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Faction Warfare farming has to end - we want war instead of the Cloak & Stabs -game

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#301 - 2013-12-12 09:29:36 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Disagree. They care very much, they (null interests) were after all instrumental in convincing CCP to create FarmVille so they could have a secondary revenue stream that is not affected by evil people nicking their null-space .

I heard TEST is back with their fw money and ready to join a coalition that exists to destroy the cfc

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lugalbandak
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#302 - 2013-12-12 13:12:29 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Disagree. They care very much, they (null interests) were after all instrumental in convincing CCP to create FarmVille so they could have a secondary revenue stream that is not affected by evil people nicking their null-space .

I heard TEST is back with their fw money and ready to join a coalition that exists to destroy the cfc


are you guys getting destroyed already or does harry do all the work?

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Amber Kurvora
#303 - 2013-12-12 13:39:40 UTC
Rainbow Dash wrote:
L4s at T3/4 are surprisingly bad isk/hr, because everyone else is busy crashing the LP price. Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr


Oh, no...who would settle at 400m an hour? I'd have to work at least three hours to earn a Machariel. possibly 5-6 hours to faction fit it. Oh, the shame of it!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#304 - 2013-12-12 15:09:55 UTC
Lugalbandak wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Disagree. They care very much, they (null interests) were after all instrumental in convincing CCP to create FarmVille so they could have a secondary revenue stream that is not affected by evil people nicking their null-space .

I heard TEST is back with their fw money and ready to join a coalition that exists to destroy the cfc

are you guys getting destroyed already or does harry do all the work?

Harry seems to avoid the system I live in for some reason so I haven't gotten any updates from the source of vfk

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2013-12-12 15:14:59 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Disagree. They care very much, they (null interests) were after all instrumental in convincing CCP to create FarmVille so they could have a secondary revenue stream that is not affected by evil people nicking their null-space .

I heard TEST is back with their fw money and ready to join a coalition that exists to destroy the cfc



Either that or they will end up moving into Fountain core with the rest of the tards.Roll Should be pretty amusing with 2000 nerds already crapping up the constellation.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#306 - 2013-12-12 15:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Rainbow Dash wrote:
L4s at T3/4 are surprisingly bad isk/hr, because everyone else is busy crashing the LP price. Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr


Oh, no...who would settle at 400m an hour? I'd have to work at least three hours to earn a Machariel. possibly 5-6 hours to faction fit it. Oh, the shame of it!


Mach hull is 794 mil in jita right this moment. Buying a mach hull is literally 2 hours of FW lvl 4s in a stealth bomber at tier 3.....
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#307 - 2013-12-12 15:56:50 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Your noob-ness shows. We have been "whining" since day one, that is five years ago not two. Of course to begin with it was considered, accepted and read as feedback to development.


Your lack of context comprehension shows. We're obviously talking about an issue that didn't exist before Inferno. The issues that FWbears are QQcatting about today are different from the issues FWbears were QQcatting about 4 years ago.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Your points have been countered, weighed, shelved etc. consistently, you just have that very annoying "selective reading/comprehension" attribute that in short order gets you nothing more than shrugs and sighs whenever you open your mouth.


ProTip: Calling someone a troll is not "countering" their points. My points haven't been weighed, they've been ignored - because they're too tough to deal with. So people would rather call me a "troll" because, didn't you know, on the Internetz if someone doesn't agree with you rank and file, they're obviously a troll.

The changes to FW made it relevant. Before FW was an archaic, ancient game feature that people never really spoke about, except for the people in FW and some lore junkies. Now, FW is a thriving part of the game that has (at least some) relevance even to NullSec entities and HiSec markets. The change to FW that made it relevant was the ability to make a living at it. Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal - aeb killboards which have increased since Inferno, and no, "80%" of the kills are not cloaky farming frigates, they're other PvP boats.

FW is not "PvP only", aeb the plexing mechanic and the presence of missions. All comments that FW is "for PvP only" are incorrect, misguided, and based only on the proponent's feeling of what they want FW to be or what they think it should be.

Large numbers of low SP characters in disposable ships effecting change on the game? Working as intended.

If you're gonna complain about income risk/reward, complain about people in SBs farming missions.

If you're gonna complain about WZ control - then go influence it.

A lot of people complaining about something doesn't necessitate that there is actually a problem that needs to be solved. See: HiSec ganking. In fact everything that's being complained about ITT has an in-game solution if only, if only if only if only, people were willing to do it. But they're not, so "help me CCP, you're my only hope."

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Disagree. They care very much, they (null interests) were after all instrumental in convincing CCP to create FarmVille so they could have a secondary revenue stream that is not affected by evil people nicking their null-space .. they even managed to convince CCP to forego pretty much all restrictions on alliances joining just to prove the former accusation/statement.


Wow, tinfoil.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#308 - 2013-12-12 17:13:46 UTC
Implement timer rollbacks please.

JUSTK is recruiting
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#309 - 2013-12-12 17:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Burtakus
Xuixien wrote:
[quote=Veshta Yoshida]

Your lack of context comprehension shows. We're obviously talking about an issue that didn't exist before Inferno. The issues that FWbears are QQcatting about today are different from the issues FWbears were QQcatting about 4 years ago.

Different does not mean invalid.


ProTip: Calling someone a troll is not "countering" their points. My points haven't been weighed, they've been ignored - because they're too tough to deal with. So people would rather call me a "troll" because, didn't you know, on the Internetz if someone doesn't agree with you rank and file, they're obviously a troll.


  • Pro Tip #2: Acting like a troll and being antagonistic from the beginning gets you labeled as a troll. Your counter points have merit but they get lost in your inflammatory banter which rightly or wrongly makes you appear as trolling.


The changes to FW made it relevant. Before FW was an archaic, ancient game feature that people never really spoke about, except for the people in FW and some lore junkies. Now, FW is a thriving part of the game that has (at least some) relevance even to NullSec entities and HiSec markets. The change to FW that made it relevant was the ability to make a living at it. Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal - aeb killboards which have increased since Inferno, and no, "80%" of the kills are not cloaky farming frigates, they're other PvP boats.

Yes, 80% (which is an assumption) are PvP boats since you are not catching the cloaky stabbed farmers.


  • FW is a thriving part of the game and I am glad for that. I want it to continue to remain a thriving part of the game not become a risk free isk farm for those who have no interest in FW besides making isk.


    • I agree that making a living in FW is one thing that had a significant impact in its relevance. But making a living for who? Those that actively participate in FW as warfare was intended to be of for farmers who have an outzised impact on the warzone control and a out of balance risk/reward ratio that are abusing FW LP mechanics to fund activities that have nothing to do with FW.



    • Those that exist to farm LP are a large % of the participants in FW. If you think otherwise just watch the pilot statistics as one faction or the other moves up and down in tiers. You can also check pilots in local and you will start to see that many of them are several days to several weeks old once the farm cycle reverse course they are gone. If they are older many of them have switched faction several times in their employment history to be on the side that best for farming activities solely to make isk. This takes several months to observe but it called the farming cycle for those of use that have been in FW long enough to witness a couple of these.



FW is not "PvP only", aeb the plexing mechanic and the presence of missions. All comments that FW is "for PvP only" are incorrect, misguided, and based only on the proponent's feeling of what they want FW to be or what they think it should be.


  • I agree that FW is a mixture of PvP and PvE. No problems there. Combat Anomalies as FW plex's are termed and which are the means to gain system/wz control should in my opinion be either strictly combat focused or changed so that PvE activities of the farmeres do not have the large influence they currently do for extremely low risk and high rewards.


Large numbers of low SP characters in disposable ships effecting change on the game? Working as intended.


  • I agree 100% that large numbers of low SP characters in disposable ships can and should have an impact on the WZ. Losing or gaining WZ control should not however be influenced to the degree that is by the farmers. Last I looked in the history books no entity ever lost control of their territories due to being out farmed.


If you're gonna complain about income risk/reward, complain about people in SBs farming missions.


  • Can't really complain about this since it has no impact on WZ control and is in my opinion the mechanism that should be used for acquiring LP to fund other FW activities. From my perspective let these guys farm all they want.


If you're gonna complain about WZ control - then go influence it.


  • We do on a daily basis. We would just prefer that warfare, not zero risk high reward farming, be the driving factor influencing the war zone.


A lot of people complaining about something doesn't necessitate that there is actually a problem that needs to be solved. See: HiSec ganking. In fact everything that's being complained about ITT has an in-game solution if only, if only if only if only, people were willing to do it. But they're not, so "help me CCP, you're my only hope."


  • I agree with this point. This thread was not about complaining. The people posting in here, certain ones more than others, have tried their best to characterize it as that when it is not thereby reinforcing the trolling remarks.



Wow, tinfoil.


  • I must say that your dismissal of that notion is either protecting your interest or wildly naive
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#310 - 2013-12-12 17:42:33 UTC

  • Nothing in EVE is risk free. Nothing. There is inherent risk every time you undock, period.
  • Any PvE activity is farmable. Some PvP activities are farmable (le gatekamppz)
  • While I listen to you talk about how prolific the farmers are, I would like you to consider a concept known as "availability heuristic".
  • Your argument that you want WZ control to be determined by "warfare" is ambiguous at best and elitism at worse. Please define "warfare", because in FW's current state, a person farming LP is in fact being paid by one of the factions to engage in acts of war (capturing plexes) against the opposing faction.
  • Dismissing a conspiracy theory (which has no proof to back it up) does not show a "vested interested". Put the tinfoil away.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Rabugento
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2013-12-12 18:02:02 UTC
Xuixien wrote:

[stuff]

... Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal...

[more stuff]


o/

Without getting into the hot topics of "Should FW be changed?" and "Are the ideas in this thread good?", I would like to know what kind of evidence you have to support what I quoted.
Although you're completely within your right to have and spread your opinion about FW, biased or not, the assertive tone on your post got me quite curious. Is it just your opinion or is it based on some extensive research or KB digging?

The reason I ask is that, if you're indeed right about this, we - the people who think farming is a problem in FW - might have to go back to square one and come up with a different approach to deal with our perceived problem.

Thanks!
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#312 - 2013-12-12 18:19:35 UTC
This is wrong...so wrong in fact it's laughable. Assuming things like this is why your points are considered irrelevant at best. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and now inventing stuff to validate said arguments.

Xuixien wrote:

[stuff]

... Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal...

[more stuff]

nom nom
Burtakus
Lone W0lf Society
#313 - 2013-12-12 18:25:17 UTC
Xuixien wrote:


  • Nothing in EVE is risk free. Nothing. There is inherent risk every time you undock, period.


Agreed, just need to balance risk for reward otherwise what is the meaning of risk?

Perhaps this is one of the main sticking points in the argument. Those who desire significant rewards for little to no risk versus those who feel that type of environment is unhealthy for FW and Eve as a whole.

Xuixien wrote:

  • Any PvE activity is farmable. Some PvP activities are farmable (le gatekamppz)


    • Farming is not the issue, its the low risk and low investment compared to the high reward and high impact that this activity has.

    Right now many are of the opinion this is an outcome of the current FW mechanics that is being abused. To balance out that equation either the low risk high reward of the low risk high impact side needs to be adjusted. If you read through the posts and the potential solutions proposed, none of them propose doing away with farming. All they are proposing is to begin to balance the risk vs reward and risk versus impact equation.
    [/quote]

    Xuixien wrote:

  • While I listen to you talk about how prolific the farmers are, I would like you to consider a concept known as "availability heuristic".


    • Instead of using a phrase to make yourself sound intelligent while using it as a slight to me you should perhaps try to understand the issue at hand and what it's consequences mean for the health of FW.

    And yes, I am familiar with the concept of availability heuristic.

    If you truly believe farmers are not abusing the FW mechanics to generate significant rewards via LP/isk with little risk and investment on their behalf while having an outsized and negative impact on the health of FW then we will have to agree to disagree.


    Xuixien wrote:

  • Your argument that you want WZ control to be determined by "warfare" is ambiguous at best and elitism at worse. Please define "warfare", because in FW's current state, a person farming LP is in fact being paid by one of the factions to engage in acts of war (capturing plexes) against the opposing faction.


    • The issues at hand has nothing to do with elitism and implying that is does only detracts from the point at hand while providing zero value to the discussion.

    Yes, a person farming is being paid by the other faction to capture plex's. This issue at hand is not the act of farming, it is that this farmer is receiving significant compensation from the other faction with nearly zero risk to themselves while having a very large influence on WZ control. This incentive has created an environment where FW is devolving into a printing press for those who have no interest in FW other than fattening their wallets.

    If CCP desires FW to be dominated by farming activities and use it as a mechanism to transfer isk through the game then so be it. If that is the case then just call it what is and be done with it.

    Xuixien wrote:

  • Dismissing a conspiracy theory (which has no proof to back it up) does not show a "vested interested". Put the tinfoil away.



    • Then we can call it being naive.
    Xuixien
    Solar Winds Security Solutions
    #314 - 2013-12-12 18:27:19 UTC
    Rabugento wrote:
    Without getting into the hot topics of "Should FW be changed?" and "Are the ideas in this thread good?", I would like to know what kind of evidence you have to support what I quoted.


    Look at FW corp killboards, or killboards from pilots who have been in FW for years. Post-Inferno, their number of kills and losses increases. And the majority of those kills and losses are PvP, not killing farmers. There are more PvPers in FW - primarily because it's easier to fund that PvP. People who want an "all PvP utopia" in FW don't understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch - the ISK for those ships has to come from somewhere. And it comes from an activity that is economically healthy for EVE Online.

    When I was in FW most of the players I flew with farmed LP to fund ships/PLEX - and most of them did it on an alt, because doing it on their main would quickly get them labeled a "farmer", and thus blacklisted and AWOX'd by pilots in their faction. So, in part, the "proliferation of farming alts" is a direct consequence of people QQcatting and disparaging farmers. Most of the people who whined about farmers were older, "established" players who had secured income via other means - T2 invention farms, JF trading, gaming SOMER Bink, cap production, etcetc. (Apparently it's okay to engage in non-FW activities, such as JF trading in NullSec or T2 invention in HiSec in order to fund FW PvP, but it's not okay to farm FW LP to fund FW PvP or, GOD FORBID, to farm FW LP in order to fund other activities in EVE.)

    I myself used to spend downtime farming LP, which I used to fund the PvP boats I would then take out in fleets. But after a while, fellow militia started shooting me down and I got tired of hearing about "udirtyfarmer! udontcareaboutthewareffort!" so I created an alt to farm my LP. (Then I got to hear the same people complain that I wasn't doing anything to help "system control" cuz all I was doing was PvPing on Xui - lawwdy lawd. Roll). I agree that, pre-Goon nerf, FW LP was just ridiculous. A weekend of farming, and you could cash out billions of ISK during T5. Luckily CCP stepped in and fixed it - and what we have now is, in my opinion, very reasonable.

    Anyway. I spoke to a LOT of people when I was in FW. PvP mains and, instead of shitting on them, the "farming alts". Most of the alts I spoke to, while unwilling to reveal their mains, were in fact farming to fund their PvP main which was in a corp hostile to farming. Most FW corps are in fact hostile to farming. But the dirty secret is that most of the "farming alts" are in fact alts of people who are in those corps and aren't really allowed to make money. It all boils back down to the "PvPers looking down their nose at carebears" - meanwhile every PvPer's dirty secret is that they have carebear alts to make them money.

    In my estimation, very few people who farm LP are in it just to get ISK for "something else". They're in it to fund PLEX for their account and PvP boats.

    Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
    Xuixien
    Solar Winds Security Solutions
    #315 - 2013-12-12 18:28:06 UTC
    Princess Nexxala wrote:
    This is wrong...so wrong in fact it's laughable. Assuming things like this is why your points are considered irrelevant at best. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and now inventing stuff to validate said arguments.

    Xuixien wrote:

    [stuff]

    ... Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal...

    [more stuff]



    Sure. Whatever you say, dear.

    Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
    Xuixien
    Solar Winds Security Solutions
    #316 - 2013-12-12 18:37:19 UTC
    Burtakus wrote:
    Quote.



    • I hardly consider 40-50 million ISK/hr "significant rewards".
    • FW is healthy as the killboards and constant flipping of systems shows.
    • Farmers contest systems and then you get fights on iHubs. Working as intended.
    • Rollbacks would in fact nerf farming heavily - losing all the time you invest in a plex just because 3 people jumped you and chased you out would make farming untenable. You might think this is a good thing (yeah get rid of those dirty farmers!) until your faction has low system control and there's no one to o-plex.
    • I was not trying to "sound intelligent" or "slight you" - don't be so sensitive. You really would do well to read a bit about "availability heuristic". A lot of the "omg all these farmer!" comments seem to be the result of it.
    • "Agreeing to disagree" is an intellectual cop out.
    • A question for you - Why should plexers not have such an influence on WZ control? I keep hearing that word "should" a lot, but the reasons to back it up... are flimsy at best.
    • Again, FW is not an ISK printer - it's an ISK sink. And an economically healthy one at that.
    • FW is not "dominated by farming activities".
    • Farming in FW declined after the Great Goon Nerf.
    • "If you don't agree with a conspiracy theory then you are just naive!" is a baseless garbage argument.

    Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
    Burtakus
    Lone W0lf Society
    #317 - 2013-12-12 18:53:00 UTC
    Xuixien wrote:
    Burtakus wrote:
    Quote.



    • I hardly consider 40-50 million ISK/hr "significant rewards".
    • FW is healthy as the killboards and constant flipping of systems shows.
    • Farmers contest systems and then you get fights on iHubs. Working as intended.
    • Rollbacks would in fact nerf farming heavily - losing all the time you invest in a plex just because 3 people jumped you and chased you out would make farming untenable. You might think this is a good thing (yeah get rid of those dirty farmers!) until your faction has low system control and there's no one to o-plex.
    • I was not trying to "sound intelligent" or "slight you" - don't be so sensitive. You really would do well to read a bit about "availability heuristic". A lot of the "omg all these farmer!" comments seem to be the result of it.
    • "Agreeing to disagree" is an intellectual cop out.
    • A question for you - Why should plexers not have such an influence on WZ control? I keep hearing that word "should" a lot, but the reasons to back it up... are flimsy at best.
    • Again, FW is not an ISK printer - it's an ISK sink. And an economically healthy one at that.
    • FW is not "dominated by farming activities".
    • Farming in FW declined after the Great Goon Nerf.
    • "If you don't agree with a conspiracy theory then you are just naive!" is a baseless garbage argument.



    Do you actively participate in FW?

    If so for how long and if not how long has it been?
    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    #318 - 2013-12-12 19:43:33 UTC
    Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.
    WZ control does matter if you are in FW.

    Those that Farm FW plexes for LP would be slightly impacted by timer rollbacks, those that farm plexes in ships incapable of combat would be impacted more.

    JUSTK is recruiting
    Xuixien
    Solar Winds Security Solutions
    #319 - 2013-12-12 20:01:15 UTC
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:
    Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.


    We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment.

    Guess what: It is.

    And more so after Inferno than before.

    Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
    Thanatos Marathon
    Moira.
    #320 - 2013-12-12 20:07:35 UTC
    Xuixien wrote:
    Thanatos Marathon wrote:
    Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.


    We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment.

    Guess what: It is.

    And more so after Inferno than before.



    Don't think you will find many FW people in this thread that will say there isn't plenty of PvP to be had. That isn't our gripe.

    JUSTK is recruiting