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Faction Warfare farming has to end - we want war instead of the Cloak & Stabs -game

First post First post
Author
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#321 - 2013-12-12 20:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
"New" pilot reporting in. (8 months old) I joined FW the day my three week trial account ended. I have been funding my PvP habits in FW from plexes and have bought PLEX for all of my subscription needs since I started playing.

I have funded my PvP habits in FW, I have paid for everything myself. Currently, I have 2bil ISK in hand, 3bil ISK in assets, and 3mil LP in storage. 3mil LP = 6bil ISK at the very minimum. At the rate I'm selling LP for now, 3mil LP = ~12bil ISK.

Money for PvP is NOT a problem. I can afford to lose multiple plexes a month due to being run out by a larger force and I would not be affected in the slightest. I even fight multiple people vs myself. Again, I am less than 8 months old.

I got my first solo kill when I was 2 months old. I've been getting solo kills regularly since then. I'm telling you this not to toot my own horn, but to say what a new player is capable off. You can win frigate fights solo with two months of SP.



This is all to prove the effectiveness of a newer pilot. Even newer pilots can hold their own against stronger NPCs or against stronger/older players.


Timer rollbacks would be a great addition to FW.
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2013-12-12 20:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghost Phius
Shakira Khalessi wrote:
I think the developers have a good handle on this thing.

There is way too much personal bias and you play the game the way I want you too type stuff in this proposal to be taken seriously by the devs. It is not like this exact kind of thread has not been brought up by the same small group of people before.

This is pure nonsense.



Yeah Taoist Dragon should be along any minute to place the quote he made in the other 10 threads like this that end up locked.

People play the game, stop trying to lord over how someone else plays and adapt. Your failure to adapt is built into the mix just like it is for the others that have adapted and are doing fine.

Having said that the tears here are delicious.Big smile
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#323 - 2013-12-12 20:16:38 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.


We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment.

Guess what: It is.

And more so after Inferno than before.



Don't think you will find many FW people in this thread that will say there isn't plenty of PvP to be had. That isn't our gripe.


Wrong. Statements ITT:

  • 4 out of 5 people I tried to fight were farmers.
  • FW is dominated by farmers.
  • FW is farmville.
  • FW is an "ISK printing machine".
  • FW is dying.
  • FW is unhealthy due to all the farming.
  • etcetc.
  • You should really pay more attention to what the people in your camp are saying. Then you won't look like a fool when you say "no one said x".


This thread:

  • A Condor warped out after getting tackled and/or cloaked when someone came up on scan.
  • Someone got MAD!
  • Out of a spirit of spitefulness, someone requests that CCP make changes to hurt the farmers.
  • They can't hurt the farmers themselves, and want to do it via proxy of CCP.
  • Weakly base their arguments on the premise that "farmers have too much power and make too much ISK".
  • Are unable to show that farmers have too much power or are even an issue beyond frustrating some PvPers.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#324 - 2013-12-12 20:27:32 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.


We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment.

Guess what: It is.

And more so after Inferno than before.



Don't think you will find many FW people in this thread that will say there isn't plenty of PvP to be had. That isn't our gripe.


Wrong. Statements ITT:

  • 4 out of 5 people I tried to fight were farmers.
  • FW is dominated by farmers.
  • FW is farmville.
  • FW is an "ISK printing machine".
  • FW is dying.
  • FW is unhealthy due to all the farming.
  • etcetc.
  • You should really pay more attention to what the people in your camp are saying. Then you won't look like a fool when you say "no one said x".


This thread:

  • A Condor warped out after getting tackled and/or cloaked when someone came up on scan.
  • Someone got MAD!
  • Out of a spirit of spitefulness, someone requests that CCP make changes to hurt the farmers.
  • They can't hurt the farmers themselves, and want to do it via proxy of CCP.
  • Weakly base their arguments on the premise that "farmers have too much power and make too much ISK".
  • Are unable to show that farmers have too much power or are even an issue beyond frustrating some PvPers.


Just because massive portions of FW are farmville doesn't mean there isn't plenty of PVP. All I would like to see is a slight reduction in the impact farmers have on Warzone control.

Are you currently active in FW?
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#325 - 2013-12-12 20:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
"New" pilot reporting in. (8 months old) I joined FW the day my three week trial account ended. I have been funding my PvP habits in FW from plexes and have bought PLEX for all of my subscription needs since I started playing.

I have funded my PvP habits in FW, I have paid for everything myself. Currently, I have 2bil ISK in hand, 3bil ISK in assets, and 3mil LP in storage. 3mil LP = 6bil ISK at the very minimum. At the rate I'm selling LP for now, 3mil LP = ~12bil ISK.

Money for PvP is NOT a problem. I can afford to lose multiple plexes a month due to being run out by a larger force and I would not be affected in the slightest. I even fight multiple people vs myself. Again, I am less than 8 months old.

I got my first solo kill when I was 2 months old. I've been getting solo kills regularly since then. I'm telling you this not to toot my own horn, but to say what a new player is capable off. You can win frigate fights solo with two months of SP.



This is all to prove the effectiveness of a newer pilot. Even newer pilots can hold their own against stronger NPCs or against stronger/older players.


Timer rollbacks would be a great addition to FW.


Dude, You are like a better version of me! I need to get you some dancers.

Seriously, Way too similar:
https://zkillboard.com/character/93102761/history/
https://zkillboard.com/character/93062508/history/
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#326 - 2013-12-12 20:30:05 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
All I would like to see is a slight reduction in the impact farmers have on Warzone control.


Then give some good reasons that aren't based on histrionics.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#327 - 2013-12-12 20:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
All I would like to see is a slight reduction in the impact farmers have on Warzone control.


Then give some good reasons that aren't based on histrionics.


It is harder to defend in FW than it is to be on offense in every system except home systems. I believe this is good and helps keep the wars active and "fresh". Having been active in FW in a corp that runs plexes offensively and defensively as well as PVPing like crazy I think the War Zone would be more interesting if the risk/reward weren't so heavily in favor of dirt cheap plexing ships that are designed to avoid direct ship to ship combat. I'm not looking for a massive change, just a minor one to help balance out the field a little bit.

Timer Rollbacks are by no means a massive change (unless it insta-flips the timer back to neutral, but I am not for that).
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#328 - 2013-12-12 20:41:18 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.


We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment.

Guess what: It is.

And more so after Inferno than before.



Don't think you will find many FW people in this thread that will say there isn't plenty of PvP to be had. That isn't our gripe.


Wrong. Statements ITT:

  • 4 out of 5 people I tried to fight were farmers.
  • FW is dominated by farmers.
  • FW is farmville.
  • FW is an "ISK printing machine".
  • FW is dying.
  • FW is unhealthy due to all the farming.
  • etcetc.
  • You should really pay more attention to what the people in your camp are saying. Then you won't look like a fool when you say "no one said x".


This thread:

  • A Condor warped out after getting tackled and/or cloaked when someone came up on scan.
  • Someone got MAD!
  • Out of a spirit of spitefulness, someone requests that CCP make changes to hurt the farmers.
  • They can't hurt the farmers themselves, and want to do it via proxy of CCP.
  • Weakly base their arguments on the premise that "farmers have too much power and make too much ISK".
  • Are unable to show that farmers have too much power or are even an issue beyond frustrating some PvPers.


I must say the thick headedness is interesting to observe.

You still refuse to acknowledge the root issue we are talking about and instead want to spout off on the after effects of the root cause.

Let me try this another way:

PvP is not lacking in FW. No one ever said that, you have assumed that.

The main issue we are talking about is: The large impact that "farmers" are having on FW WZ control

Why is this an issue: Because our ability to enjoy the game we like (or used to like in some cases) and the aspect that we as a group like most about it (FW) is directly affected by those who have no interest in that aspect other than abusing the risk/reward ratio to isk gain. We all want a healthy FW aspect of Eve and blowing up ships is just one part of it.

Back to the Root cause of our issue: The risk/reward for "farming" and the impact is has on WZ control is creating an imbalance between factions that if persists will be to the detriment of the FW aspect of Eve.


Your counter points do nothing to address the imbalance of risk vs. reward and the resulting outsized impact of WZ control that imbalanced risk vs. reward has created and will continue to create.


You are creating and focusing on things that are the results of the root cause instead of addressing the root cause of our concern.

All we are asking for a relatively small adjustment in FW plex mechanics that begin to address the imbalanced risk vs. reward of farming FW solely for the purpose of making isk.

The only folks impacted by this are the pure isk farmers and even then it would at most be a minor inconvenience.
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#329 - 2013-12-12 20:43:02 UTC
Burtakus wrote:

Last I looked in the history books no entity ever lost control of their territories due to being out farmed.


So your argument is based on the semantics used in game to characterize activities as "farming," and comparing that to real-world crop harvesting? The actions do not equate; regardless of how they are fit, these "farmers" are flying war machines on a battlefield, not riding tractors on the back 40 plowing fields. If they were taking over FW space by mining asteroids, you analogy would be closer to the mark, but that's not what's going on, now is it?

Consider this: there have been many conflicts which have been either decided or at least influenced by the actions of mercenaries and/or war profiteers. The activities of FW "farmers" are much more akin to this; in both cases, these individuals are not engaging in the war out of any sense of patriotism or defending their people, but are simply out to make money through war. It's been a constant part of war throughout history; why does it not have a place in FW?

Also, your statement when applied to literal farming is still incorrect. There have in fact been instances in history where one country has lost land due to a massive influx of settlers who come across their border and begin establishing farms and settlements, all the while remaining loyal to their home nation. If the invaded country does nothing to remove these groups, the land becomes a de facto part of the territory of the settlers' country. This is a frequent occurence throughout history along disputed borders, basically "if you can farm it, it's yours (until the other guy kicks you out)," which is exactly what you are complaining about in FW.

If you think it's bad for the game, then by all means present your argument; but don't try using history to dispute it as being unrealistic!
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#330 - 2013-12-12 20:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Janden Rynd wrote:
Burtakus wrote:

Last I looked in the history books no entity ever lost control of their territories due to being out farmed.


.. If they were taking over FW space by mining asteroids, you analogy would be closer to the mark, but that's not what's going on, now is it?



Stabbed mining ships (ventures) sitting still in a plex is basically that (except no minerals are extracted, just lp and control of the system).
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#331 - 2013-12-12 20:51:57 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Janden Rynd wrote:
Burtakus wrote:

Last I looked in the history books no entity ever lost control of their territories due to being out farmed.


.. If they were taking over FW space by mining asteroids, you analogy would be closer to the mark, but that's not what's going on, now is it?



Stabbed mining ships (ventures) sitting still in a plex is basically that (except no minerals are extracted, just lp and control of the system).



Even so, as the rest of my post points out, occupying and utilizing land is a historically valid tactic for taking control of territory.

It's not how I want to spend my time in game, and I'll leave aside the argument of whether it is good or bad for the game state, but my point was about whether such tactics existed in history.
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#332 - 2013-12-12 20:55:37 UTC
I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.

If that is the case then acknowledging the imbalance this creates and altering it is of no use since it does not impact them except when they need to switch their farming alt to another faction when the tiers change.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#333 - 2013-12-12 20:58:41 UTC
Starbuck05 wrote:
Just to tell a little story myself relative to the matter, earlier today i opened up a medium plex in nenna,me beeing cal mil it was offensive plexing. For all the right reasons of fw i was hoping to get a good fight but if none came i was happy to get the lp. In the course of 15 out of the 20 minutes i was visited frequently by 3 other cal mil guys from the npc miltia corp in t1 frigs. Around 3 mins left on the plex they suddenly left , i was not looking at d-scan, only to see seconds later a gal mil punisher and fed navy comet came in(i was in a comet aswell) and because i wasnt watching d-scan i got tackled,somehow i managed to pull a win by fending of the comet and close orbit kiling the punisher after. And quickly after that my 3 " buddies" came back right before plex was done... Yey for pro cal mil ( leachers )...

Conclusion, because the curent plex mechanics is so bad it has given birth to these types of players ( whom i can easly assume they had stabs ). God knows if the standing hit was not affecting my corp from beeing booted and looking bad id be shooting npc miltia blues all day long because that is what they deserve!

You wanna join fw to make isk?,fine by me but go run missions damnit.
You wanna join fw to make isk BUT also care to defend your plex or help take systems? Great! Lemme throw out the red carpet you ar more then welcomed to share my plex!

We need a change!


This is very common at the minute, I lost my standings for running fw missions over shooting at those guys, I know of at least 20 players and thats all they do. Stabs and cloaks are not the only way to do it, all you need is a safe spot and an atron, just warp in look at the timers warp out sit in safe spot while the other poor sap runs down the timer, then come back at the last few seconds for LP. I would rather see a neutral come into the plex than another caldari guy because if you awox your militia bro you lose standings and probably the guy will be able to warp off anyway. Even If you do manage to kill him he made more isk from the LP he stole off you than he lost in his ship. I really do hate that and there seems no way to stamp it out, not even these changes.

I've started moving outside the 30km area to stop the clock for a couple of minutes when I see someone try it, that way when he comes back you still have a few minutes to kill him before he can take your lp, no way around the standings loss though Blink
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#334 - 2013-12-12 21:11:25 UTC
Janden Rynd wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Janden Rynd wrote:
Burtakus wrote:

Last I looked in the history books no entity ever lost control of their territories due to being out farmed.


.. If they were taking over FW space by mining asteroids, you analogy would be closer to the mark, but that's not what's going on, now is it?



Stabbed mining ships (ventures) sitting still in a plex is basically that (except no minerals are extracted, just lp and control of the system).



Even so, as the rest of my post points out, occupying and utilizing land is a historically valid tactic for taking control of territory.

It's not how I want to spend my time in game, and I'll leave aside the argument of whether it is good or bad for the game state, but my point was about whether such tactics existed in history.


I concur that occupying land is a means to take over territory and I am sure there are examples in RL histroy where that has happened. That was probably an over dramatic statement on my part.
Daquaris
Aegis Victorium
The Initiative.
#335 - 2013-12-12 21:22:21 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Dread Delgarth wrote:
Or you pick up a combat ship on d-scan, warp to the gate and suddenly the ship disappears off your radar - he cloaked as soon as he picked your ship up on short range.


Hm you're right.

I think they should also disable warp drives inside of plexes, cuz targets might warp out, too. That is clearly OP and "depressing". Warp drives should be disabled within 100km of the button until the site is completed.


Should probably disable prop mods inside the plexes too - within 100km. Because people getting away is clearly OP and depressing.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#336 - 2013-12-12 21:29:30 UTC
Ignore all the prop mod, warp bubble stuff. Just implement timer rollbacks for now.
Dread Delgarth
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#337 - 2013-12-12 21:40:25 UTC
Burtakus wrote:
I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.

If that is the case then acknowledging the imbalance this creates and altering it is of no use since it does not impact them except when they need to switch their farming alt to another faction when the tiers change.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


Yeah I noticed that too. Funny how current pilots in FW Corps from all factions want timer roll backs, the only people arguing to keep the status quo aren't even in FW.
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#338 - 2013-12-12 21:44:58 UTC
Dread Delgarth wrote:
Burtakus wrote:
I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.

If that is the case then acknowledging the imbalance this creates and altering it is of no use since it does not impact them except when they need to switch their farming alt to another faction when the tiers change.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


Yeah I noticed that too. Funny how current pilots in FW Corps from all factions want timer roll backs, the only people arguing to keep the status quo aren't even in FW.


They are probably in FW in some alt form or another.
Hikaru Inumakari
Hikaru's Dozen
#339 - 2013-12-12 21:46:23 UTC
Well i have not been much for FW till recently and have lead my corp into it. After roughly a week i can understand the farming aspect of things, i think TIMER rollbacks should be implented.

The only other thing i believe should be implented ust for FW plexes is the fact that ONLY FW militia should be able to enter them....no nuetral parties should be allowed.

Sure they can camp and blob the gates, or belts or what not......but every single outpost site and FW mission ite should be regulated to FW Milita pilots only. Then you can keep all the other stuff since only FW pilots will be fighting mostly over the things they should be fighting over.

Such implentation would prevent persons that are not militia from ganging groups that are focused in actually playing the FW aspect.....defending or attacking outposts so they can dontae LP to the hubs for system control. Not having to worry if high end alts or mains are going to jump them for no reason at all but to pad their KB's.

Then if you want in the damn outpost sites then you will have to join FW.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#340 - 2013-12-12 21:54:44 UTC
Hikaru Inumakari wrote:
Well i have not been much for FW till recently and have lead my corp into it. After roughly a week i can understand the farming aspect of things, i think TIMER rollbacks should be implented.

The only other thing i believe should be implented ust for FW plexes is the fact that ONLY FW militia should be able to enter them....no nuetral parties should be allowed.

Sure they can camp and blob the gates, or belts or what not......but every single outpost site and FW mission ite should be regulated to FW Milita pilots only. Then you can keep all the other stuff since only FW pilots will be fighting mostly over the things they should be fighting over.

Such implentation would prevent persons that are not militia from ganging groups that are focused in actually playing the FW aspect.....defending or attacking outposts so they can dontae LP to the hubs for system control. Not having to worry if high end alts or mains are going to jump them for no reason at all but to pad their KB's.

Then if you want in the damn outpost sites then you will have to join FW.


I disagree. Letting them into the plex makes for much better Pew. Just have the rats attack them as well and give em a suspect timer when they activate the gate.