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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1901 - 2014-01-21 22:27:32 UTC
Great Idea from an alliance mate:

Pirate Faction LP for killing drones
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1902 - 2014-01-21 22:28:26 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#1903 - 2014-01-21 22:28:36 UTC
Quote:
The sandbox way is to just toss out the tool and see how it's being used — not create a problem that only the tool can solve.

That's just really badly conceived game design. People finding creative uses for new additions is fine, but the devs need to have a clear and accurate idea of how something new fits into the present state of things, how the game may need to be changed to accommodate it, why it is being added, and how it may impact the game in the long term. Otherwise you get remote doomsdays.

James' premise is completely wrong. The 5% reduction isn't to give meaning to the ESS and in no way forces anyone to use it. There's no forced mechanic at all, and the flailing about the sandbox is nonsense. I mean, I suppose he is technically right: the ESS isn't player-driven content. But then, neither are any of the other mechanics in EVE, because player-driven content, oddly enough, comes from players and not mechanics. The underlying claim, that the ESS is not appropriate for a sandbox game, is crap.

Quote:
…other than the person saying it retracting it and the only other statement available being that it is not necessary — now, or ever.

Can you provide an actual quote for any of this? Because the closest thing I can find is SoniClover saying the 5% is not to offset increased income from the ESS but to modulate inflation.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#1904 - 2014-01-21 22:37:27 UTC
I have a related question. The ratting that it happening: Is this assumed to be a solo activity? I'm just curious if null ratting is done in cooperation with someone or if it's all solo?

If it's solo, maybe this is part of the intended effect? Maybe CCP wants to see more small groups working together? The other thing is the whole PvE vs PvP fitting on ships. Is this purely an 'efficiency' thing? As is, a PvE fit lets you kill the rat's faster, resulting in a more efficient income?

It would be nice if we could fit our ships for PvP and do PvE activity. Then again, if you are fighting in a group, a PvP ship shouldn't hinder you much against rats?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1905 - 2014-01-21 23:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Milton Middleson wrote:
[the devs need to have a clear and accurate idea of how something new fits into the present state of things, how the game may need to be changed to accommodate it, why it is being added, and how it may impact the game in the long term.
…and the problem is that the ESS and bounty nerf doesn't offer any of that.

Instead, it's a single pair — a problem and a solution to that problem — airdropped into the middle of the game without any regard for or reasoning behind why or how either the problem or the solution will fit into the game. Each without the other is meaningless and pointless since its only purpose is to fit into that single duality.

That is something completely different than looking at the overall game and see gaps that some interesting tweak or addition could modify. It specifically doesn't fit into the present state of things, which is why a new state has to be set: so the ESS can fit in. Never mind that the new state itself might not fit at all.

Quote:
The 5% reduction isn't to give meaning to the ESS and in no way forces anyone to use it.
Sure it is and sure it does. The nerf serves no other purpose than to give the ESS a use; the ESS ultimately serves no other purpose than to nullify the nerf. If you want your income to remain the same, you are forced to used the ESS — after all, that's it's entire purpose.

Quote:
the flailing about the sandbox is nonsense.
No, it really isn't. It's a CCP-manufactured solution solely there to solve a CCP-manufactured problem. Neither has anything to do with the players, other than create pointless and needless busywork for them. That is pretty much the exact opposite of giving players tools to alter their environment to suit their taste: it is CCP altering the environment in a single prescribed way, and demanding that players change it back — also in a single prescribed way.

Quote:
Can you provide an actual quote for any of this? Because the closest thing I can find is SoniClover saying the 5% is not to offset increased income from the ESS but to modulate inflation.
Yes, that's the one, but that's not what he's actually saying. He's saying that the whole thing is not really there to alter inflation; that the ESS itself was being given useless rewards because they wanted to make sure it wasn't too much. The reason for the 5% nerf was left unmentioned other than to say that the only reason people could think of (since his own posts had pretty explicitly offered it as its only interpretation) and that they dismissed because it made no sense, was indeed not the reason for the nerf.

Specifically, when asked why on earth a 5% nerf was needed, he first said it was there to minimise inflation. When challenged on this point and offered numerous reasons and evidence to disprove it, he let slip that reducing inflation wasn't actually the reason, just like all the evidence was suggesting at that point… and no other reason was offered instead. This means the nerf current stands without any reason whatsoever to exist, which leaves only one option: to give the ESS meaning and use.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1906 - 2014-01-21 23:35:57 UTC
Mah Boobz wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
* Volume increased from 150 to 200
* Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
* Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.




From dumb to dumber.
Thanks for devaluing all 4 empire navy's LP.
It's not like the people that grinded standings and missions for LP should be rewarded, naa screw that, make it so EVERY RAT IN NULL gives out navy LP!!

Edit: running numbers, that's about 15k LP per hour @ BASE, more when it upgrades. (based on 30mil ticks)
(based on 1000 isk per lp ratio, that's 15 mil extra per hour, or 16.6% of your ratting income) mileage may very.
Tell me about how you want to avoid inflation again?


It does seem like the more they do to tweak the module the worse it gets. It's still a bad idea though and should be dropped. It still feels contrived.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1907 - 2014-01-21 23:49:57 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Turelus wrote:

More ideas on how to make the ESS great.

Is there any way CCP could allow NullSec entities to rent LP stores for their stations/outposts as well? maybe like a per month office fee to the Navy. It seems a shame that we need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in and it would be a damn amazing update if we could buy our implants in our space.

Given what CCP has said in the past about the horrors involved in coding mission agents into outposts I assume this is technically infeasible especially for a point release.



LP stores show up as a station service, so it shouldn't be too hard to add to outposts, given that services can currently be added or disabled.





Also, to all the people talking about how nullsec alliances are going to outright ban these things, these recent changes are making us think twice. I personally would have rather seen Concord LP, both from a lore sense in that Concord pays the bounties, and that it is often easier for nullsec players to go to null/lowsec LP stores to cash out.

Either way, these changes have moved the ESS from Kill on Sight to a definite maybe.
FaulEnza N00bist
Dosis Facit Venenum
#1908 - 2014-01-22 00:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: FaulEnza N00bist
Let me try to get the picture right:

- Nullsec... no police, no CONCORD... player ruled land/space (like the early Wild West)
- Interbus has left the scene, we build (well, until now still with f****** BPC from CONCORD LP-Store - where is the BPO?) and run our own POCOs
- we fight pirates of our own wallet/safety/prosperity, not for a goddamn CONCORD-proofed NPC agent
- we are loyal to our corp/ally/coalition at first, not to any Empire

So why should i give a **** to any highsec navy to gain their LPs? They are not present in Null.
-> Pirate Faction Points can be gain by killing local rats (another topic)
What rights does the Navy have to dictate and force me to launch that piece of crap (aka ESS - the mechanics are still ****)?
-> Should i shoot me in the left or right foot?
The market belongs to the players, particularly in nullsec... why then is this item build and seeded by NPC?

Nullsec has to be idependent from any CONCORD rules, it's player space.
Kick SOV bills and burn the asses of CONCORD. They can stay and rot in 0.1 and above.

AND HELL YES, F*** THIS ****** ESS (and most of the other new deployables)

---

Yes, i am pissed off about that and CCPs current work.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#1909 - 2014-01-22 00:18:06 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.

Better. Please consider tweaking the LP value to make it more rewarding to put one down for ratting purposes. Or removing isk from the equation completely and making it all about LP. Planting one of these down should be a thing that a ratter wants to do to increase their isk/hour because it's a smart idea, not necessarily because a solo roamer wants a piece of the pie.

Consider adding LP stores to NPC/player stations, because you shouldn't have to travel to low/high to cash in.

CCP SoniClover wrote:

* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.


Better, but I still don't think 3 minutes is really enough time to respond. Some systems in nullsec are pretty far away from staging systems. I think that increasing this amount would generate more fights.

CCP SoniClover wrote:

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k


What I don't like about the current revision is that it has no reinforcement timer. If it can take a long time to get that extra 5%, someone shouldn't be able to erase that bonus while you and your corp members sleep, and 24/7 coverage should never be an expectation.

Not to mention that the EHP increase does not really change much, instead of taking approximately 5 minutes for a single bomber to take one out, it takes approximately 8 minutes. I would suggest around the 1 million ehp mark, high enough that one solo person isn't going to want to go around killing these but low enough that a small gang could easily take one out within a short amount of time while at the same time allowing the defender to form up (5 to 10 minutes), and have a lasting impact on the defenders (the grind to 5%) if they don't defend.

Overall the changes make the module better, but I believe there is still iteration to be done.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1910 - 2014-01-22 00:20:39 UTC
FaulEnza N00bist wrote:
Let me try to get the picture right:

- Nullsec... no police, no CONCORD... player ruled land/space (like the early Wild West)
- Interbus has left the scene, we build (well, until now still with f****** BPC from CONCORD LP-Store - where is the BPO?) and run our own POCOs
- we fight pirates of our own wallet/safety/prosperity, not for a goddamn CONCORD-proofed NPC agent
- we are loyal to our corp/ally/coalition at first, not to any Empire

So why should i give a **** to any highsec navy to gain their LPs? They are not present in Null.
-> Pirate Faction Points can be gain by killing local rats (another topic)
What rights does the Navy have to dictate and force me to launch that piece of crap (aka ESS - the mechanics are still ****)?
-> Should i shoot me in the left or right foot?
The market belongs to the players, particularly in nullsec... why then is this item build and seeded by NPC?

Nullsec has to be idependent from any CONCORD rules, it's player space.
Kick SOV bills and burn the asses of CONCORD. They can stay and rot in 0.1 and above.

AND HELL YES, F*** THIS ****** ESS (and most of the other new deployables)

---

Yes, i am pissed off about that and CCPs current work.



So..... Who pays the bounties to you?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Avalon5
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1911 - 2014-01-22 00:30:23 UTC
I couldn't even imagine that update can be so bad.

The ESS in nonsense. If you want to cut bounties - do it directly, why you trying to walk 4 times around a soccer field before you get the point.
Xaerael Endiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1912 - 2014-01-22 00:47:25 UTC
Avalon5 wrote:
I couldn't even imagine that update can be so bad.

The ESS in nonsense. If you want to cut bounties - do it directly, why you trying to walk 4 times around a soccer field before you get the point.


Because wrecking the value of nullsec will just make nullsec worthless to line members and see them all go and do something else like FW (already more valuable) Incursions (already more valuable) or missions (would be more valuable if they nerfed the bounties any more).
Nytemaster
The Perfect Storm
#1913 - 2014-01-22 00:57:15 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Kotori wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
Please explain who would drop on and destroy a structure like that. 500k EHP is far more than a roaming gang would be able to burn through. That would be a flat buff to null income. Might as well just boost ratting income and save the extra step. I do agree that the benefit from deploying one of these is a bit underwhelming. So, I'm not sure how widely used they will be.


500k EHP really isnt a lot, and i would say is a valid Target.

If you assume that as a baseline, your roaming gang has an average dps of 250 per ship

500,000 / 250 = 2000 Seconds of shooting for 1 ship.

2000 / 20 ships = 100 seconds of shooting for the gang (1min 40 seconds)

2000 / 10 ships = 200 seconds of shooting (3 mins 20 seconds).

To me, that is still not enough HP! If it can be killed in less than 5 minutes, it cannot be defended!

Three and a half minutes... in a bubble... in hostile space... not shooting a spaceship. For, what? A couple million isk, spread over 10 people? I repeat, no roaming gang would do that. Ratters wouldn't grind a structure with a quarter of that EHP for that kind of income, you can best bet a roaming gang (looking for a person to kill) wouldn't take the time to do it.


With all due respect, isk generated with the prospect of a fight is like gravy on mash potatoes.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#1914 - 2014-01-22 00:57:16 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I have a related question. The ratting that it happening: Is this assumed to be a solo activity? I'm just curious if null ratting is done in cooperation with someone or if it's all solo?

If it's solo, maybe this is part of the intended effect? Maybe CCP wants to see more small groups working together? The other thing is the whole PvE vs PvP fitting on ships. Is this purely an 'efficiency' thing? As is, a PvE fit lets you kill the rat's faster, resulting in a more efficient income?

It would be nice if we could fit our ships for PvP and do PvE activity. Then again, if you are fighting in a group, a PvP ship shouldn't hinder you much against rats?
Nullsec PvE is almost always solo. There are viable ways to dualbox or 2 together, but mostly solo.
The issue is that for most things, you don't have to be 2 characters and 2 characters won't do stuff twice as fast, so if you're dualboxing you can probably literally make twice as much by being in two sites, compared to maybe decreasing completion time with a fourth or a third by being two characters in one site. Multiboxing can add safety or ease, and sentry-droneboats with a specific trigger can sometimes become twice as efficient with twice the characters, but in general terms, nullsec PvE is solo.
The larger issue than the sites themselves would be the systems, though.

Since most systems have a few of the better sites spawning at the same time, a good truesec system can be full at 2 ratters (Or two groups of ratters). There won't be efficient sites to do, so moving over to the next site will be better than staying and competing for the sites as they respawn. Same goes for belts, as it were. With 10 belts you can't warp in, shoot rats, warp to next, warp to next, shoot rats, etc., and expect the rats to really respawn. If you are two people doing the same belts, chances are you could be legitimately isk-doubling in Jita and earn the same hourly wage.
So the issue is essentially that the system pop cap is between 0 and 5.

That's for any reasonable living in a nullsec system. When nullsec players moan about the isk/hour of highsec lvl4 missions, it's not necessarily because the isk/hour itself is out of balance, but because the scalability of lvl4 missions is a practical infinite (Okay, 100-200 people doing it out of the same system means lag and attracts gankers - still!) while the nullsec systems scale in a way so finite you never really need a whole hand for counting on your fingers.
There are other things with highsec missions 'n stuff, but scalability isn't in nullsec.
We can have a battle of four thousand players in a system where, if it was for ratting-sustained living under ideal circumstances, less than a thousandth of the battle-participants would be able to live.

Okay, PI, mining, moonmining, escalation, ice ... it's not all equally bad, but for the line nullsec member, for the 99% of those four thousand, the combination of effort, security, accessability, income per time interval and scalability puts actually living in the areas of nullsec for which they fought and won at a disadvantage to high sec missions.
There are good and bad reasons to ignore that disadvantage, make no mistake.
But mostly, such reasons are either sentimental or "I don't want a new account for HS missions". The reasons most likely won't be "with time devoted to war, defense and offense, logistics, planning and moving around according to population and gangs/campers, this new system will make me obscenely rich through ratting" - but it is very likely to be "damn, I can't be arsed to JC to HS in a wardec to get ISK for a new boat, so I'm gonna rat a little."
With all the sticks in nullsec, to make it generally appealing, it should also have some carrots. Those carrots should be beyond comparison to the places where you get none of the sticks, and different to the places you get other kinds of sticks.
There should be clear consequences to live in nullsec, both SOV. and NPC, in lowsec, in wormholes.
And there should be clear perspectives to make the transition for both gameplay and social play, not just the social aspects.

The ESS, even if the new version is less horrible, is not such a carrot. It's a stick that hurts just as much as the promised carrot soothes. It's a problem and at the same time its own solution.
Nytemaster
The Perfect Storm
#1915 - 2014-01-22 01:36:49 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Has anybody pointed out that if ratting bounties were too high (from CCP's perception -- and they have all the numbers) that it would have been simpler to just straight nerf ratting bounties?

Instead it's like they packaged it with an anchorable design straight out of the Worst Ideas Ever thread.

I think most EVE players would just prefer the truth straight up.

"We are nerfing ratting bounties and here is why." (explanation follows)


Why reduce bounties by 5% when you can decrease the spawn chance by the same amount and do virtually the same thing without hardly anyone noticing? To do the later you can chock all speculation and cries of nerfing to the theory-crafters who may or may not even be able to prove there was any change.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#1916 - 2014-01-22 02:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ZynnLee Akkori
If we lived in fantasy-land, the easiest way to show CCP that Null isn't really working is for everyone to abandon it. Move to a .5 system as close to Null as you can and simply head out there to get the moongoo or whatever you need as a corp every day. Or don't even do that.

Heck, since it's fantasy-land, what if CFC and Goon were to declare Null off-limits for all economic activity and finance 23/7 powerful roaming gangs that punish anyone using Null for anything. They don't make any T2 stuff (prolly have lots of stockpiles they can use exclusively for their Alliance members), don't mine any of the ore out there (and hunt down and destroy any groups who do try to mine), no more PI, etc...

It would kill the market, and CCP would have no choice but to pay attention. A boycott of Null. If it's so irritating, then vote with your afterburner and leave it. It's fantasy because we all know the Alliance leaders are quite happy with their 10 or 12 digit bank accounts and lavish lifestyles and would never shoot the hand that feeds them. They would never sacrifice their cushy offices and ships in an effort to demonstrate to CCP just how serious the issues in Null are.

Sad too, since I, a carebear, would love to see Null as an active, vibrant place. I'd actually go out and actually peeveepee from time to time. I'd run ore, modules, whatever to and from highsec. There's stuff out there I'd like to see.

I think the ESS has potential, but it should be shelved until SOV is fixed, POS coding, and the one huge blue doughnut broken up into a hundred small ones.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1917 - 2014-01-22 02:32:31 UTC
Well, I put my money where my mouth is, and I've moved six characters into a wormhole. If I'm going to get shot at I might as well get paid for it instead of being pushed further into space poverty by the oppressive reactionaries working for CCP.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.

Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1918 - 2014-01-22 03:29:00 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Well, I put my money where my mouth is, and I've moved six characters into a wormhole. If I'm going to get shot at I might as well get paid for it instead of being pushed further into space poverty by the oppressive reactionaries working for CCP.


Wormhole income nerf is probably coming soon
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1919 - 2014-01-22 03:52:52 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
Well, I put my money where my mouth is, and I've moved six characters into a wormhole. If I'm going to get shot at I might as well get paid for it instead of being pushed further into space poverty by the oppressive reactionaries working for CCP.


Wormhole income nerf is probably coming soon


my guess is no more npc buy orders for blue drops

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1920 - 2014-01-22 05:19:32 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
Well, I put my money where my mouth is, and I've moved six characters into a wormhole. If I'm going to get shot at I might as well get paid for it instead of being pushed further into space poverty by the oppressive reactionaries working for CCP.


Wormhole income nerf is probably coming soon


my guess is no more npc buy orders for blue drops

Rubicon 1.2:
- Sleepers no longer drop databases
- New deployable. Has a chance to download databases from defeated sleepers in system. Has no effect if the wormhole does not have an active connection to K-space. Wormholes involved cannot be end of life or shrunk due to mass. They must have relay deployables anchored in every system along the path, including the first k-space system. The relays show globally on the overview, immediately alerting travelers that someone down the chain is ratting. Exciting Pvpve encounters are sure to follow.