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Petition: Ban Strip miners in career and starting systems !

First post
Author
Coyote Laughing
#1 - 2013-12-18 02:07:34 UTC
I hear the same question over and over "Where are all the asteroids?" in help and local chat.

Let's get the ISK farmers out of career and starting systems - they deliberately make the new player experience harder.

There is enough exploitation when it comes to market orders as it is (whistles innocently).

This game cannot survive without a steady influx of new players. More cheap minerals means cheap ships!

It's simple enough - reply and put your +1 here (or -1 if you are a hater).

l8r \o/

Barbarrossa Buchner
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-12-18 02:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbarrossa Buchner
Thoughts of a noob..


That was me asking.. (or one of the many)

The reply was -if the belt is farmed out there will be nothing left there. Easiest way to do it is jump once or twice and hit a surrounding spot.


Which I did. Hey you gotta push the baby out of the nest sometime.


MANY other things I found much harder as a noob rather than this. 20 days in and counting.



-1
The more I learn the more I realize just how much I don't know.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#3 - 2013-12-18 02:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Radius Prime
Although I do condemn botting, I am of the opinion that space belongs to everyone. I wont endorse splitting the universe up in zones for different types of players. I also believe it is good for new players to mingle with older player as soon as possible. EVE just isn't a fun single player experience. When they meet friends early on chances of them subscribing after trial become much bigger. An added bonus is they will learn to play that much faster.

Fly Safe o/

edit: Personally, I believe enough initiatives to make life easier on new players have been taken. Pampering them will have an adverse effect later on. Starting a new toon has already become way easier then it was years ago.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.

Coyote Laughing
#4 - 2013-12-18 02:58:58 UTC
There are supposed to be anti-griefer protections for players under 30 days old - this is a clear examples of activities that force players out into other systems where they are legitimate targets - especially when some career missions do not spawn the belt required.

I'm not stopping older players from mining in ventures - especially if they never went back and finished their career tutorials, just not hoovering up all the belts in the first 1-2 hours.

It doesn't affect me, I manufacture all that stuff needed for my new alts before I even start them.

l8r \o/

Jill Chastot
Black Water Oasis
#5 - 2013-12-18 03:12:42 UTC
" this is a clear examples of activities that force players out into other systems where they are legitimate targets"

And that is bad?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."

Asia Leigh
Dauntless Divergence
#6 - 2013-12-18 06:13:02 UTC
When I first started this game I had to leave system to mine needed materials for the industry tutorial arc, and had to manufacture the required materials in a different system as well.

It was perhaps the best thing that happened to me as this is where I met the core group of players that I hang out with in game. Does it make you a target for suicide gankers, sure, but there is also benefits from going outside the noob zone from time to time as well.

Also if you were to get ganked in your venture it will be a relatively cheap loss for even a new player, and it will give you experience in what you have to do to avoid getting ganked in the future, and you may even make friends in game.
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#7 - 2013-12-18 09:45:10 UTC
I wouldn't blame botters for newbie systems being farmed out. Blame the newbies.

Seriously.

Botters know there are more lucrative systems to farm even counting the occasional suicide gank. Newbies stick in the newbie systems and farm the place out because they are afraid to venture forth.

Venture forth. Go die a few times, learn it is no big deal. And go mine a real system.

you can also do missions and mine those. Asteroids aren't the only places to farm mats.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Good Apollo BS4
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-12-18 14:34:57 UTC
Solution...

Don't mine.
Oraac Ensor
#9 - 2013-12-18 14:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I wouldn't blame botters for newbie systems being farmed out. Blame the newbies.

Seriously.

Botters know there are more lucrative systems to farm even counting the occasional suicide gank.

I see nothing about botters in the OP.
Grimm Liberty
Avatar's Unrest
#10 - 2013-12-18 16:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimm Liberty
hmm, I'm new here, but I have not had any issues so far... All the missions have ore, IF you have Time to spend; mine it all, ignore the bonus credits, you'll get more ISK mining. IF, like me, you have a plan and want to rush, take the bonus ISK.

The 'starter' places that have been mined out are just one or two jumps from places that weren't.
0.8 space is not that bad... LOL

The Tutorial SHOULD have a message that says "If you get to the asteroid field and it's empty, it is mined out, try another or wait 20 minutes" ... heh

In a truly sandbox game I cannot for the life of me understand why you feel the need to take out sand and add water?
Kerrec Snowmane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-12-18 16:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kerrec Snowmane
I'm a newbie that got past that hurdle. Barely.

A lot of these replies shows a distinct lack of perspective.

"Just go to another solar system..."

"Risk losing your Venture, it'll be a good learning experience..."

Yeah, Bu!!Sh!t. A newbie that is doing the career tutorials has NO CLUE about anything. For example, I was told to fly to an asteroid belt and mine some ore. So I went to many asteroid belts and spent to much time to admit without being embarrassed trying to find an asteroid. I fooled around with my graphics settings. I fooled around with my Overview. I didn't even know then that I could fly manually, so I spent so much time zooming in and out, panning around in all directions so I could find an asteroid to be able to fly towards.

Because, in what game EVER, has a tutorial sent you to an area where the thing you need to find is not actually there? The newbie doesn't understand that someone else may have mined it all and there's nothing left. The newbie figures, this is where I was told to go, so if I don't see what I'm here to get, there's something wrong on my end. So they waste time. Get frustrated. In all my time learning EVE so far, this one issue is one that I found to be unacceptable.

I am not advocating kicking people out of "newbie" systems. At the very least, if you fly into an asteroid belt after being instructed to do so, and there are no asteroids, you should get a tutorial message saying,


  • "You do not see any asteroids here because there are none left. You will have to fly to another asteroid belt in this solar system. And if there are none there, you may have to fly to other solar systems."


In response to some of the other comments:

- Blame the newbies? Yeah, those newbies flying Ventures with 5000m3 ore holds who have no clue about jet can mining without industrial (trial accounts can't even train industrials!!!) ships capable of hauling more than the Venture can carry, with civilian mining lasers and level 1 skills are the ones stripping ALL the asteroid belts in a solar system. What a completely ignorant post. -1 internetz for you.

- Losing a Venture is no big deal? If a trial account, or even a subscribed newbie decides to focus on mining and hasn't done the other combat missions that try to let you know that losing a ship is normal and no big deal, who then flies out and gets ganked... Well he doesn't have a ship anymore. He figures he can't finish his mission. He may not even know how to buy another ship yet. And he's faced with a failed mission.


Whatever. I've done missions where I got junk ores that wasn't part of the EVE economy. Why couldn't the starter (career training) areas have asteroid field full of this junk ore? Completely useless except to finish a mining mission.

Somehow, I'm sure those asteroid fields would still get mined because I've come to realize that EVE players have a mentality of making the game as hard to learn as possible. That last bit may sound like tears to most of you, but I managed to get past the established players stupidity hurdle and am playing with my own goals and plans in mind. I like the concept of EVE, however I see the established player base harassing legit newbies because they suffered their own form of hazing when they started out. It's all stupid, and costs CCP potential income, which is what gets my knickers in a bunch.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-12-18 16:28:23 UTC
-0

Yes. The idea is good.

On the other hand I agree. Let new players move around to find a belt. This way they will find out that sometimes you have to look further then just the system you are in.

And highsec belts are not owned or what so ever. Who ever get to the belt first gets the best mining.

About new players being targets outside the rookie system. CCP actually changed the rules this year that griefing new player outside the rookie system can also be petitioned and each case will be dealt with on its own.
As I'm at work I cant link the GM post that is on the forums here. Just google for: "EVE Online forum Big Brother is watching". It's the second the OP + second to last post that explains it.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Kerrec Snowmane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-12-18 16:35:39 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
-0

Yes. The idea is good.

On the other hand I agree. Let new players move around to find a belt. This way they will find out that sometimes you have to look further then just the system you are in.

And highsec belts are not owned or what so ever. Who ever get to the belt first gets the best mining.

About new players being targets outside the rookie system. CCP actually changed the rules this year that griefing new player outside the rookie system can also be petitioned and each case will be dealt with on its own.
As I'm at work I cant link the GM post that is on the forums here. Just google for: "EVE Online forum Big Brother is watching". It's the second the OP + second to last post that explains it.


True newbies need instruction. At the very least they need to be told "there are no more asteroids here, you need to go to another solar system." Otherwise, they figure THEY did something wrong and WASTE time trying to figure out what that something is. When they finally learn (if they do) that a mission sent you to an asteroid belt that didn't contain what you were sent to get, then THEY BLAME THE GAME. They decide the game is buggy. They decide the game is poorly designed. And so on.

How would a rookie KNOW to petition being ganked?

In my eyes, they quit the game because they don't understand the mechanics. No need to lead them by the hand. But you do have to EXPLAIN what is going on.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-12-18 16:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
I like the concept of EVE, however I see the established player base harassing legit newbies because they suffered their own form of hazing when they started out. It's all stupid, and costs CCP potential income, which is what gets my knickers in a bunch.


+

Kerrec Snowmane wrote:


True newbies need instruction. At the very least they need to be told "there are no more asteroids here, you need to go to another solar system." Otherwise, they figure THEY did something wrong and WASTE time trying to figure out what that something is. When they finally learn (if they do) that a mission sent you to an asteroid belt that didn't contain what you were sent to get, then THEY BLAME THE GAME. They decide the game is buggy. They decide the game is poorly designed. And so on.

How would a rookie KNOW to petition being ganked?

In my eyes, they quit the game because they don't understand the mechanics. No need to lead them by the hand. But you do have to EXPLAIN what is going on.


You obviously haven't been to rookie systems often lately.

I know most of them also hold veterans who will answer any question a new player can have. The issue is that most of them play EVE like a single player game and don't interact.

The ones that do ask their question, usually get a quick response in local by some veteran or a fellow newbies that knows what to do.

Making the tutorials a "hand holding" thing will do actually the opposite of what you think it will do.
New players will get a false understanding of what EVE is and as soon as they do wonder out, they will be killed regardlessly or thrown in the deep just couple of hours/days later then is now the case.

As said, the main issue is....LACK of communication. It's a freaking MMO, socialize with people, CCP didn't make it impossible to close corp/local chat for no reason.


EDIT:

Hell. A lot of the time I hang out in a rookie system and it even has a veteran there who patrols the belts regular and if they are mined out. He announces it in local and tells newbies what to do.


E2:

Problem is that it's hard to patch any warnings into the game about stuff that based on player interaction. As a game can't predict what other players are (going to) do.

As for the rookie rules. IMO they should be listed / linked in the tutorial if they aren't already.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Kerrec Snowmane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-12-18 17:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kerrec Snowmane
I play games to explore. That means, what I find fun is: learning and discovery. I am not part of a corp (yet!) because I still have so much to learn and do still. That does not mean I will NEVER be part of a corp. Once the solo thing gets boring, I'll progress to group type play styles to keep things fresh.

What you are advocating is having a corp or just a random hold my hand and lead me along. How is that any different?

You are right, I have not been in a rookie system since the day I finished doing my career tutorials. Well, other than to buy skill books that is. Personally, I find resorting to asking Local chat to tell me what to do a failure. I like figuring things out. I did in the end ask in Local how to get out of my jam. And I was told to fly two systems over to do my mining. And I did, the whole time thinking, "that's stupid game design".

As to your solution: What if a newbie is trying to find an asteroid to mine, and there is no "veteran" in Local at that particular time? Your solution is a Band-Aid, not a solution.

EDIT:

Even if the rookie jumps into the local asteroid belt and there are asteroids to mine, Aura (or whatever the tutorial's AI name is) should STILL pop up and let you know that it's possible there may not be any asteroids in the belt, and that in those cases, it is necessary to go to another asteroid belt in this solar system, or possibly even in other solar systems.

Dead easy to code. Nothing complicated.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-12-18 18:09:52 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
As to your solution: What if a newbie is trying to find an asteroid to mine, and there is no "veteran" in Local at that particular time?
Then you use the Rookie Chat channel where there are always helpful players to answer your questions, including ISD representatives. Or the "Help" channel. Or your corp chat. Or this forum. I found that the EVE community is more helpful towards newbies than in any other game I've played. You can pretty much always find someone to answer your question.

The developers cannot predict any possible issue that a new player might have. Providing a help channel is a much more general solution than coding thousands of pop-ups.

(Oh and for that specific mission, you can just buy the tritanium on the market - or mine more in the first mission and then use these leftovers.)
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-12-18 18:13:01 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:


What you are advocating is having a corp or just a random hold my hand and lead me along. How is that any different?


Please, enlighten me where in my post I said that you should join a corp.

Please, do.


I said...be SOCIAL.

You do know you can talk people who are not in your corp???

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-12-18 18:16:23 UTC
You are right, I have not been in a rookie system since the day I finished doing my career tutorials. Well, other than to buy skill books that is. Personally, I find resorting to asking Local chat to tell me what to do a failure. I like figuring things out. I did in the end ask in Local how to get out of my jam. And I was told to fly two systems over to do my mining. And I did, the whole time thinking, "that's stupid game design".

All those I's...aka PERSONAL experience and preference.

Last time I checked, personal preference doesn't equal everybody else's.

And if you find resorting asking Local chat as a failure...I think you fail.

I rather ask anybody to help me then to stay clueless and try to re-invent the wheel by maybe making it round this time.



There is only 1 stupid question, that is the one you were afraid to ask.
No matter how stupid a question might look in your opinion, NOT asking it is more stupid in the end.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-12-18 18:18:43 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:

Even if the rookie jumps into the local asteroid belt and there are asteroids to mine, Aura (or whatever the tutorial's AI name is) should STILL pop up and let you know that it's possible there may not be any asteroids in the belt, and that in those cases, it is necessary to go to another asteroid belt in this solar system, or possibly even in other solar systems.

Dead easy to code. Nothing complicated.


With your reasoning...

Aura should pop up if all manufacturing slots are busy.
Aura should pop up if all research slots are taken.
Aura should pop up if a certain ship or module isn't available in system.


Ergo...your idea is class A hand holding...EVE isn't that kind of game.
EVE requires you to do some research or ask for help. If you fail at those 2 simple things, maybe EVE isn't the game for you.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-12-18 18:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Thomas Builder wrote:
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
As to your solution: What if a newbie is trying to find an asteroid to mine, and there is no "veteran" in Local at that particular time?
Then you use the Rookie Chat channel where there are always helpful players to answer your questions, including ISD representatives. Or the "Help" channel. Or your corp chat. Or this forum. I found that the EVE community is more helpful towards newbies than in any other game I've played. You can pretty much always find someone to answer your question.

The developers cannot predict any possible issue that a new player might have. Providing a help channel is a much more general solution than coding thousands of pop-ups.

(Oh and for that specific mission, you can just buy the tritanium on the market - or mine more in the first mission and then use these leftovers.)


This.

See...enough solutions are available as we speak. For those who play a multiplayer game.

Help channel + Rookie Help channel: Both moderated by ISD (who are picked because they want to teach new players and also because they know a lot about the game) and occasionally a CCP GM / CCP Dev. Not to mention the shitload of veterans in normal help who do answer questions as a "side activity".

Forums - New Citizen Q&A: Well, do we need to explain where they Q&A stands for.

Player created channels: Plenty of player created channels who don't mind answering a question if you have them.

Local / Corp chat: Both likely has 1 or a couple of people who will know the answer and will answer your question if they see it.


And I'm talking from experience about this.

The first 3 or 4 months in EVE, I tried to master everything solo. And failed at most things because I was clueless.
After I started asking questions, the pieces fell into place. I learned a lot (and still do) by talking to other players.
Even after 3 years, if I come across something that I don't know or not know for sure, I just open a chat channel with other helpful players (EVE Tutors) and ask it. Answer usually follows very quickly after the question.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

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