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ESS Discussion Thread

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Chirjo Durruti
Doomheim
#621 - 2014-01-18 14:45:16 UTC
This tool is not meant to be used for PvE. It can be used for it, but it's stupid. Why PvP? It is basically a bounty siphon/inhibitor unit for small roaming gangs and a tool for a war of attrition.

HOWTO: No More Tears (solo) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdA4ciUrH-k If you can get me a better crew than THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPrtQ9AdoM0 convo me.
Fix Sov
#622 - 2014-01-18 14:45:34 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
I don't even bother with incursions or L4s, I make much more for much less effort by doing market trading. vOv

then what is all this thread about??? Shocked

Pointing out that the ESS is a **** idea?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#623 - 2014-01-18 14:48:40 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
I don't even bother with incursions or L4s, I make much more for much less effort by doing market trading. vOv

then what is all this thread about??? Shocked

Pointing out that the ESS is a **** idea?
Rabbits can't read.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#624 - 2014-01-18 14:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Fix Sov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Oh, so you're ignoring the fact that what you're proposing implies I'd have to put a guy in a POS or on an ESS, instead of putting that guy in a fleet with the other guys of mine and making it far more efficient to burn through red crosses, thus far exceeding the meager increase the ESS would possibly have (with no risk of any of it being stolen by anyone)?

Okay, then.

Effort in null sec, my heart bleeds for you.

And thus we see the crux of your argument for the ESS: "I just want to make these 'nullbears' cry".

No not at all. I'm a null-bear as well. I have to put in effort. I put cloaky BS in relic sites because fun. Does it hurt my "isk ratio" no idea but it's fun. I have to cloak up as a soloer, obviously hurts my isk ratio, who cares, part of the game.

Since this will affect every ratter to an extent there will be less isk in meaning your buying power will increase anyway. Will you notice it, no, because 5% is tiny anyway. Will idiots not realise this and go to high yes, will that free up your available anoms, yes.

It's a shitstorm over nothing basically.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Fix Sov
#625 - 2014-01-18 14:52:46 UTC
Chirjo Durruti wrote:
This tool is not meant to be used for PvE. It can be used for it, but it's stupid. Why PvP? It is basically a bounty siphon/inhibitor unit for small roaming gangs and a tool for a war of attrition.

What happens when a roaming gang runs around somewhere? Most people dock up or POS up. What happens when they leave? They crawl back out of the woodworks.

What happens if the same roaming gang runs around and drops ESSes everywhere? Most people dock/POS up, wait for the guys to leave, go shoot the ESS then continue ratting. If someone stays behind to press the steal button on the ESS, that guy's basically doing the same thing an AFK cloaker would.

The ESS module in and of itself won't do **** except make people shoot it when the roaming gang leaves.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Fix Sov
#626 - 2014-01-18 14:55:34 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
It's a shitstorm over nothing basically.

Because it's a **** idea which will not do what SoniClover pretends it would do, it won't be used by locals and it'll be woefully inefficient/noneffective when used by roaming gangs, so it's dead, useless code which CCP will now have to keep maintaining for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

Essentially it's a module they'd be better left off without, and we're pointing this out.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#627 - 2014-01-18 14:56:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Infinity, just stop. It's obvious just how wrong you are. Just as it was when you talked about placing an ESS 100KM from a POS. You of course ignored the fact you were wrong then, as you are now. Kinda skipped right over that failure and simply continued to spout misinformation, just as you are now.

Who cares if I was wrong about 100km. I misread the dev blog. Mistakes happen. However the blog states several hundred. This actually makes it easier (tracking issues) rather than harder to blap something attempting to access the ESS.

As you may or may not know POS guns are able to shoot much farther than their auto activation range meaning an alt can lock and shoot anyone attempting to access the ESS before that 40 sec is up, especially non nulli ships using mwd. Some guns can hit out to 500km.

It's a pretty simple procedure to extend the grid, drop the ESS, have your alt in POS and when you get the message blow the intruder to bits.

Additionally for cloakies and inties a simple tanked Rohk with smarties, cloak sitting 2.5 km from the ESS will pop most any ceptor and scram and survive long enough for reshipping to PvP ships.



I dunno, but I see here some new exciting gameplay features added.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#628 - 2014-01-18 14:58:32 UTC
This thread should be locked. It's only servinvg the self serving, hypocrit halfbrains now and there's not enough contra to the ESS for it to become a threadnaught anyway.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#629 - 2014-01-18 15:01:15 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The slot machine has a guaranteed payout (OE + Bounties) this equates to a guarantee of around 100 million per site. Most sites take 30 to 60 minutes. The recent screen I linked showed 6 OE + 6 high end mod drops one of which was worth 1.5 billion. That equates logically to a 100% chance of bonus super bling per pull of that lever.


Someone needs a repetition of their probability class.

In short, no - it's entirely possible for a person to run X amount of DED plexes and receive nothing but OE as a reward. It happens a lot, actually and saying every DED is a BS BPC/X-Types is like saying every faction rat is 100m mods, and "Tags + Ammo" drops never happen. And a sample of 6 runs by one person is hardly evidence, sorry - I could as well slap a screen of 8 OE's and nothing after a round of plexes that produced exactly nothing. Edge cases happen all the time.

Rewards distribution is random, so let's not fall into gambler's fallacy here and assume drop rewards are always high. When it comes to time vs. ISK earned you also need to factor in travel time, scanning and days you just can't get your hands on a DED. Mostly because they're easily depleted - a region can sustain only a limited amount of people running them, much like a ratting system can only sustain so many ratters.

(Compared to limitless and riskless hisec, which - to be quite honest - is most of the argument. Seeing as a lot of people keep forgetting, it's usually not about how much raw money you can pull out of this. Similarily, the ESS argument isn't as much about 5% loss of already low bounties as it is about it being useless.)

The case of "let's park a smartie battleship next to it!" - why? It's a ~150-200m investment that could be spent elsewhere, and a character doing something else. It's also a sitting duck for a gang - intie (nullified) goes in, tackles it, easy kill coming up for its gang. POS Gunner? Again, why bother, that gunning alt could be doing something useful. You'd be doing all this while risking 20% of your systemwide income to merely regain the old ratting income which was ******* low anyway.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#630 - 2014-01-18 15:02:05 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Chirjo Durruti wrote:
This tool is not meant to be used for PvE. It can be used for it, but it's stupid. Why PvP? It is basically a bounty siphon/inhibitor unit for small roaming gangs and a tool for a war of attrition.

What happens when a roaming gang runs around somewhere? Most people dock up or POS up. What happens when they leave? They crawl back out of the woodworks.

What happens if the same roaming gang runs around and drops ESSes everywhere? Most people dock/POS up, wait for the guys to leave, go shoot the ESS then continue ratting. If someone stays behind to press the steal button on the ESS, that guy's basically doing the same thing an AFK cloaker would.

The ESS module in and of itself won't do **** except make people shoot it when the roaming gang leaves.

Roaming gang spotted in your intel channel 5 jumps out. Everyone in system reshipping to PvP. Drop ESS, all log off in ESS bubble. Roaming gang arrives, attacks ESS brick tank bait, you log in trap pew pew, roaming gang dead.

How is this even remotely bad. ESS can be powerful as defense, stop thinking like victims.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Fix Sov
#631 - 2014-01-18 15:03:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Roaming gang arrives

sees obvious bait and moves on.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#632 - 2014-01-18 15:10:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Chirjo Durruti wrote:
This tool is not meant to be used for PvE. It can be used for it, but it's stupid. Why PvP? It is basically a bounty siphon/inhibitor unit for small roaming gangs and a tool for a war of attrition.

What happens when a roaming gang runs around somewhere? Most people dock up or POS up. What happens when they leave? They crawl back out of the woodworks.

What happens if the same roaming gang runs around and drops ESSes everywhere? Most people dock/POS up, wait for the guys to leave, go shoot the ESS then continue ratting. If someone stays behind to press the steal button on the ESS, that guy's basically doing the same thing an AFK cloaker would.

The ESS module in and of itself won't do **** except make people shoot it when the roaming gang leaves.

Roaming gang spotted in your intel channel 5 jumps out. Everyone in system reshipping to PvP. Drop ESS, all log off in ESS bubble. Roaming gang arrives, attacks ESS brick tank bait, you log in trap pew pew, roaming gang dead.

How is this even remotely bad. ESS can be powerful as defense, stop thinking like victims.


Roaming gang arrives. Roaming gang sees local spike. Roaming gang is majorily fast cruisers/inties, they leg it before the other side loads grid. No pvp is had.

Other case which is roaming gang comes in looking for a fight already happens, only they **** up local and shoot station services. Producing the expected results if the alliance wants to fight them and can form the numbers. If the alliance won't fight them, they won't fight them over an ESS - thinking the ESS is a good pvp bait is being like a wide-eyed idealist in all this.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#633 - 2014-01-18 15:14:14 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Chirjo Durruti wrote:
This tool is not meant to be used for PvE. It can be used for it, but it's stupid. Why PvP? It is basically a bounty siphon/inhibitor unit for small roaming gangs and a tool for a war of attrition.

What happens when a roaming gang runs around somewhere? Most people dock up or POS up. What happens when they leave? They crawl back out of the woodworks.

What happens if the same roaming gang runs around and drops ESSes everywhere? Most people dock/POS up, wait for the guys to leave, go shoot the ESS then continue ratting. If someone stays behind to press the steal button on the ESS, that guy's basically doing the same thing an AFK cloaker would.

The ESS module in and of itself won't do **** except make people shoot it when the roaming gang leaves.

Roaming gang spotted in your intel channel 5 jumps out. Everyone in system reshipping to PvP. Drop ESS, all log off in ESS bubble. Roaming gang arrives, attacks ESS brick tank bait, you log in trap pew pew, roaming gang dead.

How is this even remotely bad. ESS can be powerful as defense, stop thinking like victims.


Is anyone here actually stupid enough to take a fight like that?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#634 - 2014-01-18 15:17:22 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The slot machine has a guaranteed payout (OE + Bounties) this equates to a guarantee of around 100 million per site. Most sites take 30 to 60 minutes. The recent screen I linked showed 6 OE + 6 high end mod drops one of which was worth 1.5 billion. That equates logically to a 100% chance of bonus super bling per pull of that lever.


Someone needs a repetition of their probability class.

In short, no - it's entirely possible for a person to run X amount of DED plexes and receive nothing but OE as a reward. It happens a lot, actually and saying every DED is a BS BPC/X-Types is like saying every faction rat is 100m mods, and "Tags + Ammo" drops never happen. And a sample of 6 runs by one person is hardly evidence, sorry - I could as well slap a screen of 8 OE's and nothing after a round of plexes that produced exactly nothing. Edge cases happen all the time.

Rewards distribution is random, so let's not fall into gambler's fallacy here and assume drop rewards are always high. When it comes to time vs. ISK earned you also need to factor in travel time, scanning and days you just can't get your hands on a DED. Mostly because they're easily depleted - a region can sustain only a limited amount of people running them, much like a ratting system can only sustain so many ratters.

(Compared to limitless and riskless hisec, which - to be quite honest - is most of the argument. Seeing as a lot of people keep forgetting, it's usually not about how much raw money you can pull out of this. Similarily, the ESS argument isn't as much about 5% loss of already low bounties as it is about it being useless.)

The case of "let's park a smartie battleship next to it!" - why? It's a ~150-200m investment that could be spent elsewhere, and a character doing something else. It's also a sitting duck for a gang - intie (nullified) goes in, tackles it, easy kill coming up for its gang. POS Gunner? Again, why bother, that gunning alt could be doing something useful. You'd be doing all this while risking 20% of your systemwide income to merely regain the old ratting income which was ******* low anyway.

You missed the part about bounties and OE which are 100% probability.

Also randomness and predictability. If I set a random variable which pulls 10 numbers from 1 to 100 and another from 1 to 1,000 I can accurately predict that 5 will appear 10 times more often from the first variable than the second.

Since I ran 6 sites and obtained 6 high end mods I can conclude that the probability is high for high end drops.

Since I have repeated this and consistently obtained the same results this confirms my conclusion that mod drops are high. This is called science. Science is not about proving its about consistency in theory. Even a law is not required to be proven, it requires that it hasn't been disproven.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#635 - 2014-01-18 15:18:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Chirjo Durruti wrote:
This tool is not meant to be used for PvE. It can be used for it, but it's stupid. Why PvP? It is basically a bounty siphon/inhibitor unit for small roaming gangs and a tool for a war of attrition.

What happens when a roaming gang runs around somewhere? Most people dock up or POS up. What happens when they leave? They crawl back out of the woodworks.

What happens if the same roaming gang runs around and drops ESSes everywhere? Most people dock/POS up, wait for the guys to leave, go shoot the ESS then continue ratting. If someone stays behind to press the steal button on the ESS, that guy's basically doing the same thing an AFK cloaker would.

The ESS module in and of itself won't do **** except make people shoot it when the roaming gang leaves.

Roaming gang spotted in your intel channel 5 jumps out. Everyone in system reshipping to PvP. Drop ESS, all log off in ESS bubble. Roaming gang arrives, attacks ESS brick tank bait, you log in trap pew pew, roaming gang dead.

How is this even remotely bad. ESS can be powerful as defense, stop thinking like victims.


Is anyone here actually stupid enough to take a fight like that?

Log on traps are very effective.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Fix Sov
#636 - 2014-01-18 15:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix Sov
"Gee a rokh is sitting on an ESS, this isn't obviously a trap"

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#637 - 2014-01-18 15:25:56 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
"Gee a roch is sitting on an ESS, this isn't obviously a trap"


Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dave Stark
#638 - 2014-01-18 15:27:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because as I have shown


i'm lazy; link.

still waiting for this magical proof.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#639 - 2014-01-18 15:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Fix Sov wrote:
"Gee a roch is sitting on an ESS, this isn't obviously a trap"

LMAO. So there's your answer. Sit a Rohk on an ESS your now completely safe due to "it's a trap".

Obviously it's an interesting module given the number of variations for both defensive, offensive, subterfuge.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#640 - 2014-01-18 15:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Infinity Ziona wrote:


I think its more likely that you're trying to argue a fallacy. Its a fallacy to say there are not enough anoms to go around. You're Goons, you guys used to undock enmasse in anything and everything and in doing so you managed to beat one of the most sophisticated and rich alliances in the game.



Ah you mean the lesser anomalies - the things you get when not in the 3 or 4 best rat holes in each region ?

Ishtar, 926 dps (5 damage mods, 4 guns, fast locking), presume your escalations are to safe space and you won't be camped/failed to get to one whatever, includes fetch plexboat and travel time in escalation and time to complete escalation.

hidden den. 13 minutes, 6.5m isk. 30m/hr raw with escalation (1 in 73**), 54m/hr. (ded 6 - 400m expected)
Rally point. 7 minutes, 3.5m isk. 27m/hr + escalation (1 in 100) 64m/hr. (ded 6 - 400m expected).
*Port. 9 minutes 8.3m isk, 55m/hr + escalation (1 in 25). 78m/hr. (ded 7 - 213m expected).
forsaken den. 8 minutes, 4.5m isk. 33.7m/hr + escalation (1 in 25). 66m/hr. (ded 7 - 213m expected).
forlorn den. 15 minutes, 11.4m isk, 45.6m/hr + escalation (1 in 50**). 55m/hr. (ded 7 - 213m expected).
forlorn rally point. 19 minutes, 16.5m isk, 52m/hr + escalation (1 in 40**). 62m/hr (ded 8 - 230m expected).

*nb ports gets royally screwed up at military 3.
**poor samples at this point.

Now what did tauranon shoot in her last 40 minutes of Ports you might ask.
2014.01.18 13:12:21 Bounty Prizes 13,113,566.00 ISK
2014.01.18 12:52:21 Bounty Prizes 8,997,563.00 ISK

What should tauranon shoot in her ports (military 2 before they stuff up at military 3).
2014.01.11 13:04:25 Bounty Prizes 19,752,193.00 ISK
2014.01.11 12:44:24 Bounty Prizes 19,023,755.00 ISK

Note that most of my ticks look like the former, and not the latter, and that is caused by traffic. L4 mission running is basically uninterrupted, and if you are talking about the average sov null holding line member, they will undoubtedly play largely during peak server hours, when traffic is pretty much a given. Even if 60m potential is there, it just never happens.