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Star Citizen v EVE

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Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#761 - 2013-12-06 00:29:09 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unfortunately for the Eve Dev team the reason SC is not exactly like Eve is because SC is going to have a bunch of the things Eve lacks.

I would love a viable smuggling system in Eve. The smuggling in FL was great. The proposed smuggling system in Eve is great but never going to happen.

The proposed WiS system in Eve is great, the currnt implementation in Eve is zilch, WiS in SC will be a reality from day one. It will be better than what we have regardless.

The player input in Eve is so so. It's controlled by a popular vote system. I've never seen it work out well for anything but null blobs until this current expansion, which they could have just asked as about. The player community in freelancer is absolutely the best in the world bar none, and SC will be incorporating that current model into the game, but with their own Dev team as well.

The only aspect Eve is going to have that SC, or any other game doesn't have is that it is the biggest single shard MMO.

So its really like comparing a bushel of apples to one big ass orange.


At this point, it is pretty moot to argue what Star Citizen will and will not have yet because Star Citizen is far from a finished product and many of its proposed (and promised) features might be scrapped entirely because of one reason or another, like technical reasons.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#762 - 2013-12-06 00:39:46 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unfortunately for the Eve Dev team the reason SC is not exactly like Eve is because SC is going to have a bunch of the things Eve lacks.
Anything worth having?

Even ignoring the issue of SC being nothing but hopes and dreams for now, even if everything you just listed actually materialises, there's still the issue of "so what?".

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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#763 - 2013-12-06 03:47:15 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Unfortunately for the Eve Dev team the reason SC is not exactly like Eve is because SC is going to have a bunch of the things Eve lacks.
Anything worth having?

Even ignoring the issue of SC being nothing but hopes and dreams for now, even if everything you just listed actually materialises, there's still the issue of "so what?".


Only you can answer that question for yourself.

The more people that answer the question "yes", the bigger of a problem it becomes.

Quote:
At this point, it is pretty moot to argue what Star Citizen will and will not have yet because Star Citizen is far from a finished product and many of its proposed (and promised) features might be scrapped entirely because of one reason or another, like technical reasons.


Video killed the radio star.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Frying Doom
#764 - 2013-12-06 04:59:35 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
It's true, this could turn out to be another game which promises to be among the greatest games ever and actually delivers on those promises, just like .... and .... .

well to fill in the blanks, the first two that come to mind are Elite and Wing Commander.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#765 - 2013-12-06 08:07:01 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
The problem I see is that you're already arguing about stealth mechanics in a game not even in alpha.

Let's take things in steps. When Eve was first released in beta it was "bare bones" compared to now. There weren't even battleships in the game. No d-scan. Definitely no cloaks.

There were and have been huge holes in Eve. And CCP has made promises and not been able to deliver either. One must have a rational mind to understand the differences between wants and the ability to fulfill those wants.

There are so many levels of limitation the game needs to address that will make things very hard to deliver as promised and the vast majority of SC backers are well aware of this. The cry3 instance engine has many conflicts with CIG's vision of a persistent universe. There's even a recent youtube video on the limitations and a few proposals to address it.

I'll be the last person to think this will be some super-awesome perfect game. Only time will tell.

I'm hopeful, but not foolhardy. I'll be critical of the game, but trashing a concept in the works especially one that has an insane amount of funding behind it is quite a stretch.



No, I'm not, I'm using them to point out that unlike in EVE - where this stuff came from iteration, over long time as you've stated - there are promises from the get-go to include all sorts of crap without solid mechanics to back them up.

Cipher Jones wrote:
The only aspect Eve is going to have that SC, or any other game doesn't have is that it is the biggest single shard MMO.


If anything, SC will be a step back from what CCP achieved over the years. EVE built an actual economy and its combat mechanics allow for fighting someone one-on-one to battles of thousands. With no artificial limits in place to make fights "Fair" and asset losses being permanent it also features probably the most fun PvP.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#766 - 2013-12-06 09:38:42 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:


I'm hopeful, but not foolhardy. I'll be critical of the game, but trashing a concept in the works especially one that has an insane amount of funding behind it is quite a stretch.



I think most of the art and design in Star Citizen looks like absolute ****. And it is a damn that none of the insane amount of funding meant hiring people that has experience of designing something that looks like something that could actually work in space warfare.

In the other corner, you have David Braben's Elite Dangerous, with far more meager resources, which delivers.


Point 1: no game has ever atempted to depict realistic space warfare for the very simple reason that it would make an awful game.

Point 2: that you don't like SC art should not be a new. Anyway, they're functional starships with discrete elements and a damage model designed according to the school of "function makes the shape". I wonder what makes you think that they would not work in space warfare...

Point 3: EVE ships are designed purely for aesthetics without any pretense of functionality, and their damage model consists of three lifebars. But I can't recall you criticizing EVE's pretty flying nonsenses... maybe because they're pretty?


1. Wrong. Because we, as a species, have yet to experience space warfare. But I know for a fact that spaceships designed for space combat wouldn't benefit from having wings unlike a airplane that clings to a planet's atmosphere.

2. Simple. If they are "functional" star ships with the damage model you describe, then all I need is to aim at your external weapons (missiles mounted on wings, etc) to turn you into a cloud of fire. Something else that springs to mind is microscopic debris that can do a lot more than just rupture a missile sitting on your wing.

3. Never said that I love EVE's art style. Some of it is good, some of it not so good.


So it all summarizes as "I don't know what I am talking, so SC ships only have external missile mounts, have no shields and use their wings for flight rather than spread the weapons from the hull".

Plus a dose of "air combat doctrine consists of aiming for the enemy's ordnance".Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#767 - 2013-12-06 11:00:23 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:


I'm hopeful, but not foolhardy. I'll be critical of the game, but trashing a concept in the works especially one that has an insane amount of funding behind it is quite a stretch.



I think most of the art and design in Star Citizen looks like absolute ****. And it is a damn that none of the insane amount of funding meant hiring people that has experience of designing something that looks like something that could actually work in space warfare.

In the other corner, you have David Braben's Elite Dangerous, with far more meager resources, which delivers.


Point 1: no game has ever atempted to depict realistic space warfare for the very simple reason that it would make an awful game.

Point 2: that you don't like SC art should not be a new. Anyway, they're functional starships with discrete elements and a damage model designed according to the school of "function makes the shape". I wonder what makes you think that they would not work in space warfare...

Point 3: EVE ships are designed purely for aesthetics without any pretense of functionality, and their damage model consists of three lifebars. But I can't recall you criticizing EVE's pretty flying nonsenses... maybe because they're pretty?


1. Wrong. Because we, as a species, have yet to experience space warfare. But I know for a fact that spaceships designed for space combat wouldn't benefit from having wings unlike a airplane that clings to a planet's atmosphere.

2. Simple. If they are "functional" star ships with the damage model you describe, then all I need is to aim at your external weapons (missiles mounted on wings, etc) to turn you into a cloud of fire. Something else that springs to mind is microscopic debris that can do a lot more than just rupture a missile sitting on your wing.

3. Never said that I love EVE's art style. Some of it is good, some of it not so good.


So it all summarizes as "I don't know what I am talking, so SC ships only have external missile mounts, have no shields and use their wings for flight rather than spread the weapons from the hull".

Plus a dose of "air combat doctrine consists of aiming for the enemy's ordnance".Roll


Well, with Chris Roberts, realism has never been a factor when developing space shooters like the Wing Commander games, Starlancer, Freelancer and Star Citizen, so the argument is quite moot at this point. It does however irks me that the ships look that bad in comparison to the ships in David Braben's Elite.

Aiming at incoming ordnance isn't as far fetched if that is what you believe. The Aegis Combat System has been around since the late '80s, using CIWS and missiles to destroy incoming threats. On top of that, Lockheed Martin has been running successful tests with their ADAM laser to destroy missiles mid-flight and the natural evolution of that is more sophisticated computer systems that can find, track, specify and destroy targets long before humans can, using lasers. With that in mind, even in the world of sci-fi, only a complete fool would have external weapons mounted in the far-future with interstellar travel if all it takes is a computer getting a lock on your missiles mounted to the hull or wings...

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Varathius
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#768 - 2013-12-06 17:29:50 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There's so much promise and hype being heaped on Star Citizen right now that we can pretty much guarantee it will be a hilarious meltdown of failure and crushed dreams. I mean we're talking Daikatana, Duke Nukem Forever, IL2 Cliffs of Dover, Racing Legends, and Half Life 2 Episode 3 levels of disappointment all rolled into one neat package.

The forum threads are going to be amazing


You are right, but then again, we are kind of used to it here in the Eve Universe. It's not like CCP has made anything special in the recent years, except, mostly failures. Nerf BCs, and then create, Faction versions of them for a much higher price. I mean, please....
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#769 - 2013-12-06 19:16:07 UTC
Quote:
With no artificial limits in place to make fights "Fair" and asset losses being permanent it also features probably the most fun PvP.


Unfortunately for every video game ever created PvP is limited by the amount of internet and cpu bandwidth the server can provide.

Eve by far has the most and people still complain about it all the time.

As far as loss is concerned, Freelancer had both twitch based PvP AND the server could be flagged for real loss or minimal loss. Needless to say the real loss servers were less populated. I ONLY played on real loss servers. You didnt lose your ship, but you lost everything in it and ammo was EXPENSIVE.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#770 - 2013-12-07 07:28:12 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There's so much promise and hype being heaped on Star Citizen right now that we can pretty much guarantee it will be a hilarious meltdown of failure and crushed dreams. I mean we're talking Daikatana, Duke Nukem Forever, IL2 Cliffs of Dover, Racing Legends, and Half Life 2 Episode 3 levels of disappointment all rolled into one neat package.

The forum threads are going to be amazing


No no no, you see this time it will be different, this time it's not just a hype bubble, and Mr Roberts will be able to put all his promises into working code and release it on schedule

There definitely won't be a trail of tears as one feature after another gets abandoned, compromised or just "promised for later" because the normal constraints and problems of game development won't apply because community!!!!!11

And let's not forget that there's no way in hell that a famous game developer can fail to produce anything but a stupendously awesome basic game to hang all those features on.

And then of course there's the cast iron, legally binding requirement to actually produce anything at all...

Man I think I'm gonna go pay another $2000 dollars for a picture of a spaceship in a game that might come out in 2 or 3 years. It's an investment, can't you see?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#771 - 2013-12-07 07:31:25 UTC
Call me crazy, but I think Malcanis is being sarcastic.


Anyway, if SC delivers, we get a cool new space game to play, if it tanks, the ocean of tears which result will keep us sustained for years to come.

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#772 - 2013-12-07 12:35:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There's so much promise and hype being heaped on Star Citizen right now that we can pretty much guarantee it will be a hilarious meltdown of failure and crushed dreams. I mean we're talking Daikatana, Duke Nukem Forever, IL2 Cliffs of Dover, Racing Legends, and Half Life 2 Episode 3 levels of disappointment all rolled into one neat package.

The forum threads are going to be amazing


No no no, you see this time it will be different, this time it's not just a hype bubble, and Mr Roberts will be able to put all his promises into working code and release it on schedule

There definitely won't be a trail of tears as one feature after another gets abandoned, compromised or just "promised for later" because the normal constraints and problems of game development won't apply because community!!!!!11

And let's not forget that there's no way in hell that a famous game developer can fail to produce anything but a stupendously awesome basic game to hang all those features on.

And then of course there's the cast iron, legally binding requirement to actually produce anything at all...

Man I think I'm gonna go pay another $2000 dollars for a picture of a spaceship in a game that might come out in 2 or 3 years. It's an investment, can't you see?


You managed to be more misinformed about SC, than I am about the Hallelujah Plan. In my case, it's because of heavy NDA and CCP don't sharing all their toys, but, what is your excuse to not know what you talk about when there is publicly available information?

FAI, to your benefit and to that of others, will just share a little piece of information:

Every additional feature past the 26 million mark will be released after launch as they belong to post launch plans rather than development plans.

No feature-creeping, no nasty surprises on what will and will not make it into initial launch. And yet supporters have given almost 8 additional million dollars since then; probably today will be reached the 34 million stretch goal.

By the way, a organizations system will be added to the SC forums next week. This will allow players to formalize the already existing organizations and build their new ones. It's a lengthy topic so I'll just link the devblog:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13418-All-About-Organizations

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#773 - 2013-12-07 14:38:27 UTC
^ god one also was looking latest vid of man him self explaining PVP

to me it sounded that you will have some sort of slider that you can set to feed you with anywhere from PVE only encounters to PVP only and any mix of two.

And basically stating that NPC can and will be more dangerous than any real player can be not just for farming red dot.

Hi also stated that space will contain area where slider don't work it is pure PVP environment.

I cant say above sound bad for me at least.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#774 - 2013-12-07 22:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
The 34 million stretch goal just was unlocked. The goal was a smuggler ship, the MISC Hull C (Discreet):

MISC Hull C (Discreet) – Scaling from small “box trucks” to massive supertankers, the MISC range of cargo hulls (A-D) are the standard goods transporter in human space. Extremely configurable, MISC Hulls can be adapted for most any type of transport job: from standard bulk shipping on the patrolled spacelanes to armored cargo hauling on the frontier. While these pre-configured hulls are primarily used for legitimate purposes, the MISC Hull Cs have recently become the favorite for criminals who modify the ship with advanced sensor shadow technology, quick-decompress holds and a variety of hidden compartments without modifying the ship’s body so it will appear to onlookers as standard everyday transports.

Stretch goal for million 35 is the last of the ships voted by the community:

Drake Herald – Knowledge is power, and one of the most valuable commodities is pure information: the 1s and 0s behind everything from UEC ledgers to Citizenship ratings. Whether it’s colonists struggling to stay in contact with the UEE’s central worlds or criminals trading in illicit data, there will always be a need to securely move data. The Drake Herald, small, armored ship, is designed to fit that need and safely get that information from Point A to Point B. Featuring a powerful central engine (for high speed transit and generating the power needed for effective data encryption/containment), advanced encryption software and an armored computer core, the Herald is unique among personal spacecraft in that it is designed to be easily ‘cleaned’ when in danger of capture. The Herald includes an array of heavy duty internal options for data protection, including redundant power subsystems and EMP shielding, and a high-powered broadcast array for data transmission.

And stretch goal for million 36 was also voted by the community:

Tamsa System – Located near the fringe of Banu space, Tamsa System features a massive central star that has collapsed into a black hole. Evidence suggests that there were at least two more planets in the system when the star collapsed before the ensuing black hole engulfed them. Only two planets remain in the system, a chthonian world and a gas giant located far from the black hole’s event horizon. Initial surveys indicate that the two outer planets are slowly being pulled towards the black hole, leaving the two as a risky proposition at best for any sort of colonization.

As was announced for the next 5 stretch goals, voting is proceeding to pick the next special location to be added to the game.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#775 - 2013-12-07 22:39:58 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Every additional feature past the 26 million mark will be released after launch as they belong to post launch plans rather than development plans.

No feature-creeping, no nasty surprises on what will and will not make it into initial launch. And yet supporters have given almost 8 additional million dollars since then; probably today will be reached the 34 million stretch goal.
Up to now I thought you were just trolling, but you've actually been taken in by this, haven't you? You really can't grasp that at some point this game will intersect with reality and Chris Roberts saying it shall be so will not necessarily make it so.

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Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#776 - 2013-12-07 23:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Crumplecorn wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Every additional feature past the 26 million mark will be released after launch as they belong to post launch plans rather than development plans.

No feature-creeping, no nasty surprises on what will and will not make it into initial launch. And yet supporters have given almost 8 additional million dollars since then; probably today will be reached the 34 million stretch goal.
Up to now I thought you were just trolling, but you've actually been taken in by this, haven't you? You really can't grasp that at some point this game will intersect with reality and Chris Roberts saying it shall be so will not necessarily make it so.

Star Citizen in its current form is nothing but a 'walking your avatar around aimlessly' simulator, since that's all Ishtanchuk has ever wanted (to the point of vehemently advocating Incarna and the future of Eve be precisely that) why would you be surprised at this?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#777 - 2013-12-08 00:15:16 UTC
Still, at least that means we can be fairly confident Ishtanchuk hasn't already spent thousands of dollars on spaceships for this unwritten game like some others.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Miss Altiana
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#778 - 2013-12-08 03:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Altiana
Is it a leap of faith, maybe, all i can say is, go to SC, watch the development videos, and the streams and feeds that been done to show what CR and devs been up to, and what their working on.

I was sceptical at first also, but after seeing Chris Roberts, like alittle kid speaking of this game, i couldent but realice, hes making this game couse he wants to play also.

SC, just broke 34million dollar today, they gain about 1k people everyday, and by this rate all alfa access will be full and closed by end of december, roughly 350.000+ unique pledgers

we that have pledged await the DFM, dog fighting module, release this december, but i think its opimistic, so it might be januari, but i am in no hurry, it happens when it happens.

So i guess i and the other pledgers are onboard Mr Roberts Crazy train, and the goon tears on the forums, is in my opnion already wourth every cent Blink, see you in SC
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#779 - 2013-12-08 09:40:35 UTC
Miss Altiana wrote:
So i guess i and the other pledgers are onboard Mr Roberts Crazy train, and the goon tears on the forums, is in my opnion already wourth every cent Blink, see you in SC

I take it you've seen the hysteria and wild shrieking over on the SC forums about the fact there are Goon groups formed up to play if it ever releases?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#780 - 2013-12-08 11:01:16 UTC
Miss Altiana wrote:
Is it a leap of faith, maybe, all i can say is, go to SC, watch the development videos, and the streams and feeds that been done to show what CR and devs been up to, and what their working on.

I was sceptical at first also, but after seeing Chris Roberts, like alittle kid speaking of this game, i couldent but realice, hes making this game couse he wants to play also.

SC, just broke 34million dollar today, they gain about 1k people everyday, and by this rate all alfa access will be full and closed by end of december, roughly 350.000+ unique pledgers

we that have pledged await the DFM, dog fighting module, release this december, but i think its opimistic, so it might be januari, but i am in no hurry, it happens when it happens.

So i guess i and the other pledgers are onboard Mr Roberts Crazy train, and the goon tears on the forums, is in my opnion already wourth every cent Blink, see you in SC


Well, I haven't been tracking the forums nor anything else at SC site, but I just saw one of their Wingman's Hangar videos and it's plain amazing to see such passionate people doing what they love. Both developers and community members, it's like EVE on the road to Crucible, but better, as there are no grudges still.

Was quite surprised at the video questions. Seriously, players asking questions through "will we have THIS?, let me show you" videos?? Call that a passion! Lol

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you