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POS Bashing in Empire 2.0?

Author
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-01-12 17:20:39 UTC
Hello CCP & EVE Community,

I'm no where near a game designer but something that I've been thinking about for awhile now and after having look at the differences I've realized there is no REAL way to POS bash in empire. We're spending obscene amounts of hours slowly bashing away. Seeing is how we don't have Dreadnoughts in high-sec nor any other kind of ship that pushes anywhere near the DPS or Volley of a Dread I feel this is very imbalanced.

This way I am looking at it for being unbalanced is when you can do something in less then half the time with A LOT less ships then normally intended well it's broke. There have been corporations in the past that I've seen bring 30-40 Battleships to kill a POS which yeah that's great but when that's what it requires to kill a heavily defended POS in empire that's a bit ridiculous. This doesn't even count if the POS has a ridiculous amount of hardeners which just further increases the EHP even more.

Again I'm by no means a game designer I just feel it's rather unbalanced that it takes a rather decent sized fleet in BS's to reinforce/kill a POS. It can obviously be done with less then 30-40 but it all comes down to how much time you want to spend shooting the damn thing which in most cases is NEVER because they take so long to kill.

Now where as in low sec you can just drop 10-12 dreads or what ever and poof its reinforced and 1 day or what ever later it's dead if not defended.

Discussion Time! xD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyone have some feedback or ideas on how we could make it better & please CCP reply to this thread giving feedback about if you disagree or agree / feedback of some sort?. With the new implementations of "Mobile Structures" I think I recall a screen shot and one of the things was "Mobile Hybrid/Laser/Projectile Turret"

Could these aid against POS's and be controlled to shoot the tower?

I'm deffo not asking for some uber-weapon to come along and obliterate POS's or anything I just want something that helps put everything back in line so that even POS's in Empire have a better chance of being destroyed. People shouldn't have the safety net just cause their POS is in High-Sec.

I'd really love support on this and see what other ideas could be built upon this topic.

Thanks for taking the time to read this thread
~Ammut Irvam
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2 - 2014-01-12 17:27:45 UTC
So what is the issue? If someone has invested into defending their pos, why should you be able to solo it? What's the issue bringing 30 BS along. It's obviously an active POS if you need that many.
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-01-12 17:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammut Irvam
It's the damage difference between how many ships you have to bring to reinforce or destroy the tower compared to the dreads you can bring in low.

I don't want towers to be able to be soloed cause that would break the game then

Edit2: I want it to be more in line with dreads in low or null. It shouldn't require 30-40 battleships or even 20 really I don't think.

Dreads have WAY more dps and volley, WAY better tanks everything.. Dreads damage and EHP can match that of a POS which is good. it was intended to be like that I'm sure.

Where as Battleships are not. Another thing is you need so many Battleships to kill a decently defended POS and how often do you really see 30-40 dudes get on and be like "Aight guys lets get in to our BS's and go bash this POS"... Hell I'd hear people crying over bashing POS's in 0.0 from time to time even with Dreads at our side.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-01-12 17:39:39 UTC
Counterpoint: How do you make the towers easier to kill without making dreads obsolete? If your highsec tower basher thingy is able to do it in a reasonable time, what happens when they get spammed massively in null or low? Dreads lock you in place for five minutes at a minimum, your methods would need to do considerably more, else they'd be much more cost effective and with lower risk than using a cap fleet.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-01-12 17:50:35 UTC
Let dreads and only dreads into highsec, via gates? a Terrible idea yes, the freighter pilots will crap their pods, but those dreads are tasty targets, move like molasses in Siberia and have been hit really hard by adjustments to make them cap/structure only bashers. Sure it can take out a freighter, but is it cost effective?

Dreads would in fact BE the new freighters, target wise. Cap ship, armed to the teeth but unable to hit anything smaller than a cap ship, worth over 1 bill.

Just make siege unusable in highsec, or an offense. Suicide gank hits dread, dread gets worried, goes into siege, concord takes him out. or doesn't and dies to dessies. Laughs either way.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-01-12 17:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammut Irvam
Danika Princip wrote:
Counterpoint: How do you make the towers easier to kill without making dreads obsolete? If your highsec tower basher thingy is able to do it in a reasonable time, what happens when they get spammed massively in null or low? Dreads lock you in place for five minutes at a minimum, your methods would need to do considerably more, else they'd be much more cost effective and with lower risk than using a cap fleet.


Hey Danika,

This is why I'm asking for CCP's input and the communities as I dunno how it'd get done without making dreads obsolete. All I know is towers are considerably harder to kill in empire then in low or null.
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-01-12 17:55:07 UTC
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
Let dreads and only dreads into highsec, via gates? a Terrible idea yes, the freighter pilots will crap their pods, but those dreads are tasty targets, move like molasses in Siberia and have been hit really hard by adjustments to make them cap/structure only bashers. Sure it can take out a freighter, but is it cost effective?

Dreads would in fact BE the new freighters, target wise. Cap ship, armed to the teeth but unable to hit anything smaller than a cap ship, worth over 1 bill.

Just make siege unusable in highsec, or an offense. Suicide gank hits dread, dread gets worried, goes into siege, concord takes him out. or doesn't and dies to dessies. Laughs either way.


Na, I don't want anything that'd change current mechanics in that sense by allowing a ship where it shouldn't be.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-01-12 18:03:36 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Counterpoint: How do you make the towers easier to kill without making dreads obsolete? If your highsec tower basher thingy is able to do it in a reasonable time, what happens when they get spammed massively in null or low? Dreads lock you in place for five minutes at a minimum, your methods would need to do considerably more, else they'd be much more cost effective and with lower risk than using a cap fleet.


now i will defend the op to some amount but i see your point.

Why not create a pos bashing bs ala abc. It can fit 2 XL-Guns but to use them it has to enter bastion mode. With the bastion mode it would be unmoveable and get a good boost to reps but it would have real low structure, armor and shield hp thx to the need to cut corners everywhere to fit the systems to support the bastion module and those guns. That would create a niché for those bs but their weak tank and anchor would make them susceptible to attacks by a defending fleet or the defense turrets. The thing im not sure if their raw dps would make dreads then obsolete.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-01-12 18:04:30 UTC
Ammut Irvam wrote:
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
Let dreads and only dreads into highsec, via gates? a Terrible idea yes, the freighter pilots will crap their pods, but those dreads are tasty targets, move like molasses in Siberia and have been hit really hard by adjustments to make them cap/structure only bashers. Sure it can take out a freighter, but is it cost effective?

Dreads would in fact BE the new freighters, target wise. Cap ship, armed to the teeth but unable to hit anything smaller than a cap ship, worth over 1 bill.

Just make siege unusable in highsec, or an offense. Suicide gank hits dread, dread gets worried, goes into siege, concord takes him out. or doesn't and dies to dessies. Laughs either way.


Na, I don't want anything that'd change current mechanics in that sense by allowing a ship where it shouldn't be.


oh but they SHOULD. They only shouldn't have been there when they were effective against everything. carriers still are effective against everything ( well they can target and hit anything with drones), supercaps... no need to go there, but dreads are only for shooting big stuff, so let them into empire. Make POS bashing another, more expensive layer of war. Pay extra to attack another corps infrastructure.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-01-12 18:06:17 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Counterpoint: How do you make the towers easier to kill without making dreads obsolete? If your highsec tower basher thingy is able to do it in a reasonable time, what happens when they get spammed massively in null or low? Dreads lock you in place for five minutes at a minimum, your methods would need to do considerably more, else they'd be much more cost effective and with lower risk than using a cap fleet.


now i will defend the op to some amount but i see your point.

Why not create a pos bashing bs ala abc. It can fit 2 XL-Guns but to use them it has to enter bastion mode. With the bastion mode it would be unmoveable and get a good boost to reps but it would have real low structure, armor and shield hp thx to the need to cut corners everywhere to fit the systems to support the bastion module and those guns. That would create a niché for those bs but their weak tank and anchor would make them susceptible to attacks by a defending fleet or the defense turrets. The thing im not sure if their raw dps would make dreads then obsolete.


Why make another ship that will give headaches to devs when players find a way to exploit them? They will, it happens every time.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-01-12 18:10:59 UTC
Uhh, why should dreads be allowed in? They're not going to become targets like freighters are, because they're not going to be hauling 20b of expensive gear around. They're ~3b, most of which is the price of the hull. A hull which can and will tank endless amounts of destroyers.

Sure, it'd be funny to see them go down to wardecs, but that'd be the only threat to them (Other than more dreads I guess, but honestly, massed capital brawls in highsec?)
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-01-12 18:19:27 UTC
Yeah Dreads is OP in Empire honestly and not needed. I also agree with Dolorous Tremmens about NOT introducing another ship because making a new ship just for the sole purpose of POS Bashing it would get exploited and used in a way that's not intended and it really does always happen.
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-01-12 18:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammut Irvam
Another thing I wanted to bring up while it's on my mind is well this is EVE Online and in most cases it's always about the numbers... Well this is sorta true for POS's...

You can use dreads/carriers in low and null to attack a POS but you still don't need that much. The argument I am trying to make here is you can use 3-4-5 dreads what ever to attack a tower and be fine.. where as in high sec if your corporation is only like 5-7 dudes and the tower is decently defended well you're ****-outta luck pretty much... there's just not even a "and or but" about it there's nothing you can do really to kill that tower.

At least in low sec you can take your 6-7 man corp and deploy dreads and hope you don't get hot dropped. If you do manage to not get dropped well grats you just reinforced/killed the tower.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-01-12 18:25:15 UTC
Ammut Irvam wrote:
Yeah Dreads is OP in Empire honestly and not needed. I also agree with Dolorous Tremmens about NOT introducing another ship because making a new ship just for the sole purpose of POS Bashing it would get exploited and used in a way that's not intended and it really does always happen.


i know but thats the only way i can see a solution to the idea.
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-01-12 18:32:37 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Ammut Irvam wrote:
Yeah Dreads is OP in Empire honestly and not needed. I also agree with Dolorous Tremmens about NOT introducing another ship because making a new ship just for the sole purpose of POS Bashing it would get exploited and used in a way that's not intended and it really does always happen.


i know but thats the only way i can see a solution to the idea.


I would have to agree really that it is a solution and I could actually see CCP implementing a ship honestly. Look at Mauraders & Bastion mode or Tier 3 BC's using large guns.

There have been a lot of new additions to the game all via new ship or ship roles so I wouldn't be far off from this but idk as long as it was done right and wasn't abused or at least put something in and see how it gets abused and then fix it or fine tune it. but iunno.

I just wish POS bashing was more in line with low or nullsec bash cause atm it's rarely ever done cause of the amount of time it takes and the people as well.

Any decent defended tower in empire is just pretty much gonna forever sit there especially if it has any kind of backup fleet. In low sec you have caps, super caps etc.. the large fleets etc.. a lot of other ways to kill POS's where as in empire it's very little. it's just not the same.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-01-12 18:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Danika Princip wrote:
Uhh, why should dreads be allowed in? They're not going to become targets like freighters are, because they're not going to be hauling 20b of expensive gear around. They're ~3b, most of which is the price of the hull. A hull which can and will tank endless amounts of destroyers.

Sure, it'd be funny to see them go down to wardecs, but that'd be the only threat to them (Other than more dreads I guess, but honestly, massed capital brawls in highsec?)

Yes, Let them learn the pain of Ti-di. The dreads? well they're in highsec on lawful wartime business, why shouldn't they be allowed in. the agressors already bribed concord, another very hefty bribe lets the dreads in. with a promise to behave, of course.

Ah well, I was hoping to bring a bit of null to highsec, in hopes that they would stop trying to bring highsec to null.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2014-01-12 18:56:05 UTC
Here's my "solution"...

Ban the ability for people to anchor anything larger than a medium POS in high-sec.


No need to introduce a new ship that has to be balanced against all the other ships in the game, high-sec POS operators can continue to do what they do (they just can't create grossly powerful "deathstars"), and you don't have to worry about capital shenanigans in high-sec (may they never enter high-sec... ever).

This could be best implemented by grandfathering in the old large POSs but preventing any new ones from being anchored.
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-01-12 18:57:55 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here's my "solution"...

Ban the ability for people to anchor anything larger than a medium POS in high-sec.


No need to introduce a new ship that has to be balanced against all the other ships in the game, high-sec POS operators can continue to do what they do (they just can't create grossly powerful "deathstars"), and you don't have to worry about capital shenanigans in high-sec (may they never enter high-sec... ever).

This could be best implemented by grandfathering in the old large POSs but preventing any new ones from being anchored.


Actually a decent idea holy **** LOL
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#19 - 2014-01-13 00:01:19 UTC
Ammut Irvam wrote:
It's the damage difference between how many ships you have to bring to reinforce or destroy the tower compared to the dreads you can bring in low.


that's the difference right there. dreads can not go into high sec unless they're really old dreads from way back when a few people built them there, same with carriers. if you want to kill a active pos in high sec you have to work for it, not expect it to be easy. even before dreads and carriers were in the game how do you think pos's were killed then?
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-01-13 05:34:22 UTC
sci0gon wrote:
Ammut Irvam wrote:
It's the damage difference between how many ships you have to bring to reinforce or destroy the tower compared to the dreads you can bring in low.


that's the difference right there. dreads can not go into high sec unless they're really old dreads from way back when a few people built them there, same with carriers. if you want to kill a active pos in high sec you have to work for it, not expect it to be easy. even before dreads and carriers were in the game how do you think pos's were killed then?


That was then mate.. I am talking about now and with the current game evolving and changing, CCP hasn't done anything to rebalance POS Warfare in empire to help bring it back in line with everything else. Yes POS's can still be taken down but that's just the problem.. their almost NEVER taken down in empire because no one wants to spend 8-14 or more hours bashing a POS.

There is that thin line where it's a game and games need balance. If something is soo mundane that it's rarely done then obviously it's broken and needs to be looked at. Also those dreads that were build in empire CAN'T be used period. If you're caught using them for combat or even neutral repping on stations the GM's will MOVE your ship out of empire so those dreads/carriers don't even matter.

The dreads/carriers in Empire are purely trophies I guess you can say? You are allowed to use them in missions if you happen to have one IN a mission system but other then that they're just there to look pretty.

You say people should have to "work" for it.. again there is that line where "How much work" should be required. Yes it should be harder considering caps are not allowed in empire but with the way POS's are currently you can just throw up a Death Star and it's gonna take 40-50 dudes to kill it which again when was the last time you saw 40-50 dudes gather up in high-sec to bash a tower? It just doesn't happen because no one wants to spend the ridiculous amount of time it's gonna take to kill it and if the tower you are bashing has any kind of backup fleet support well good luck especially if you have people controlling the turrets to pretty much alpha any ship on the field.
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