays out better (if at all) than the same 2-4 ships choosing not to take a roadtrip, ignoring the Escalation and just running more Hordes.

I don't know if stacking more top tier sites into low Truesec is marvelous, but raising the lower end may be a fair deal. As it is, so much space is empty, it's really terribly sad. Getting more space to a livable status would be good for all. Perhaps the ESS could interact directly with the Pirate Detection array, Generating a top tier site or two as it raises the LP reward? Cap it to add just a couple sites, making lower end systems scale a bit better, but making top end systems fully able to pack a small gang sized fleet worth of folks grinding the ISK needed to support their Nullsec lifestyle?

Drone regions are still scaling horrifically with the new mechanics. The MTU is useless and the ESS is an outright attack on an already stressed system. Roaming gangs will strike out to Drones first, realizing those residents have the most to lose with this added content. Finish balancing the 100% bounty rats there with generic loot drops and then the ESS will at least pressure all of Nullsec simultaneously, without one sector of space getting all the worst that recent added 'content' has to offer.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1890 - 2014-01-21 21:08:48 UTC
Wow! So CCP actually messed with the reward system. I guess I was wrong to by cynical about that ever changing. Leaving in the 5% decrease in unenchanced isk generation from the current level is certain to keep a number of people angry. Nerfing the value of navy LP is likely to make others angry. I don't mind either of these changes.

At first glance the mechanics of the ESS are improving. Forcing people to stay in range of the ESS should considerably reduce the chance of theft via interceptor. The ESS's point makes it more dangerous. The 180 seconds might not be enough time to actually mount the defense desired.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#1891 - 2014-01-21 21:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
* Volume increased from 150 to 200
* Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
* Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.




That sounds good.
Actually, this is just a tiny bit away from something that could be REALLY fun and generate conflicts!

The 20 seconds to share are a bit short.
I imagine I am the ratter. I will set this thing up as far as possible away from any gate - maybe that is 50 AU. Even an Interceptor will not reach the ESS in time. And i'll be sitting there in a disposable ship, heavy tanked, worthless alt.
Local+ -> Alt+Tab -> Share. Problem solved.

1. A warp speed enhanced frigate or an interceptor should have 3-5 seconds time to check the system and still be able to reach the ESS in time.
2. The timer has to stop when more than 1 ship is within bubble range+5km. (like FW site timers) Otherwise it's pointless. The alt will just sit in a tanked ship that does not die instantly.

Then the 180 seconds timer is also a bit short.
Assuming the ratters want to fight for their money, they have to form a response fleet. Even if they have the ships ready, they might need to get them from next system or just check the situation.

Suggestion:
Give us the hacking game! Take all takes 300 seconds, a successful hack takes just 180 second. Failed hack yields a 10k dmg explosion and the option to try again.
There might be meta versions of the ESS that have more difficult levels of hacking boards and do more dmg if they set off the explosion. Pirate

So now the aggressors have a reasonable time window to intercept, the ratters have time to react, what else?

How about a 2 hour reinforce timer on an ESS?
->benefit for ratters: their ESS does not get blown up by every lazy roaming gang (-25mil)
->benefit for the roaming gang: they can deploy these in ratting systems and come back later
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1892 - 2014-01-21 21:27:35 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Go rat 500m isk in rat bounties.


How long would that take?


Depends on a lot of factors. I've heard nullsec ratting earns anywhere from 30-150m isk an hour.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1893 - 2014-01-21 21:31:12 UTC
I'm going from "scrap the ESS" to "table it".

You need to review whether the 5% nerf to base bounties is necessary - every metric and your own economist tells you it isn't.
You need to review whether a game mechanic that players are forced to use by way of carrot and stick is good for a sandbox game that thrives on emergent gameplay.
You need to review whether nullsec systems have appropriate ratting capacities for the amount of time and effort it takes to upgrade them.
You need to review the quality of cosmic anomalies and whether some of them need to be adjusted to be worth doing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Omarosas
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1894 - 2014-01-21 21:37:39 UTC
Desmond Strickler wrote:
Omarosas wrote:
Desmond Strickler wrote:
You nullbears aren't giving this a chance. I think this is a great way to get more people involved in null sec in the form of small-gang combat. Now instead of docking up each time a small gang of pirates come through your system, maybe you could actually fight them over something small, but valuable.

Sure you don't have to fight the pirates and it wouldn't be much of a deal if they did loot your ESS, but it does give you an incentive to fight and I can see the ESS as a wonderful content creator for a lot of small raiding gangs in null sec. This doesn't limit null sec to blob v. blob action anymore, or limit small gang fighting to certain regions of null sec (i.e Syndicate).

And if you don't want pirates raiding you and such, then you don't have to put up



ESS will be banned by alliances in null sec to avoid drama between it's pilots. Null sec is not the place for small gang, just ask anyone in the sea of blues. If you want small gang, then go to low sec enjoy some FW.

This "Extra Stupid Structure" is just an excuse to nerf null sec ratting income AGAIN. The whole thing makes you wounder how much bull will CCP add for people to start giving up.


Alliances can ban them, doesn't mean they still can't use them.



Sure, they will get to use it once before they get kicked out and blacklisted for breaking alliance rules/policy...yeah, that works out just fine.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1895 - 2014-01-21 21:39:44 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Turelus wrote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Given what CCP has said in the past about the horrors involved in coding mission agents into outposts I assume this is technically infeasible especially for a point release.


At some point in time CCP will have to look at the scary old legacy code. They can't keep releasing new stuff forever without fixing the old stuff like mission agents being tied to NPC station offices, and POSes being written by C'thulu.

It's like at home, I can continue building new extensions to my house to provide a better living experience but at some point I have to empty out the fridge and deal with the rotting sludge in the bottom of the vegetable crisper.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#1896 - 2014-01-21 21:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
Quote:
Why have you maintained the 5% nerf to bounties even when it was demonstrated that it was unnecessary and that your reasons for doing so were utterly false?


Nothing of the sort was demonstrated. The closest it came was a months-old statement that had no numbers and didn't account for changing circumstances.
Quote:

Saying "we're going to take away 5% of your bounties to force you to use this new module" is not sandbox at all. It's not player-driven content. It's an artificially forced game mechanic.


"Phrases like 'you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox' have the same amount of meaning as 'If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot.' " - Alara IonStorm

You aren't being forced to do anything. The game is full of possible actions and incentives to do them (or not). Sometimes the incentives get changed.
---
Well, this module is in a state where it might be used willingly, but it still has a lot of issues. For one, it's not really worth fighting over. The cost of ESS itself makes it more or less disposable - a handful of ratters will cover its replacement cost in a few hours max. The money contained in it, while it would be inconvenient to lose, will probably not be inconvenient enough to justify actually risking ships more expensive than a destroyer. I think the best way to encourage people to save their ESS from theft/destruction is to make losing it or being ripped off have a major impact on future income, i.e. you lose some accrued multiplier to LP gains that takes time to get and can't be obtained by simply plonking down a new one.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1897 - 2014-01-21 21:51:06 UTC
Allus Nova wrote:


OK, what I'm saying is that LP's won't be 1000 isk per LP if this thing is being used, it will be closer to 800, possibly 500 if supply of faction items greatly outstrips demand.

So yes, at 1000 isk/LP you break even. At 500-800 isk per LP you get shafted.

This doesn't count any loss of anything, the cost of the unit, or the risk involved.

Why would you risk losing so much for so little reward.


This is EvE, people min/max all over the place, and this is simply a tool for people to min/max on. Besides, it is no different than officer fitting your Golem to get an extra 5% dps. The main difference though, this investment might actually pay for itself in a timely fashion!


Techpriest Arcterran
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1898 - 2014-01-21 21:54:45 UTC
This module does not create any incentive to move into 0.0. I'm a new player with my sights set on eventually moving to 0.0, explain how this should encourage me to do so?

LP generator? I can earn these in the safety of high sec.
ISK nerf? I can earn ISK in the safety of high sec and given the tone of this thread, make more ISK in high sec.
Overly complicated module with excess variables? I get it, this is EvE, but keep it simple once in a while.

Please enlighten the new players out there.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1899 - 2014-01-21 22:01:30 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
If you want a desirable carrot, make the ESS close the gap between crappy nullsec truesec and the good systems.

Make it *More* beneficial to use this item in these less desirable systems with greater payouts or better spawns or something.


To be honest, this is the only thing that would even remotely make me think about using this module. If i can get an extra haven or a sanctum in my craptacular ratting system I might put myself through the hassle that is the rest of this module.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1900 - 2014-01-21 22:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
Why have you maintained the 5% nerf to bounties even when it was demonstrated that it was unnecessary and that your reasons for doing so were utterly false?

Nothing of the sort was demonstrated.
…other than the person saying it retracting it and the only other statement available being that it is not necessary — now, or ever.

Quote:
"Phrases like 'you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox' have the same amount of meaning as 'If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot.' " - Alara IonStorm
…but that's not what he's saying either. He's saying that using a nerf to give meaning to tools is not the sandbox way of introducing new tools. The sandbox way is to just toss out the tool and see how it's being used — not create a problem that only the tool can solve.

He's entirely correct and his argument does not fit into Alara's translation.