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ESS Discussion Thread

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#701 - 2014-01-20 20:24:51 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:

If you put it into the game, people are going to riot and then leave.

Oh please....How MANY times have we heard this?

But just in case, please send me all your stuff...


And send me the rest!
Fix Sov
#702 - 2014-01-20 20:29:50 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
1.) It makes all areas of nullsec worthless unless you own sov AND have one of these installed. That screws over NPC space, ninja plexing, ninja ratting, etc. So how about NO.

Who says it has to impact NPC space? And please, tell me all about these awesome ninja plexers and ratters.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) Shooting an IHUB for an hour

Let's pull more numbers out of our collective arse, shall we?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
a fairly well designed mechanic

The ESS is anything but.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#703 - 2014-01-20 20:56:03 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
1.) It makes all areas of nullsec worthless unless you own sov AND have one of these installed. That screws over NPC space, ninja plexing, ninja ratting, etc. So how about NO.

Who says it has to impact NPC space? And please, tell me all about these awesome ninja plexers and ratters.

I run plexes moderately often. And escalations regularly drive you into sov space. Trust me, there are a fair number of "ninja plexers" and ratters.


Fix Sov wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) Shooting an IHUB for an hour

Let's pull more numbers out of our collective arse, shall we?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
a fairly well designed mechanic

The ESS is anything but.


1.) Misread your post, you meant it turns the system into a 25% payout for an hour, not that you had to shoot the IHUB upgrade for an hour.

2.) I've explained the design principles are are pretty sound in terms of the ESS:
a.) It is small gang oriented.
b.) It is optional to use.
c.) It requires you to risk something to gain even more.
d.) It has the potential for conflict, as you receive notification of it being accessed and (with tweaks) have the opportunity to defend it.

Fix Sov
#704 - 2014-01-20 20:58:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) I've explained the design principles are are pretty sound in terms of the ESS:
a.) It is small gang oriented.
b.) It is optional to use.
c.) It requires you to risk something to gain even more.
d.) It has the potential for conflict, as you receive notification of it being accessed and (with tweaks) have the opportunity to defend it.

e.) The majority of people won't be using it (or will be forbidding its use), invalidating all of the above.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#705 - 2014-01-20 21:03:38 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
2.) I've explained the design principles are are pretty sound in terms of the ESS:
a.) It is small gang oriented.
b.) It is optional to use.
c.) It requires you to risk something to gain even more.
d.) It has the potential for conflict, as you receive notification of it being accessed and (with tweaks) have the opportunity to defend it.

e.) The majority of people won't be using it (or will be forbidding its use), invalidating all of the above.


Nothing about A-D is negated or invalidated from "the majority of people won't use it".

If it is used at All, the potential for conflict over the ESS exists, and I guarantee you it WILL be used, even if less than 5% of nullsec ratters utilize it.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#706 - 2014-01-20 21:35:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Just want to chime in also. The ESS structure is a load of rubbish, sorry CCP. The risk/reward ratio is way off meaning no one is going to use it, that needs to be changed for a start. Perhaps if that is tweaked then it could be better but I still don't like the concept of it fundamentally.


Why don't you like the ESS concept:

1.) It has the potential to boost your ratting income: Immediately, you gain a potential 5% boost to ratting income, and that level increases to 10% over time. It is low maintenance, as a ratter don't have to take tags to empire to enjoy the rewards, it takes 60 seconds to deploy, and it takes 60 seconds to cash out and scoop when you're done ratting.

2.) It follows the risk vs reward paradigm: To get the increased ratting income, you must risk 15% of your income off the bat. This can be raided by anyone if you fail to defend it.

3.) It is a small gang objective, meaning it is a device small groups can spar over.

Now, I believe it has some areas for improvement:
a.) I would prefer a better risk: reward ratio. Perhaps a 5% risk of ratting income for a 10 or 15% reward.

b.) I would prefer it have a longer access time. Frankly, in order for it to be an objective to spar over, the locals need time to form up a response gang to the hostiles accessing it.

c.) It was a terrible mistake to give interceptors bubble immunity, and that should be revoked, or the bubble immunity mechanic needs to be modified (so nullified ships are pulled into bubbles, but can still warp out of them).


1) Immediately, you lose 5% because of the blanket nerf. Then, you get the opportunity to potentially get back to what is current profit if you make use of this structure. Then, on a full moon in june you stand to make a slightly higher profit.

You failed to account for the time spent warping to and from the location of the ESS as well. As was shown earlier in the thread, a solo ratter in an uninterrupted 2 hour session stands to profit a grand total of 1 million isk for the trouble.

2) It does not follow the risk vs reward paradigm.

To get 1 million isk per 2 hour uninterrupted session, you must:
- Risk the % income stored in the structure, including all bonus income
- Risk the 30 mil cost of the structure itself and the associated time to purchase replacement and delivery of that to home system.
- Risk throwing away the time you spent deploying it, which could have been spent ratting without one
- Risk the value of the ship you try to cash out and scoop with, as well as your implants and clone upgrade (because bubble)

To start with, it takes 60 hours of uninterrupted 2h ratting sessions just to pay the up front isk cost of the structure, not counting anything else. 30 mil structure, 35 mil ceptor, 40 mil implants,10 mil clone. That's 230 hours of ratting to break even in a basic worst case scenario (if you managed to successfully cash out before dying).

If you rat 10 hours a week and get caught once every six months, you break even. If you count the time mentioned and losing 50+ mil failing to cash out, the break even point starts approaching a year. Note that six months at 10h a week represents a total of about 14 billion isk in income to start with. That's how insignificant a margin this provides.

More importantly, if you get interrupted during the 2h session or commit less than that at a time, it's not worth using in the first place.

In what world is that reward worth the risk? It's not worth the effort, let alone the risk.

3) Small gangs that want to fight, will fight regardless. If the defenders can't form up a counter force to what scouts report, there will be no fight. If the attackers are a cloaky/ceptor ratter gank squad not interested in a fight, there won't be a fight either. This structure changes none of that. It just lowers the income of the poorest grunts of null sec and fuels blue on blue drama.

a) still not worth deploying
b) Forming a response requires reshipping. Unless you live out of a POS, this requires docking in station. Enter Sabre on the undock, arriving before you load station and change ships. Good luck getting to the ESS grid to fight over the cash out.
c) The bubble is more of a problem in that it guarantees you losing the pod when you die cashing out. It increases the cost involved and all but requires an interceptor for the attempt. Which means the incoming gang will likely be prepared to blap one. Which promotes static dickery instead of interesting fights.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#707 - 2014-01-20 22:09:18 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why don't you like the ESS concept:

1.) It has the potential to boost your ratting income: Immediately, you gain a potential 5% boost to ratting income, and that level increases to 10% over time. It is low maintenance, as a ratter don't have to take tags to empire to enjoy the rewards, it takes 60 seconds to deploy, and it takes 60 seconds to cash out and scoop when you're done ratting.

2.) It follows the risk vs reward paradigm: To get the increased ratting income, you must risk 15% of your income off the bat. This can be raided by anyone if you fail to defend it.

3.) It is a small gang objective, meaning it is a device small groups can spar over.

Now, I believe it has some areas for improvement:
a.) I would prefer a better risk: reward ratio. Perhaps a 5% risk of ratting income for a 10 or 15% reward.

b.) I would prefer it have a longer access time. Frankly, in order for it to be an objective to spar over, the locals need time to form up a response gang to the hostiles accessing it.

c.) It was a terrible mistake to give interceptors bubble immunity, and that should be revoked, or the bubble immunity mechanic needs to be modified (so nullified ships are pulled into bubbles, but can still warp out of them).


1) Immediately, you lose 5% because of the blanket nerf. Then, you get the opportunity to potentially get back to what is current profit if you make use of this structure. Then, on a full moon in june you stand to make a slightly higher profit.

You failed to account for the time spent warping to and from the location of the ESS as well. As was shown earlier in the thread, a solo ratter in an uninterrupted 2 hour session stands to profit a grand total of 1 million isk for the trouble.

2) It does not follow the risk vs reward paradigm.

To get 1 million isk per 2 hour uninterrupted session, you must:
- Risk the % income stored in the structure, including all bonus income
- Risk the 30 mil cost of the structure itself and the associated time to purchase replacement and delivery of that to home system.
- Risk throwing away the time you spent deploying it, which could have been spent ratting without one
- Risk the value of the ship you try to cash out and scoop with, as well as your implants and clone upgrade (because bubble)

To start with, it takes 60 hours of uninterrupted 2h ratting sessions just to pay the up front isk cost of the structure, not counting anything else. 30 mil structure, 35 mil ceptor, 40 mil implants,10 mil clone. That's 230 hours of ratting to break even in a basic worst case scenario (if you managed to successfully cash out before dying).

If you rat 10 hours a week and get caught once every six months, you break even. If you count the time mentioned and losing 50+ mil failing to cash out, the break even point starts approaching a year. Note that six months at 10h a week represents a total of about 14 billion isk in income to start with. That's how insignificant a margin this provides.

More importantly, if you get interrupted during the 2h session or commit less than that at a time, it's not worth using in the first place.

In what world is that reward worth the risk? It's not worth the effort, let alone the risk.

3) Small gangs that want to fight, will fight regardless. If the defenders can't form up a counter force to what scouts report, there will be no fight. If the attackers are a cloaky/ceptor ratter gank squad not interested in a fight, there won't be a fight either. This structure changes none of that. It just lowers the income of the poorest grunts of null sec and fuels blue on blue drama.

a) still not worth deploying
b) Forming a response requires reshipping. Unless you live out of a POS, this requires docking in station. Enter Sabre on the undock, arriving before you load station and change ships. Good luck getting to the ESS grid to fight over the cash out.
c) The bubble is more of a problem in that it guarantees you losing the pod when you die cashing out. It increases the cost involved and all but requires an interceptor for the attempt. Which means the incoming gang will likely be prepared to blap one. Which promotes static dickery instead of interesting fights.


1.) I consider the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting an independent issue to the ESS. They could change that to a 0% nerf, a 10% nerf, etc... and it doesn't change the mechanics nor the "risk:reward" ratio of the ESS. I understand why people are upset over the nullsec income nerf, but it really can be viewed independent of the ESS. Furthermore, the profitability of the ESS IS independent of the income nerf. You don't lose 5% from deploying the ESS, you GAIN 5% from deploying the ESS (and successfully claiming the bounties). Furthermore, you can deploy the ESS anywhere in system (moreless), meaning it should take you 2 minutes to deploy, and 1 minute to reclaim the bounties and scoop the loot. That time is negligible if you are ratting for any length of time.

2.) Even if it is a you risk 10b isk to get 1m isk a day extra income, that's following a risk vs reward paradigm. If you don't want to risk it, then don't use it!

3.) This is about the locals being incentivized to fight. Currently the locals have nothing to worry about defending in their system when a small gang comes through. This is small gang oriented, because a small gang can claim it.

a.) Then don't deploy it.

b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

c.) So ask to have the bubble removed. However, to be honest, you can simply hit "cash out" and then scoop the thing to your cargo hold, and bam.. .no more bubble, no more beacon for ships to warp to you at, and you can then cloak and/or warp away!
Fix Sov
#708 - 2014-01-20 22:20:45 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
1.) I consider the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting an independent issue to the ESS.

Except it isn't, it's part and parcel of the ESS until CCP says otherwise.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3.) This is about the locals being incentivized to fight. Currently the locals have nothing to worry about defending in their system when a small gang comes through. This is small gang oriented, because a small gang can claim it.

And with the ESS in the game, they'll still have nothing to worry about, since they won't deploy it.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping.

Why bother, when you can just not deploy the ESS and just not care?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
c.) So ask to have the bubble removed. However, to be honest, you can simply hit "cash out" and then scoop the thing to your cargo hold, and bam.. .no more bubble, no more beacon for ships to warp to you at, and you can then cloak and/or warp away!

Or just not deploy it in the first place, because it's not worth it.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#709 - 2014-01-21 03:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyn Pharoh
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

1.) I consider the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting an independent issue to the ESS. They could change that to a 0% nerf, a 10% nerf, etc... and it doesn't change the mechanics nor the "risk:reward" ratio of the ESS. I understand why people are upset over the nullsec income nerf, but it really can be viewed independent of the ESS. Furthermore, the profitability of the ESS IS independent of the income nerf. You don't lose 5% from deploying the ESS, you GAIN 5% from deploying the ESS (and successfully claiming the bounties). Furthermore, you can deploy the ESS anywhere in system (moreless), meaning it should take you 2 minutes to deploy, and 1 minute to reclaim the bounties and scoop the loot. That time is negligible if you are ratting for any length of time.

2.) Even if it is a you risk 10b isk to get 1m isk a day extra income, that's following a risk vs reward paradigm. If you don't want to risk it, then don't use it!

3.) This is about the locals being incentivized to fight. Currently the locals have nothing to worry about defending in their system when a small gang comes through. This is small gang oriented, because a small gang can claim it.

a.) Then don't deploy it.

b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

c.) So ask to have the bubble removed. However, to be honest, you can simply hit "cash out" and then scoop the thing to your cargo hold, and bam.. .no more bubble, no more beacon for ships to warp to you at, and you can then cloak and/or warp away!


I suspect at this point, Giz you are just baiting and trolling. You've said much of the same here as you have already posted in the 85+ pages of replies to the Dev post itself. Now you are here in Gen Discussion, trying to get forum fights using the meat of posts that have been already trashed elsewhere.

1) You can consider that the earth is flat too, but you would be just as wrong in that as you repeat yourself being wrong on this. The 5% nerf is tied into the rollout of this 'upgrade' and its supported by the lore supporting the roll out of this 'upgrade'. I have been happy to correct my own flawed logic, it would be refreshing for you to see when yours has at least reached a dead end.

2) It fails to follow a GOOD risk vs reward logic, and it has far more potential to shift more reward away from the risk of Nullsec life. As if the game wasn't already terribly imbalanced in that direction already. As if we haven't already gone circles elsewhere on this point.

3) I can't believe you are STILL flogging this nonsense. The ONLY way an ESS concept will be an incentive to fight is if the use of one of these things is incentive enough for Rank and File membership to rat in PVP fit ships.

a) Why even bring this feature live while it is terribly flawed and doesn't have the potential to do anything along what its potential suggests? How about we get real content out of the Dev euros already invested by making CCP hold onto this precious snowflake long enough for it to be GREAT content, not its broken/its useless nonsense?

b) Make it good enough not to need to reship :) As it is, most folks (shudder) actually believe that giving gangs fights keeps them coming back. I abhor this philosophy personally, but there a LOT of folks that swear by this. I am HAPPY to meet the wishes of the small gang community at a crossroads that gets more conflict drivers into New Eden, but we ALL KNOW that the ESS as it is will be rubbish for getting fights. Releasing it as is will just prejudice anyone forced to swallow this thing wholesale in the event that CCP does, later (probably too much later) fix it in any way that makes any sense at all. You should be BEGGING them not to release this thing as is. I have no sympathy for folks that get caught in station bubbles either by the way.

c) Ask the bubble be removed? How many features does it take that you acknowledge yourself to be broken/not right/not necessary before something shouldn't be brought to market??? Serious talk here.

I can't believe that you don't see how much of a step in the wrong direction the ESS is in its current Incarna. Its going to dry up farms and fields long before you get any chance to pillage them, sucking away Dev resources all along the way. You should be demanding more from CCP. Honestly, wolves prosper from fatter sheep, how can you not see that? Why you would accept anything less simply boggles the mind.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#710 - 2014-01-21 05:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

1.) I consider the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting an independent issue to the ESS. They could change that to a 0% nerf, a 10% nerf, etc... and it doesn't change the mechanics nor the "risk:reward" ratio of the ESS. I understand why people are upset over the nullsec income nerf, but it really can be viewed independent of the ESS. Furthermore, the profitability of the ESS IS independent of the income nerf. You don't lose 5% from deploying the ESS, you GAIN 5% from deploying the ESS (and successfully claiming the bounties). Furthermore, you can deploy the ESS anywhere in system (moreless), meaning it should take you 2 minutes to deploy, and 1 minute to reclaim the bounties and scoop the loot. That time is negligible if you are ratting for any length of time.

2.) Even if it is a you risk 10b isk to get 1m isk a day extra income, that's following a risk vs reward paradigm. If you don't want to risk it, then don't use it!

3.) This is about the locals being incentivized to fight. Currently the locals have nothing to worry about defending in their system when a small gang comes through. This is small gang oriented, because a small gang can claim it.

a.) Then don't deploy it.

b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

c.) So ask to have the bubble removed. However, to be honest, you can simply hit "cash out" and then scoop the thing to your cargo hold, and bam.. .no more bubble, no more beacon for ships to warp to you at, and you can then cloak and/or warp away!

1) Faucets and sinks are currently in a healthy state. Successful prolonged use of this module increases faucets by 5%. Clearly the 5% nerf to the base and rudimentary use being the same as before is an attempt to a) maintain that balance in the faucets and b) force people to actually use it. All the while forgetting the module itself is a sink. It's bought for ISK from NPC sell orders and expected to die left right and center to small gangs.

Taking your 2 minute deploy 1 min scoop, how is that negligible? I log in and start ratting while I figure out what people are up to. Say I rat for 30 minutes, before reshipping to go shoot something. That 3 minutes of deploying and scooping is in and of itself a 10% reduction to my income. I hardly ever rat for more than an hour and change at a time to start with. Inevitably a target shows up, a hostile forces me to dock, or I log off to spend my gaming time on something that is actually fun.

2) That's the point.
No one will use it. So it's just a waste of dev resources and an unnecessary nerf to the null minimum wage.

3) Currently, the locals are happy that a fight came to them. If they have enough dudes to take the fight. They don't need more incentive. They need dudes to be in their home space, not hiding on high sec alts and printing ISK. Or are you going to tell me you expect three guys to undock and take on a 10+ man HAC gang rolling through? Because the ESS is not going to make that happen.

c) you can simply warp to it and get blapped before getting in cash out range
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

Wyn Pharoh wrote:
I have no sympathy for folks that get caught in station bubbles either by the way.


Hostiles enter local. You dock up with your buddies and reship to pvp ships.

You undock to find a dic bubble up on the UNdock. Meanwhile, the rest of this hostile gang is shooting the ESS, payout be damned. It's going to pop in 40 seconds. Everyone loaded station grid yet? 35. Better tell me how to trivially easily avoid this bubble we are in, so we can go save the ESS. 30. Wonder if he will decloak and bubble again. 25. Burned out of the bubble yet? 20. How long is the warp again? 15. Wonder if they'll stay and fight us. 10. Or kill it and run away before we load grid. 5...
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#711 - 2014-01-21 06:06:36 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

Wyn Pharoh wrote:
I have no sympathy for folks that get caught in station bubbles either by the way.


Hostiles enter local. You dock up with your buddies and reship to pvp ships.

You undock to find a dic bubble up on the UNdock. Meanwhile, the rest of this hostile gang is shooting the ESS, payout be damned. It's going to pop in 40 seconds. Everyone loaded station grid yet? 35. Better tell me how to trivially easily avoid this bubble we are in, so we can go save the ESS. 30. Wonder if he will decloak and bubble again. 25. Burned out of the bubble yet? 20. How long is the warp again? 15. Wonder if they'll stay and fight us. 10. Or kill it and run away before we load grid. 5...


Just for starters, keeping PVP ships in POS's will keep everyone from getting undock dic'd. In before Giz unleashes an Agony newbro course on how to avoid sabres bubbling your station. Vald, we know how things work now, and without a significant rewrite the ESS is swiss cheese. Nullbear activists have to accept there are changes coming, and if we give even a hint of weaksauce arguments that just underline an already too risk adverse climate, we are going to see bad content shoved down our throats.

Verily, it is a pain to reship and form up, so if the ESS is supposed to be the Grail that gets gudfites, then it will have to be good enough to make PVP fits the only fits that are flown in Nullsec. Using intel, coordinating on comms, being in a standing fleet and a bunch of other stuff that sensible people do every day could potentially get rapid response fleets that are, well actually rapid. That would be at least my ideal starting point for staring at across the board nerfs to income and not wondering why CCP didn't at least give me a kiss first.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#712 - 2014-01-21 06:54:01 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:

Just for starters, keeping PVP ships in POS's...


You know, people have been asking for a fix to POS mechanics and issues with roles for, how long now?


There is a reason people keep talking about going to an outpost to reship, because it is the only place in the game where individual members can keep an unlimited number of personal PvP ships without needing roles or risking spies stealing their stuff.

The worst that can happen is getting locked out of the station, but at least the stuff is still theirs, and can be sold if all else fails.


I totally agree with using intel channels and standing fleets to deal with roaming gangs. But when it comes to the ESS, it is such a crappy deployable that no one of note will deploy or defend one in the first place.
Fix Sov
#713 - 2014-01-21 07:55:43 UTC
Oh, yeah, keeping ships floating around in POSes is a recipe for losing much more isk than just not giving a **** about defending the ESS (or even not giving a **** about deploying it in the first place, because it's ****) could ever hope to cost you.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#714 - 2014-01-21 08:38:23 UTC
Grrr POS's. Lol, I failed to consider the issues that megacorps have to consider. I don't either recommend leaving large fleets in a single POS. It's pretty handy to keep one or two around when one is out of a station system ratting, so I rarely have the problem of getting myself dic'd on an undock. The point I wanted to make wasn't really to rebut that its ever easy to reship. Dictors can be just one of many problems. I think that this ESS thing is gaining wreckingball momentum, and if we don't give CCP some solid goals to consider, it will just be a nerf without benefits.

My suggestions so far, finish rebalancing the 100% bounty rats in Drones. Make the MTU there useful while 'buying' faucet room to make the ESS just better. Up its rewards via isk and LP and make it so good that ratting in PVE ships becomes what alliances are banning, not CCP 'upgrades'.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#715 - 2014-01-21 09:20:31 UTC
ESS = EVE Strangling Structure
It's a stupid waste of coding time and an even more stupid concept.

I already know some regions where it's use will be banned.

Total waste of effort.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#716 - 2014-01-21 09:55:56 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:

My suggestions so far, finish rebalancing the 100% bounty rats in Drones. Make the MTU there useful while 'buying' faucet room to make the ESS just better. Up its rewards via isk and LP and make it so good that ratting in PVE ships becomes what alliances are banning, not CCP 'upgrades'.


If they go ahead with the 5% bounty nerf, then have the ESS just give Concord LP without withholding bounties, it would be worth deploying and defending and it wouldn't feed the isk inflation fear.


Rebalancing rats to be doable with something more PvP fit is a whole other problem. But the only reason people are making an issue of it in this case is that you have 40 seconds to reship before the hostiles steal your bounties. Get rid of the dumb bounty stealing mechanic. Make it so the longer the ESS stays up, the more LP/rat you get, and that will be enough to motivate people to defend it. People who don't defend it lose the isk value of the ESS and go back to making just the nerfed bounties.
Fix Sov
#717 - 2014-01-21 10:12:45 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
Grrr POS's. Lol, I failed to consider the issues that megacorps have to consider. I don't either recommend leaving large fleets in a single POS. It's pretty handy to keep one or two around when one is out of a station system ratting, so I rarely have the problem of getting myself dic'd on an undock.

The problem with leaving ships in a POS is that unless you own that POS yourself, you can essentially consider those ships lost. If they haven't been lost, then you've really just been lucky.

Wyn Pharoh wrote:
The point I wanted to make wasn't really to rebut that its ever easy to reship. Dictors can be just one of many problems.

We also have to factor in the :effort: factor, the coward factor, etc. Far from everyone can be bothered to risk their ship and a large portion probably doesn't actually dare risk their ships etc, because they're just in null because they've somehow been convinced that it's more profitable out there, or they just want to play with friends who happen to be in null. At least they've gotten out of hisec.

Wyn Pharoh wrote:
I think that this ESS thing is gaining wreckingball momentum, and if we don't give CCP some solid goals to consider, it will just be a nerf without benefits.

It'll be a nerf without benefits, because it doesn't matter how many solid goals we give them, it seems they'll just ignore them anyways.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#718 - 2014-01-21 11:15:49 UTC
Galactic Republic. The taxation
of trade routes to outlying star
systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter
with a blockade of deadly
battleships, the greedy Trade
Federation has stopped all
shipping to the small planet
of Naboo.

While the congress of the
Republic endlessly debates...
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#719 - 2014-01-21 12:17:02 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

1.) I consider the 5% nerf to nullsec ratting an independent issue to the ESS. They could change that to a 0% nerf, a 10% nerf, etc... and it doesn't change the mechanics nor the "risk:reward" ratio of the ESS. I understand why people are upset over the nullsec income nerf, but it really can be viewed independent of the ESS. Furthermore, the profitability of the ESS IS independent of the income nerf. You don't lose 5% from deploying the ESS, you GAIN 5% from deploying the ESS (and successfully claiming the bounties). Furthermore, you can deploy the ESS anywhere in system (moreless), meaning it should take you 2 minutes to deploy, and 1 minute to reclaim the bounties and scoop the loot. That time is negligible if you are ratting for any length of time.

2.) Even if it is a you risk 10b isk to get 1m isk a day extra income, that's following a risk vs reward paradigm. If you don't want to risk it, then don't use it!

3.) This is about the locals being incentivized to fight. Currently the locals have nothing to worry about defending in their system when a small gang comes through. This is small gang oriented, because a small gang can claim it.

a.) Then don't deploy it.

b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

c.) So ask to have the bubble removed. However, to be honest, you can simply hit "cash out" and then scoop the thing to your cargo hold, and bam.. .no more bubble, no more beacon for ships to warp to you at, and you can then cloak and/or warp away!

1) Faucets and sinks are currently in a healthy state. Successful prolonged use of this module increases faucets by 5%. Clearly the 5% nerf to the base and rudimentary use being the same as before is an attempt to a) maintain that balance in the faucets and b) force people to actually use it. All the while forgetting the module itself is a sink. It's bought for ISK from NPC sell orders and expected to die left right and center to small gangs.

Taking your 2 minute deploy 1 min scoop, how is that negligible? I log in and start ratting while I figure out what people are up to. Say I rat for 30 minutes, before reshipping to go shoot something. That 3 minutes of deploying and scooping is in and of itself a 10% reduction to my income. I hardly ever rat for more than an hour and change at a time to start with. Inevitably a target shows up, a hostile forces me to dock, or I log off to spend my gaming time on something that is actually fun.

2) That's the point.
No one will use it. So it's just a waste of dev resources and an unnecessary nerf to the null minimum wage.

3) Currently, the locals are happy that a fight came to them. If they have enough dudes to take the fight. They don't need more incentive. They need dudes to be in their home space, not hiding on high sec alts and printing ISK. Or are you going to tell me you expect three guys to undock and take on a 10+ man HAC gang rolling through? Because the ESS is not going to make that happen.

c) you can simply warp to it and get blapped before getting in cash out range
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
b.) Of course forming up involves reshipping. BTW, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to avoid sabres bubbling your station! PM me if you need pointers!

Wyn Pharoh wrote:
I have no sympathy for folks that get caught in station bubbles either by the way.


Hostiles enter local. You dock up with your buddies and reship to pvp ships.

You undock to find a dic bubble up on the UNdock. Meanwhile, the rest of this hostile gang is shooting the ESS, payout be damned. It's going to pop in 40 seconds. Everyone loaded station grid yet? 35. Better tell me how to trivially easily avoid this bubble we are in, so we can go save the ESS. 30. Wonder if he will decloak and bubble again. 25. Burned out of the bubble yet? 20. How long is the warp again? 15. Wonder if they'll stay and fight us. 10. Or kill it and run away before we load grid. 5...

Why not refit in space for PvP? You can do that now you know.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#720 - 2014-01-21 13:26:06 UTC
I'm cross posting here a post from the dev blog discussion thread:

Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
* Volume increased from 150 to 200
* Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
* Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.