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Petition: Ban Strip miners in career and starting systems !

First post
Author
Kerrec Snowmane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-12-18 18:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kerrec Snowmane
I got past the mining tutorial hurdle because I stuck to it. It took that bit of "stupid game mechanics" as far as a tutorial goes, to convince me to dig into the game with Google, and on forums like these and Eve University.

However, I am an older person who, I believe, has much more patience than the average gamer. How many potentially paying customers did not subscribe because they found the game mechanics to be stupid?

I'm not asking for a 100% safe zone. I'm not asking to take away your playstyle. All I'm asking for in instruction for those players that are truly rookies. How hard is it to even change the wording of the mission itself, to point out that it may be necessary to go to another solar system to find a non-empty asteroid belt? Is that so hard? Will it ruin the caliber of EVE player you claim should belong to EVE? Are you afraid of change, even something so minor? Or are you the type of person that feels it is necessary to perpetuate the suffering? You suffered, so everyone else must too?

Should Aura pop up to point out that all manufacturing slots are busy? Yes, if it's part of a tutorial.
Should Aura pop up to point out [whatever], YES, if it's part of a TUTORIAL. Otherwise, NO.

If it's part of a tutorial. There is a difference.

If the wording of the mission is changed to indicate that I have to explore different solar systems to find the resource I want, that is perfectly in line with the game mechanics.

EDIT: If it was the intent of CPP to have rookies struggle to figure out basic things, there WOULD NOT BE tutorials.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-12-18 19:11:24 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
I got past the mining tutorial hurdle because I stuck to it. It took that bit of "stupid game mechanics" as far as a tutorial goes, to convince me to dig into the game with Google, and on forums like these and Eve University.

However, I am an older person who, I believe, has much more patience than the average gamer. How many potentially paying customers did not subscribe because they found the game mechanics to be stupid?

I'm not asking for a 100% safe zone. I'm not asking to take away your playstyle. All I'm asking for in instruction for those players that are truly rookies. How hard is it to even change the wording of the mission itself, to point out that it may be necessary to go to another solar system to find a non-empty asteroid belt? Is that so hard? Will it ruin the caliber of EVE player you claim should belong to EVE? Are you afraid of change, even something so minor? Or are you the type of person that feels it is necessary to perpetuate the suffering? You suffered, so everyone else must too?

Should Aura pop up to point out that all manufacturing slots are busy? Yes, if it's part of a tutorial.
Should Aura pop up to point out [whatever], YES, if it's part of a TUTORIAL. Otherwise, NO.

If it's part of a tutorial. There is a difference.

If the wording of the mission is changed to indicate that I have to explore different solar systems to find the resource I want, that is perfectly in line with the game mechanics.

EDIT: If it was the intent of CPP to have rookies struggle to figure out basic things, there WOULD NOT BE tutorials.


So you would rather be spoon fed?

I think after three years of EVE the Game still tells me now and again I need to do the TUT missions.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Kerrec Snowmane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-12-18 19:21:58 UTC
I've read the pirate thread in crime and punishment, so I have some respect for you Cannibal.

But is it too much to ask for the mission giver to include "you may have to go to other solar systems if asteroid belts in this system are empty."

I mean, that sentence alone implies that you have to explore to find resources, and it implies that asteroid belts CAN be empty. Things that fit just fine in a tutorial.

Am I really asking for too much? Is that being spoon fed?
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#24 - 2013-12-18 19:53:29 UTC
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. New Citizens Q&A is just not the appropriate place for this discussion.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-12-18 20:57:28 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
I got past the mining tutorial hurdle because I stuck to it. It took that bit of "stupid game mechanics" as far as a tutorial goes, to convince me to dig into the game with Google, and on forums like these and Eve University.

However, I am an older person who, I believe, has much more patience than the average gamer. How many potentially paying customers did not subscribe because they found the game mechanics to be stupid?

I'm not asking for a 100% safe zone. I'm not asking to take away your playstyle. All I'm asking for in instruction for those players that are truly rookies. How hard is it to even change the wording of the mission itself, to point out that it may be necessary to go to another solar system to find a non-empty asteroid belt? Is that so hard? Will it ruin the caliber of EVE player you claim should belong to EVE? Are you afraid of change, even something so minor? Or are you the type of person that feels it is necessary to perpetuate the suffering? You suffered, so everyone else must too?

Should Aura pop up to point out that all manufacturing slots are busy? Yes, if it's part of a tutorial.
Should Aura pop up to point out [whatever], YES, if it's part of a TUTORIAL. Otherwise, NO.

If it's part of a tutorial. There is a difference.

If the wording of the mission is changed to indicate that I have to explore different solar systems to find the resource I want, that is perfectly in line with the game mechanics.

EDIT: If it was the intent of CPP to have rookies struggle to figure out basic things, there WOULD NOT BE tutorials.


You do know that CCP doesn't want to target the general I-like-any-WoW-like-MMO players.

Their target audience is much smaller and they try to target the "older" gamers. The ones with patience and who don't mind doing a bit of reading to find out how mechanics work.

Hence why the impatient people leave...Because EVE isn't the game for them.

Much like I will never play WoW or any other fantasy, scripted from front to back MMO. Because I like a challenge and those games lack that.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-12-18 21:27:13 UTC
To be fair a lot of us who are training alts for various purposes (titan holders, super pilots etc) have our alts sitting in the newbie system and freely help out... I know I do, since she can't fly the avatar just yet i have her in a newbie system helping out and she doesn't have the stigma of being a pirate. Its funny how often lady has got.. you are a pirate i dont trust you.

I can see both sides of the argument.

Yes it is silly to strip mine the newbie systems in hulks and mackinaws. But at the same time, sandbox.

And eve isntabout the tutorial holding your hand, yes it is about teaching you. Could they add a little, if you dont see any asteroids try a different belt/system.. sure BUT as J'Poll said they cant have popups and info about everything in eve.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#27 - 2013-12-18 21:29:57 UTC
easy solution, make strip miners not work in 1.0 systems. Easy to implement too, and would hardly hurt anyone.

If rookies are warping to belts in their starting systems and finding no ore, thats a problem.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-12-18 22:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Batelle wrote:
easy solution, make strip miners not work in 1.0 systems. Easy to implement too, and would hardly hurt anyone.

If rookies are warping to belts in their starting systems and finding no ore, thats a problem.


Only issue. Most rookie systems are NOT 1.0


Don't get me wrong. Why would you strip mine a belt in rookie systems, when there are over 7000 other systems to mine in.
But the big part that makes EVE, EVE is the sandbox part. Putting restrictions on stuff is against the idea of a sandbox.

The tutorial actually makes you fly from the Aura system (where you get your ship and basic gun) to the career agents. So the new players do know how jumping systems work.

Maybe just add a bit of info about asteroid belts (they can be depleted, they respawn during downtime) to the tutorial pop ups you get now (or add it in the mission text). But no restrictions or annoying pop ups (even if they are just for new players).

But IMO the most powerful option is already there....the other 20.000 to 40.000 character that are logged in...

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#29 - 2013-12-18 22:36:30 UTC
I don't support banning strip mining from rookie systems, although I do support alternative measures. Having the tutorial mining missions send you to a deadspace pocket to mine mission-only ore isn't an unreasonable solution, but I think the idea I like best is to add a line to the mission text somewhere in red that states the useful info that asteroid belts can be depleted by mining them, that there may not be any in-system and that you will have to look somewhere else for one if this happens to be the case.

There is really no way you can expect a fresh newbie to have any idea of that, and pointing it out in the missions Aura assigns isn't really as hand-holdy as people want to think it is. There's a difference between EVE being difficult and EVE being unnecessarily stressful.
Good Apollo BS4
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-12-19 05:58:50 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I don't support banning strip mining from rookie systems, although I do support alternative measures. Having the tutorial mining missions send you to a deadspace pocket to mine mission-only ore isn't an unreasonable solution, but I think the idea I like best is to add a line to the mission text somewhere in red that states the useful info that asteroid belts can be depleted by mining them, that there may not be any in-system and that you will have to look somewhere else for one if this happens to be the case.

There is really no way you can expect a fresh newbie to have any idea of that, and pointing it out in the missions Aura assigns isn't really as hand-holdy as people want to think it is. There's a difference between EVE being difficult and EVE being unnecessarily stressful.


That would work, or other persons post on disabling strippers for .whatever ... But then what happens when person goes to .5 and can't find ore in belt? Same thing...

They google.

Or newbie corp or help chat.

:) or petition lol.

Don't think adding line of text would hurt to tutorial but there are so many things then... Click navigation, C to fix camera, there's tons of "did not know _______" threads and posts... Ccp would be fielding requests for so many things... Eve would never get quality updates and new ships etc balancing (((said deadpan)))
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#31 - 2013-12-19 08:27:32 UTC
The problem here is not strip miners. It is the archaic down time based asteroid respawn system.
Change All asteroid belts over to 3-5 respawning 'Asteroid Clusters' that work similar to the null sec industry anomalies, except obviously contain only appropriate materials for the system the same as the belts do.
This then solves the 'stripped out because the newbie logged on near downtime' issue, while also making the 'belts' more logical.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#32 - 2013-12-19 11:18:44 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane

[u wrote:
Because, in what game EVER, has a tutorial sent you to an area where the thing you need to find is not actually there?[/u] .


I've had it happen in plenty of games. Sad, but after it happens a few times you either adapt or leave. A lot of games will greatly increase the spawn rate of quest items to counter this, but in this case, it isn't just some newbie quest item that is useless elsewhere, the asteroids you mine are useful anywhere, so greatly increasing the spawn rate is a bad response.

Maybe a comment in the tutorial info window that people don't read anyway. Heck, even without it, resources get mined out in any game I've played, it should be something you already expect, not a surprise at all.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Luscius Uta
#33 - 2013-12-19 12:06:09 UTC
Batelle wrote:
easy solution, make strip miners not work in 1.0 systems. Easy to implement too, and would hardly hurt anyone.

If rookies are warping to belts in their starting systems and finding no ore, thats a problem.



Why not just reduce their yield based on system's security status? So they would be only 50% effective in 0.9 and 1.0 systems, maybe 60% in 0.8 and so on (so that they wouldn't be 100% effective in any of the highsec).
Of course, there will be people using Ventures to deplete belts, but since Venture has much lower bay than Retriever or Mackinaw, in reality it won't be much better.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Kate stark
#34 - 2013-12-19 12:26:53 UTC
in that case, i want guns banned in all systems lower than 1.0 so i don't have to worry about being shot at.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

Kerrec Snowmane
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-12-19 13:33:30 UTC
It's not about breaking your sandbox. No one is asking for 100% immunity as a rookie. I also don't advocate having the rookie areas have different rules, like strip mining not working.

What I want to see, is an Aura pop up (only once!) when you enter your first asteroid belt when you have the mining mission, that says, "If there are no asteroids left, you may have to go to another belt. You may also need to travel to another solar system to find asteroids to mine."

If that is too "hand holding", then at the very least, change the wording of the mission itself to INSTRUCT a rookie to the fact that asteroid belts may be depleted and it may be required to travel to other solar systems to find some. If a rookie doesn't read the mission, then it's their fault.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-12-19 17:35:49 UTC
-1, seriously, try a jumpgate... then mine over there.

I disagree

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#37 - 2013-12-19 18:40:47 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Batelle wrote:
easy solution, make strip miners not work in 1.0 systems. Easy to implement too, and would hardly hurt anyone.

If rookies are warping to belts in their starting systems and finding no ore, thats a problem.



Why not just reduce their yield based on system's security status? So they would be only 50% effective in 0.9 and 1.0 systems, maybe 60% in 0.8 and so on (so that they wouldn't be 100% effective in any of the highsec).
Of course, there will be people using Ventures to deplete belts, but since Venture has much lower bay than Retriever or Mackinaw, in reality it won't be much better.


Because that's a stupid idea you came up with to spite miners, not something aimed at keeping rookie systems usable.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-12-19 19:30:46 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
It's not about breaking your sandbox. No one is asking for 100% immunity as a rookie. I also don't advocate having the rookie areas have different rules, like strip mining not working.

What I want to see, is an Aura pop up (only once!) when you enter your first asteroid belt when you have the mining mission, that says, "If there are no asteroids left, you may have to go to another belt. You may also need to travel to another solar system to find asteroids to mine."

If that is too "hand holding", then at the very least, change the wording of the mission itself to INSTRUCT a rookie to the fact that asteroid belts may be depleted and it may be required to travel to other solar systems to find some. If a rookie doesn't read the mission, then it's their fault.


As you keep asking for your handholding pop ups....


I keep reminding you that EVE is a MMO.

MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online.

Play it with other people (even if that just means chatting with them) and you can find out 99.9% of the stuff because you just asked it.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#39 - 2013-12-19 21:16:01 UTC
I haven't read the whole thing - however, I would say ban STRIP miners in starter systems - you can even fly your fancy barge/exhumer there - just not activate the strips...... and/or newbies are always offered a mission belt in the noob system.....

my 2 cents

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#40 - 2013-12-19 21:32:12 UTC
Kerrec Snowmane wrote:
It's not about breaking your sandbox. No one is asking for 100% immunity as a rookie. I also don't advocate having the rookie areas have different rules, like strip mining not working.

What I want to see, is an Aura pop up (only once!) when you enter your first asteroid belt when you have the mining mission, that says, "If there are no asteroids left, you may have to go to another belt. You may also need to travel to another solar system to find asteroids to mine."

If that is too "hand holding", then at the very least, change the wording of the mission itself to INSTRUCT a rookie to the fact that asteroid belts may be depleted and it may be required to travel to other solar systems to find some. If a rookie doesn't read the mission, then it's their fault.


Popupz are the most annoying thing since the interwebz was created and you would want to add more of them? You simply cannot add a popup for every contingency that might occur in EVE. No one would read them cause there would be hundreds. That is why channels like rookie help have been created and as a new player you automatically land in that channel when you open the game. Hell, as an older player I cant even enter the channel to have a laugh or bust some balls, only dedicated help personnel are there to hold your hand and get even the most mentally challenged pilots through their trial.

You said earlier you only made it through because you are an older player with a lot of patience. Well, welcome, we are all older players with a ton of patience. Maybe you read that EVE has the highest average age of any MMO? Why? Because the game is demanding enough to attract that audience. The tutorial thus reflects well what the actual game is like and we like that it filters out the teenage scum that has ruined and dumbed down other games. And don't worry, those older players revert to their inner child so much so that it feels like you are being harassed by 12 year olds any way if you stick around long enough.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.

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