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POS Bashing in Empire 2.0?
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-01-13 06:17:05 UTC
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-01-13 06:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Let dreads into some highsec systems say .5-.8, but don't let them dock anywhere in highsec. .9-1.0 get a reduction in maximum tower size, down to mediums. Concord will not defend dreads from attack at any security level. Dreads may still only be manufactured outside highsec.

since anyone can take potshots, the buildup may need to be slower each dread needing an escort, and likely require a staging pos in system or neighboring system.

They will be able to jump out, and dock in lowsec of course, but getting to their target and killing it should give enough time to rally a counterfleet for an engagement in a more public arena.

Just because they get to use dreads doesn't mean it should be easier, much the opposite in fact.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#23 - 2014-01-13 06:35:20 UTC
All it takes is 1 person to take down the most heavily defended POS, not 30-40 battleships.

Just infiltrate the corporation, and unanchor the pos when you convince them to give you the required roles. No need to make POS's easier to kill.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#24 - 2014-01-13 16:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Secret Squirrell
I like the idea of a pocket dread, but I don't think the current game mechanics can support it properly.

My Criteria

  • Tech 2 Battleship, uses gates, no jump drive
  • About 5k DPS when sieged - 5 min cycle
  • Worse tracking then a dread to reduce effect against battleships, no LR weapons
  • When being shot at by capital weapons, tank is about as good as a similarly fit dread
  • Tank is weak against subcaps, somewhat weak for a BS tank.
  • Cost 5-700m with basic fit


The problem is that there is no currently existing mechanic that makes a ship vulnerable to subcaps, and would work with siege. The current mechanic, sig tanking, doesn't work with an immobile, sieged ship. So what if we added a new mechanic, that said: after resists are applied, you can take a maximum of 500 damage per shot, per gun or drone firing at you? To game that out, assuming lets say an 80% resist profile:

Dread shoots you, 18875 alpha per gun, resists reduce it to 3775 per gun, its greater then 500, so your damage is capped at 500, an 85% reduction in incoming damage.

A Nado Shoots you, 1400 Alpha per gun, after tank its 280 damage, so 0 reduction in incoming damage. As 1400s are as alpha as it gets for subcaps, all other subcaps would only face your regular BS tank, and not get any reduction from the mechanic, besides maybe bombs.

You could also go full blap fit, no tank; at which point you still take 500 damage from the dread, 500 damage from the nado, a 60% reduction, but 90-100% damage from a blaster mega or anything set up for brawling.

Edit:
Note, that it would take 2 to kill a freighter, at 1.4B, its not any cheaper then a talos fleet, and way more then a catalyst fleet if suicide
Sieging in highsec should trigger immediate suspect flag
Perhaps make it unbridgeable to further balance it outside highsec.
Also, change all highsec deployables to not trigger concord when shot, like mobile depots etc... (so POS/Customs)
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-01-13 17:24:00 UTC
Secret Squirrell wrote:
I like the idea of a pocket dread, but I don't think the current game mechanics can support it properly.

My Criteria

  • Tech 2 Battleship, uses gates, no jump drive
  • About 5k DPS when sieged - 5 min cycle
  • Worse tracking then a dread to reduce effect against battleships, no LR weapons
  • When being shot at by capital weapons, tank is about as good as a similarly fit dread
  • Tank is weak against subcaps, somewhat weak for a BS tank.
  • Cost 5-700m with basic fit


The problem is that there is no currently existing mechanic that makes a ship vulnerable to subcaps, and would work with siege. The current mechanic, sig tanking, doesn't work with an immobile, sieged ship. So what if we added a new mechanic, that said: after resists are applied, you can take a maximum of 500 damage per shot, per gun or drone firing at you? To game that out, assuming lets say an 80% resist profile:

Dread shoots you, 18875 alpha per gun, resists reduce it to 3775 per gun, its greater then 500, so your damage is capped at 500, an 85% reduction in incoming damage.

A Nado Shoots you, 1400 Alpha per gun, after tank its 280 damage, so 0 reduction in incoming damage. As 1400s are as alpha as it gets for subcaps, all other subcaps would only face your regular BS tank, and not get any reduction from the mechanic, besides maybe bombs.

You could also go full blap fit, no tank; at which point you still take 500 damage from the dread, 500 damage from the nado, a 60% reduction, but 90-100% damage from a blaster mega or anything set up for brawling.

Edit:
Note, that it would take 2 to kill a freighter, at 1.4B, its not any cheaper then a talos fleet, and way more then a catalyst fleet if suicide
Sieging in highsec should trigger immediate suspect flag
Perhaps make it unbridgeable to further balance it outside highsec.
Also, change all highsec deployables to not trigger concord when shot, like mobile depots etc... (so POS/Customs)



Neuts would be an answers, and an easier one that blocking siege, without which the dreads might as well not be there.
Dreads would be meat to a subcap fleet, if they didn't have an escort. The reason why I'm confident allowing dreads back is the balances that have been applied. The effective threats from dreads are all to xlarge things, caps, pos, sov structures and outposts.

I don't believe in any kind of tinkering with the damage formulae, aside from tiercide etc. balances. Having a gun damage cap makes a lot of mods, implants and skills superfluous, and takes the whole point away from bombs. Also unbalances guns a bit, knowing you can only do 500 per gun, with 8 guns max, any ship can now only fire off 4000 damage per volley, all else would be written off, however, Guns with lower damage and higher cycle time will bypass this and deal greater effective dps, making some weapons now vastly OP compared to others.

Making it unbridgeable would do well as an additional handicap, I figured that the initial parade to the staging pos/target would provide ample time/opportunity for ambush and attacks. The handicaps provided make for a hobbled dread, and while they could be used against battleships, the battle would be one sided, and a cap pilot would would no longer be a cap pilot.

When you look at it, the only possible job they could do in highsec is shoot a pos, or attempt defend a pos from dreads, meanwhile they're a free for all target, worth a bill, and they have expensive if bulky mods. Gankers ahoy.


Get some Eve. Make it yours.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#26 - 2014-01-13 17:58:51 UTC
Allow Dreads to enter Highsec, make them go suspect when they undock for using illegal weaponry or whatever.

If everyone is allowed to shoot the dread, I think it should be okay to have them in high.

My Condor costs less than that module!
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#27 - 2014-01-13 20:48:38 UTC
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
Secret Squirrell wrote:
I like the idea of a pocket dread, but I don't think the current game mechanics can support it properly.

My Criteria

  • Tech 2 Battleship, uses gates, no jump drive
  • About 5k DPS when sieged - 5 min cycle
  • Worse tracking then a dread to reduce effect against battleships, no LR weapons
  • When being shot at by capital weapons, tank is about as good as a similarly fit dread
  • Tank is weak against subcaps, somewhat weak for a BS tank.
  • Cost 5-700m with basic fit


The problem is that there is no currently existing mechanic that makes a ship vulnerable to subcaps, and would work with siege. The current mechanic, sig tanking, doesn't work with an immobile, sieged ship. So what if we added a new mechanic, that said: after resists are applied, you can take a maximum of 500 damage per shot, per gun or drone firing at you? To game that out, assuming lets say an 80% resist profile:

Dread shoots you, 18875 alpha per gun, resists reduce it to 3775 per gun, its greater then 500, so your damage is capped at 500, an 85% reduction in incoming damage.

A Nado Shoots you, 1400 Alpha per gun, after tank its 280 damage, so 0 reduction in incoming damage. As 1400s are as alpha as it gets for subcaps, all other subcaps would only face your regular BS tank, and not get any reduction from the mechanic, besides maybe bombs.

You could also go full blap fit, no tank; at which point you still take 500 damage from the dread, 500 damage from the nado, a 60% reduction, but 90-100% damage from a blaster mega or anything set up for brawling.

Edit:
Note, that it would take 2 to kill a freighter, at 1.4B, its not any cheaper then a talos fleet, and way more then a catalyst fleet if suicide
Sieging in highsec should trigger immediate suspect flag
Perhaps make it unbridgeable to further balance it outside highsec.
Also, change all highsec deployables to not trigger concord when shot, like mobile depots etc... (so POS/Customs)



Neuts would be an answers, and an easier one that blocking siege, without which the dreads might as well not be there.
Dreads would be meat to a subcap fleet, if they didn't have an escort. The reason why I'm confident allowing dreads back is the balances that have been applied. The effective threats from dreads are all to xlarge things, caps, pos, sov structures and outposts.

I don't believe in any kind of tinkering with the damage formulae, aside from tiercide etc. balances. Having a gun damage cap makes a lot of mods, implants and skills superfluous, and takes the whole point away from bombs. Also unbalances guns a bit, knowing you can only do 500 per gun, with 8 guns max, any ship can now only fire off 4000 damage per volley, all else would be written off, however, Guns with lower damage and higher cycle time will bypass this and deal greater effective dps, making some weapons now vastly OP compared to others.

Making it unbridgeable would do well as an additional handicap, I figured that the initial parade to the staging pos/target would provide ample time/opportunity for ambush and attacks. The handicaps provided make for a hobbled dread, and while they could be used against battleships, the battle would be one sided, and a cap pilot would would no longer be a cap pilot.

When you look at it, the only possible job they could do in highsec is shoot a pos, or attempt defend a pos from dreads, meanwhile they're a free for all target, worth a bill, and they have expensive if bulky mods. Gankers ahoy.




I don't think your post adequately considers the effectiveness of dreads against battleship fleets. A well fit dread, will do 3.6k dps to a battleship ABing at max transversal at 40km, 20k alpha. You don't want to consider what happens when that BS gets webbed... Twice the alpha of a nado, cycling ever 4-5s. Drop 2 groups of dreads 50km apart, and any battleship trying to get in neut range of either group is going to be in a world of pain. Bring an orca for each group, and now you have tracking dreads that can refit in combat. It takes a lot of subcaps to take down a full tank refitted dread if you can't apply effective neut pressure. Bring along a support fleet, say some domis/logis to clump in the middle, and now you have a sphere of death that can kill literally anything that comes within 100km of the center.

There are a couple reasons this doesn't play out in lowsec/nullsec. First, most fights involving dreads are either dreads getting jumped shooting a structure, or dreads dropping on enemy caps. Second, the ever present threat of escalation. I drop tracking dreads on your BS fleet, you drop more dreads, or supers, or batphone someone 5 regions away, and by the time the seige cycle is up, you have hostile hics & caps landing. Without the risk of hostiles quickly jumping in from half way across the universe, its going to be much safer to field tracking dreads.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#28 - 2014-01-13 21:07:29 UTC
+1

The biggest issues affecting hisec pos warfare are twofold.

There is currently no limit to the number of anchored but offline modules, or cost associating with anchoring a crap-ton of them.
Anchoring and online times were reduced like 90% a few years ago.

Combined with the inability to use dreads and the necessity of broadcasting your attack 24h in advance, its very easy to defend your pos. Pos mods are relatively inexpensive (<4m for a neutralizer battery) and can be stocked en masse. Pos mods can be onlined/offline to counter the gang, and the mods that don't require ammo can be onlined and anchored as fast or faster than a group of 20 BS can incapacitate them.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-01-13 21:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Secret Squirrell wrote:
[
I don't think your post adequately considers the effectiveness of dreads against battleship fleets. A well fit dread, will do 3.6k dps to a battleship ABing at max transversal at 40km, 20k alpha. You don't want to consider what happens when that BS gets webbed... Twice the alpha of a nado, cycling ever 4-5s. Drop 2 groups of dreads 50km apart, and any battleship trying to get in neut range of either group is going to be in a world of pain. Bring an orca for each group, and now you have tracking dreads that can refit in combat. It takes a lot of subcaps to take down a full tank refitted dread if you can't apply effective neut pressure. Bring along a support fleet, say some domis/logis to clump in the middle, and now you have a sphere of death that can kill literally anything that comes within 100km of the center.

There are a couple reasons this doesn't play out in lowsec/nullsec. First, most fights involving dreads are either dreads getting jumped shooting a structure, or dreads dropping on enemy caps. Second, the ever present threat of escalation. I drop tracking dreads on your BS fleet, you drop more dreads, or supers, or batphone someone 5 regions away, and by the time the seige cycle is up, you have hostile hics & caps landing. Without the risk of hostiles quickly jumping in from half way across the universe, its going to be much safer to field tracking dreads.



All of this just makes me want it more, really. A new type of cap warfare.. without supercaps, or carriers to make the blobs extra blobby with too high of a drone:player ratio. instead of using BS's to take down the Dreads, they just drop down a ship class or two.
The curse still has decent neuting, even after the nerfing, and all the races have HAC's can pack quite a punch. Good that you brought up the t3's though, I can see them in the role of hit and fade from extreme range.

You know well enough that any kind of "sphere of death" fleet is nothing more than a challenge to be attacked by another doctrine set up to counter it. Tactical maybes aren't an argument aginst bringing Dreads back into highsec, remember they have to get there first. Something would have to be really game breaking, such as being able to gank in it and jump out, which is considered and exploit anyways ( from the early days of blops).

**edit-note: I don't actually want to participate in high sec dread battles, I just want more capsuleer exposure to cap fights, and new types of cap fights, and lots of burning wreckage, this is really about taking out pos after all, being able to shoot at them in highsec is just a bonus**

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Ammut Irvam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-01-13 21:36:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammut Irvam
I'd really love to thank everyone thus far for actually reading and providing feedback on everything. This is something that could be a huge game changer for sure if it's properly fixed / re-balanced by CCP considering we wouldn't have industry corps just sitting in empire endlessly making ISK without any real threat etc..

A lot of changes would come in to affect if empire POS Warfare is re-balanced which is what I'd love to see. See if we can keep coming up with ideas or solutions xD

Edit: Still would love to see a response from CCP to see what they think about this matter :D
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