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ESS Discussion Thread

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Dave Stark
#661 - 2014-01-19 08:46:02 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
I can't understand why this discussion isn't happening in the Dev blog thread itself, but if we tacked these 30+ pages onto the 80+ pages there, then this has reached threadnaught proportions Twisted


because the dev blog thread is hidden in a subforum people have 0 reason to visit.
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#662 - 2014-01-19 08:57:43 UTC
the ESS looks patheticaly bad, GIVE US SEAMLESS PLANET ATMOSPHERIC ENTRY/FLIGHT, and we can pay concord a million for the privilege, if youre so desperate for isk sinks.

C'mon CCP, something NEW for Eve, as in REALLY NEW Attention

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#663 - 2014-01-19 11:10:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I think its unlikely that you ran 10 sites and only got OE and bounties. However even if you did you made a good between 600 to 1.3 billion discounting bounties.

But yes you could conclude based on your sample that there is a very low chance of getting a high end mod. Remember a conclusion is not proof its simply based on an analysis of your results. A conclusion on a sample size of 10 is as valid as a conclusion on a sample size of 1000 even if the conclusions are different.

In regards to reliable income streams, after spending months in nullsec and obtaining multiple sample sets I can say that though there are occasions where one only gets an OE + bounties, which are still better then mission income, the majority of the time based on my experience one gets high end drops.

The more data one has the more able one is to presume predictability of a random drop based system, to the point it becomes non-random. Its somewhat similiar to how retail outlets can predict consumer trends and thus future income streams even though even though its impossible to predict individual customer behaviour.

Since I have spent so much time out in null, and run so many sites, I can conclude based on my income so far my future income.

As for the module it certainly is an interesting module:

* It can be used for smart bombing intie traps.
* It can be used to set up no ewarp log on traps.
* It can be set up at a POS with a bit of grid fu for manual gunner killing.
* It can be set up in line with a death or **** star and a strategically placed bubble for auto-pos killing clueless nuets.
* It can just be ignored and you lose a tiny fraction of your ratter bounties.
* It can boost your income from ratting by a tiny fraction.
* It can be used to start conflict in hostile systems and cost your enemy 20% or force them to engage you.
* It can be used to siphon bounties from your enemies.

How is that not interesting?


And I think it's very likely it did happen this way, and could drop a reverse statement: after years of living in null, I can easily say drops of OE+non-valuable are more common than expensive loot. With the value of OE yes, the reward was not bad but with OE rewards only I likely could've earned more blitzing anomalies at the time - especially after factoring in the time to travel safely between sites.

As for the points of "interesting" uses - most of them are gimmicks that just wouldn't work. This thing does not go into reinforced mode when hit, so the enemies will just wait out a few hours and hit it when you're gone/off-timezone. Look at the work of cloaked hostiles in ratting systems - they can easily disrupt a system better than an ESS can and ever could.

Of course, yes, they need to be logged in but to be frank someone needs to be overseeing the ESS as well seeing as it will get destroyed in minutes if you walk away.

Rest... pretty much what Baltec1 says holds true, this thing would not really see use since it's not worth the effort and ISK.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Mag's
Azn Empire
#664 - 2014-01-19 14:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You must be in 2500 of the ESS to access it. You must stay there for 40 seconds. I often cloaky Rokh smartbomb in exploration sites. No decloak recal time on smartbomb activation.

Grid-fu the grid out to 500km, drop the ESS at its minimal distance, likely 200-500km. Blap with manual POS guns.

Make up your mind, they will dock up and then you say they will destroy it. If they dock up then you're costing them isk, if they fight then you can kill them. Dropping one with a CFC cloaky alt will literally garantee they'll not undock and shoot it because 'hotdrop'.






Just wondering, do you know what range these things can be put down at from a POS?

As for the rest, we dont need to drop an ESS to get them to dock up the ratting ships, just having a neut in system is enough.
I doubt Infinity does know. That range Infinity mentions (200-500KM) comes from the error it made early on in this thread. Infinity basically said that someone could be dropping this thing 100Km from a POS, which would sort out the access. When I pointed out that 100Km wasn't possible, Infinity posted the dev blog proving me right (but didn't realise). I pointed out the word 'several'. But instead of acknowledging it's error, it then went on to claim that even though the Devs said several 100KM, it still could be placed 250KM away. Roll

I highly doubt you'll be able to sit these things anywhere near enough, for guns to make a difference. But let's face it, Infinity isn't one for facts and actual figures.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Fix Sov
#665 - 2014-01-19 14:06:31 UTC
It doesn't really matter if he's right or wrong, as it's still a char and an account someone has to keep online, doing nothing, and he has to pay attention to both his ratting (or multiple clients ratting) and the char keeping an eye on the ESS, which impacts his efficiency more than the ESS does, which means not dropping the ESS makes more sense than dropping it.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#666 - 2014-01-19 14:15:36 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
It doesn't really matter if he's right or wrong, as it's still a char and an account someone has to keep online, doing nothing, and he has to pay attention to both his ratting (or multiple clients ratting) and the char keeping an eye on the ESS, which impacts his efficiency more than the ESS does, which means not dropping the ESS makes more sense than dropping it.
I agree, I just find the errors it makes funny as hell.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#667 - 2014-01-19 14:20:14 UTC
After further review the ESS is good for EvE. It creates more conflict, more player interaction, and more isk opportunities. I would however be happier if it came with some sov mechanic changes. such as you must occupy, lvl up military / industry to maintain sov. and also i'm not happy with the overheating changes.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#668 - 2014-01-19 14:48:02 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
After further review the ESS is good for EvE. It creates more conflict, more player interaction, and more isk opportunities.
Could we see the evidence you used, to arrive at these conclusions?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#669 - 2014-01-19 15:03:33 UTC
The ESS looks like faction warfare turned up.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#670 - 2014-01-19 15:04:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You must be in 2500 of the ESS to access it. You must stay there for 40 seconds. I often cloaky Rokh smartbomb in exploration sites. No decloak recal time on smartbomb activation.

Grid-fu the grid out to 500km, drop the ESS at its minimal distance, likely 200-500km. Blap with manual POS guns.

Make up your mind, they will dock up and then you say they will destroy it. If they dock up then you're costing them isk, if they fight then you can kill them. Dropping one with a CFC cloaky alt will literally garantee they'll not undock and shoot it because 'hotdrop'.






Just wondering, do you know what range these things can be put down at from a POS?

As for the rest, we dont need to drop an ESS to get them to dock up the ratting ships, just having a neut in system is enough.

The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Fix Sov
#671 - 2014-01-19 15:10:19 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.

And I say "A couple of x" when I mean anything from 2 to, say, 10.

It doesn't matter, because you're still talking about dedicating a char/account (remember, an account is $15 or 620-650m per month) to just watching the ESS instead of using him to improve your own isk-making efficiency beyond 105% (which is the best we'll be seeing with the ESS. Add that cost (i.e. around 20m/day) to the potential cost of the ESS (30m), the potential cost to some blue, neut or red stealing from the ESS, and it starts to look like something most people won't deploy.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Tedric
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#672 - 2014-01-19 15:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tedric
5% here, 5% there for bounties? really?

This number is so low as to be ignorable.

If someone puts up an ESS thing in the ratting system i'm in I will ignore it. For most people who generate ISK by shooting stuff they will ignore it. A 5% loss is borderline Negligable. which means (in reality) that no one will care.

The only reasons to put one up is if there is NOT one up allowing you to cash in other other peoples work.

Yes there might be large amounts of iskies building up if it is a busy ratting system but removing it is risky and removing it all is liable to result in ejection from corp/alliance. Short answer: don't bother.

If you are in hostile territory then yes, you emptying the ESS is a good way to thumb your nose at them.

All in all, an interesting idea, but really! Find something more productive to do!

CCP: once again you are adding frivolous features where there are significant items that need resources spent on them.

Let me name the two largest:
1. POS
3. node overload (also known as the single-thread problem.

I do not consider SOV a problem, just bad (but also needs iterating)!

These are huge problems. And these are the ones that are crippling you and have been crippling you for about 3-4 years. In 2012-3 you made a great start trimming away (refactoring) the low hanging problems for item 1 and 2. All that is left is mostly the core problem and i see little to NO forward progress on this in almost a year.

CCP: bite the bullet and start chewing!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#673 - 2014-01-19 15:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Fix Sov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.

And I say "A couple of x" when I mean anything from 2 to, say, 10.

It doesn't matter, because you're still talking about dedicating a char/account (remember, an account is $15 or 620-650m per month) to just watching the ESS instead of using him to improve your own isk-making efficiency beyond 105% (which is the best we'll be seeing with the ESS. Add that cost (i.e. around 20m/day) to the potential cost of the ESS (30m), the potential cost to some blue, neut or red stealing from the ESS, and it starts to look like something most people won't deploy.

Sorry but if you have a POS and you don't have the capabillity to have a POS gunner on hand for siphons or ESS then I guess that's tough **** for you.

I have 10 accounts, I fund them with this character running combat sigs in null. If I can fund 10 solo I'm sure your alliance could fund or corp or local group of ratters could fund one too. Or just drop the bloody thing.

Also several is usually more to short side of 2 than the short side of 10 but hey, they maybe outside the range of even large pos guns... don't drop the ESS then.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#674 - 2014-01-19 15:16:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.



So you have not tested this.
Fix Sov
#675 - 2014-01-19 15:16:30 UTC
Tedric wrote:
3. node overload (also known as the single-thread problem.

I do not consider SOV a problem, just bad (but also needs intterating)!

If the sov system had sucked less, then we would be seeing far less issues with node-breaking numbers. There would still be exceptions to this with things like archon fleets getting caught, dropped, counter-dropped etc, but that would be something you could ignore if you absolutely wanted to. A sov system being blobbed to hell and back by both sides, not so much.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#676 - 2014-01-19 15:16:42 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.

And I say "A couple of x" when I mean anything from 2 to, say, 10.
Not only that, but common sense would tell you that the reason the Devs mention those structures and limit the distance to them, is because they do not want you to have use of them in conjunction with the ESS.

But for once, Infinity may have guessed correctly. Straight

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#677 - 2014-01-19 15:17:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.



So you have not tested this.

Nope.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#678 - 2014-01-19 15:17:17 UTC
The Infinity Ziona solution:

Even more alts dedicated exclusively to dealing with the new mechanics! Even more people FORCED into boring gameplay to counter a mechanic that ought not exist in the first place!

Hooray.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Fix Sov
#679 - 2014-01-19 15:17:31 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sorry but if you have a POS and you don't have the capabillity to have a POS gunner on hand for siphons or ESS then I guess that's tough **** for you.

Notice how I didn't say "I can't do a POS gunner while ratting", but "it's a much less efficient use of that char/account"?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#680 - 2014-01-19 15:18:52 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The dev blog states "several hundred kilometres", the oxford dictionary defines several as "more than two but not many" so its likely less then 500km which would put it in range of manually operated pos guns.

And I say "A couple of x" when I mean anything from 2 to, say, 10.
Not only that, but common sense would tell you that the reason the Devs mention those structures and limit the distance to them, is because they do not want you to have use of them in conjunction with the ESS.

But for once, Infinity may have guessed correctly. Straight

Actually its more than likely they don't want POS automated defences to make them obsolete. Its still to be seen if they mind player gunners defending them. My gut feeling is they will think that is fine, as they do with siphons.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)