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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7781 - 2013-11-20 18:11:28 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#7782 - 2013-11-20 18:31:06 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.



lol...
why even talk to the winner? they are both wrong.
the only ones who think they are OP are the "i overtank ever ship i fit cause i dont know how eve works" players.
and the ones who say they are nerfed beyond useability are the " i'm pro all others are dumb i am the only one that knows how to fly ships proper" players.

note this does not mean i see marauders rebalance as a sucsess.
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#7783 - 2013-11-20 18:49:47 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Sh0plifter wrote:
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Rubicon is out, so let's hear info. +'s and -'s for the New Marauders. Skills needed, how are then in PvE, and PvP, etc, etc


You made a funny. I like you.


Honestly, this ship is garbage. Get a T1 BS with a salvager, drop a mobile tractor beam and go to town with the same effect. Maybe even just run a noctis, that ship that made the marauder useless to begin with.

I still think the best option was to get rid of the tractorbeam + salvager bonuses. Replace it with more combat suited bonuses of some kind and let it out into open-world with the bastion mod still. If it had more of a combat role vs a NPC-fighting setup it would be used in PVP more often.


lol the mobile tractor beam is a joke . 100m is alot when your cargo bay is 600. if it was smart and only tractor in Large wrecks with loot first then it might be useful.

You realize that the mobile tractor has a 27,000m3 cargo hold. When using it in an area that would actually benefit from it your measly 600m3 isn't going to cut it to begin with. Then with that the noctis gets a 60% Range/Velocity per level. Giving it 300% R/V at level 5. Going 3x the amount the marauder can do. So wizzing through in a 150m fitted BS and either going back in a noctis or duel-boxing an alt is more effecient then doing it with a marauder. Because the range of 40 means the marauder is either Close-range/Close-ammo setup to do it as it goes or it has to move into range to do pull everything in. Where as the tractor/noctis get 120 and can pull everything in almost any mission/site/anomaly in landing so it can slowboat to the next accel gate if there is one there while it does everything.

Personally when I did PVE I would go in, nuke everything and have it dead by the next gate and then go. Come back in a Noctis or run an alt if I had one there in the mission area with me.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7784 - 2013-11-20 19:22:26 UTC
Sh0plifter wrote:
You realize that the mobile tractor has a 27,000m3 cargo hold. When using it in an area that would actually benefit from it your measly 600m3 isn't going to cut it to begin with. Then with that the noctis gets a 60% Range/Velocity per level. Giving it 300% R/V at level 5. Going 3x the amount the marauder can do. So wizzing through in a 150m fitted BS and either going back in a noctis or duel-boxing an alt is more effecient then doing it with a marauder. Because the range of 40 means the marauder is either Close-range/Close-ammo setup to do it as it goes or it has to move into range to do pull everything in. Where as the tractor/noctis get 120 and can pull everything in almost any mission/site/anomaly in landing so it can slowboat to the next accel gate if there is one there while it does everything.

Personally when I did PVE I would go in, nuke everything and have it dead by the next gate and then go. Come back in a Noctis or run an alt if I had one there in the mission area with me.

The only benefit the Noctis has now are the 8 slots for salvaging. Simply drop a mobile tractor unit in each level and come back with the Noctis to salvage all the wrecks in a single spot.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
DSpite Culhach
#7785 - 2013-11-20 20:51:39 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sh0plifter wrote:
You realize that the mobile tractor has a 27,000m3 cargo hold. When using it in an area that would actually benefit from it your measly 600m3 isn't going to cut it to begin with. Then with that the noctis gets a 60% Range/Velocity per level. Giving it 300% R/V at level 5. Going 3x the amount the marauder can do. So wizzing through in a 150m fitted BS and either going back in a noctis or duel-boxing an alt is more effecient then doing it with a marauder. Because the range of 40 means the marauder is either Close-range/Close-ammo setup to do it as it goes or it has to move into range to do pull everything in. Where as the tractor/noctis get 120 and can pull everything in almost any mission/site/anomaly in landing so it can slowboat to the next accel gate if there is one there while it does everything.

Personally when I did PVE I would go in, nuke everything and have it dead by the next gate and then go. Come back in a Noctis or run an alt if I had one there in the mission area with me.

The only benefit the Noctis has now are the 8 slots for salvaging. Simply drop a mobile tractor unit in each level and come back with the Noctis to salvage all the wrecks in a single spot.


But if you drop a tractor structure and fly off, it wont work will it? Dont you have to have a person on grid in order for it to function?

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7786 - 2013-11-20 21:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
DSpite Culhach wrote:
But if you drop a tractor structure and fly off, it wont work will it? Dont you have to have a person on grid in order for it to function?

Within missions it continues to tractor/loot, so you just have to return and scoop the mobile tractor units up. For a Marauder, I'd probably run 2-4 of the mobile tractor units, 2-3 salvagers and 5 salvage drones.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7787 - 2013-11-20 23:51:23 UTC
You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).

I for one welcome our new marauder overlords.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7788 - 2013-11-21 00:01:29 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).

I for one welcome our new marauder overlords.


We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears... Smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7789 - 2013-11-21 00:26:18 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).

I for one welcome our new marauder overlords.


We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears... Smile


For what? a hull with a cheap T2 fit that I can buy from less than a single afternoon's work? I mean if you catch a cap fleet that will take at least 3 afternoons to replace then maybe but a single marauder? pfft.

kids Roll

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7790 - 2013-11-21 00:38:20 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
You can solo C5 sites in a T2 fit Vargur with either boosts or a Crystal set (and it seems the Pally can do it too).

I for one welcome our new marauder overlords.


We are so looking forward to finding these solo wormhole maraduers. Oh the tears... Smile


For what? a hull with a cheap T2 fit that I can buy from less than a single afternoon's work? I mean if you catch a cap fleet that will take at least 3 afternoons to replace then maybe but a single marauder? pfft.

kids Roll


For what? For what do we do anything in eve? For the fun! turning over a solo marauder and stealing its loot is the kind of thing that passes for opportunistic fun in WH space.

If I remember the video correctly, the vargur did one kind of c5 site in 50 minutes. To earn enough for a new vargur, you're going to have to do 5 sites - that's 5 hours.

There's quite a good chance that in that time a wormhole will open up into you, so you'll need to keep your eyes on the probe scan.

You might come out ahead, but there will be some nice killmails.

Don't take me the wrong way. I think that it's a good thing that there are ships that can do this - it will bring more life and interest to wormhole space, which seems to have become a little quiet recently.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7791 - 2013-11-21 07:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.

I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7792 - 2013-11-21 09:29:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.

I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder.


:-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin.

This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet.

This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous.

As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7793 - 2013-11-21 09:29:59 UTC
actually he was doing around 300mill an hour so for a 1.2bill ship + fit its 4 hours. that said with a buddy as we are planning on running we should be able to reach around 750 an hour if we're good (refit to gank fit when not being focused will improve timess) meaning our break even will be around 3hours.

also being able to carry and refit to pvp fit before you even land means we should be able to give a small gang a run for its money.

hmm bait vargur... I hear thats a thing now

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7794 - 2013-11-21 09:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.

I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder.


:-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin.

This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet.

This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous.

As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game.




Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.

But I would prefer if the marauder had gotten only 50% more repair and in exchange 20% more damage.

That would make them central in static combat, not somethign you just ignore until the rest of the targets are gone.

Also you cannot compare the tank to a dread tank. a dozen arti boats will crush your marauders crossing the defense layer in 1 volley, while the dread only has to worry with a titan DD doing that ( because lets be frank, even in 0.0 500 battleships is not a common sight on a single gang).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7795 - 2013-11-21 09:40:58 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.


The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec.


Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7796 - 2013-11-21 10:26:28 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.


The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec.


Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping.


You're right in null sec and 0.0
In WH space they are going to be very relevant. The fleets are smaller and (usually) there are no capitals.

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.


Almost all WH combat is in a bubble, at ether a wormhole or a combat anomaly. The fight is very localised. Any ewar coming from the (immune to ewar) marauder is extremely relevant since it cannot be countered in any way other than a full (and lossy) retreat.

I take the point about alpahing a marauder (although the bait golem has about 250,000 ehp before you run the tank...)
However, in WH space people just don't roam around in fleets of 25 artillery tornados like they do in 0.0 - you'd get murdered on a wormhole by a 5-man T3 fleet, and in any case there are just not enough targets available in a short enough time to keep the fleet interested.

WH combat is like u-boat combat - you spend a long time looking for a prize in a small squad.

Using a triage marauder in a C3/4 with a backup fleet nearby will become the bait-du-jour, and obvious bait is obvious.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7797 - 2013-11-21 10:49:55 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
These new marauders at first look like an awesome opportunity, but they are so OP that they will spoil the game.

I wish I could get all dudes rambling that new marauders are nerfed beyond all recognition, put them together in one room with all dudes rambling that new marauders are overpowered like hell, give to each a brick and talk with the one who goes out.


The thing is, marauders made even easier to do PVE, but was already easier. But they are worse at doign isk/h in high sec.


Also the ship may LOOK powerful for PVP on paper, but on real battleground its immobility makes it not very relevant anywhere outside high sec POS bashing. Anywhere else they are just food for naglfar insta popping.


You're right in null sec and 0.0
In WH space they are going to be very relevant. The fleets are smaller and (usually) there are no capitals.

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Bastion is not even powerful for most pvp scenarios. The power projection of the ship is very low. It cannot go along your fleet movement during combat so its use is very limited.


Almost all WH combat is in a bubble, at ether a wormhole or a combat anomaly. The fight is very localised. Any ewar coming from the (immune to ewar) marauder is extremely relevant since it cannot be countered in any way other than a full (and lossy) retreat.

I take the point about alpahing a marauder (although the bait golem has about 250,000 ehp before you run the tank...)
However, in WH space people just don't roam around in fleets of 25 artillery tornados like they do in 0.0 - you'd get murdered on a wormhole by a 5-man T3 fleet, and in any case there are just not enough targets available in a short enough time to keep the fleet interested.

WH combat is like u-boat combat - you spend a long time looking for a prize in a small squad.

Using a triage marauder in a C3/4 with a backup fleet nearby will become the bait-du-jour, and obvious bait is obvious.




Granted I do not have deep feel of wh current meta. My views are mostly from high sec, low sec and 0.0 combat. And low sec and 0.0 are not healthy places for marauders.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7798 - 2013-11-21 10:51:19 UTC
yea man those roaming gangs of nags flying around wh space is what you have to look out for.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7799 - 2013-11-21 13:19:15 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I'm divided on the changes. On the one hand I really like that finally a battleship has a tank that is superior to everything else in game subcap. On the other I can tank a Blood Raider 10/10 without hardners and be cap stable. Seems slightly OP. But also its a battleship.

I'd like to see this on normal battleships but without the EW immunity and perhaps half the tankability of the Marauder.


:-) since you can build a dual-rep, triple remote rep, cap stable paladin which (with fleet boosts) tanks 9000dps with plenty of cap to spare, (+100 Gj/s) while being totally immune to ECM, I'd say marauders were totally OP - by a wide margin.

This triage marauder tanks as much as a... *dreadnaught in siege mode* while delivering 700dps, repairing its buddies and shrugging off a 12-man cruiser fleet.

This would be reasonable for a carrier, not a battleship. Bastion is just ridiculous.

As I said before, I'll abuse it while I can, but it needs to be removed from the game.


I don't see why being able to build a battleship, let me say that again - battleship - with an awesome tank, that can't be shut down by a ECM mod and made pointless, while doing ok but not OP dps, nowhere near that of a regular battleship with that sort of tank, is bad.

Why should battles be over in a few seconds, or a minute, that's a small ship mentality, these are battleships. They're supposed to do battle. Marauders are finally in the right spot on the field imo, I only hope that CCP follows up and allows bastion or some version on other battleships so they can be useful as well.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7800 - 2013-11-21 14:31:58 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
yea man those roaming gangs of nags flying around wh space is what you have to look out for.



As I said, my view was not about WH, I am at least capable of addressing a statement as a minimally brain capable human. You on other hand must make a ******** statement that is on goon level of wisdom.

So I am forced to reply.. grand news.. WH population is a TINY fraction of 0.0 and low sec combined!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"