These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Caldari and missiles pvp ?

Author
Israel Dimico
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-11-13 10:02:12 UTC
Hi all I've recently started playing this game and am enjoying it! I am here to ask for advice on clearing up rumors and setting me straight from the start. The topic, ships, weapons, and races.

I have an amarr toon and caldari toon. Both noobs and only couple hundred thousand SP. I want to fly caldari because I think missiles are cool and the caldari ships look cool. Some say fly what you like and you can be good at it, others say "no no, caldari sucks and are carebears". Can eve vets out there tell me if the rumor of caldari for pvp is true, as in, not used for pvp?

I know you can fly any ship and the race creation you start with doesn't matter, but I'm trying to sort out several ideas before I waste time. I don't want to train all my skills in missiles and caldari if (when I'm ready) decide to join a corps, get denied because I've spent months training stuff that isn't useful to them.

Everyone says fly what and how you want and it can be viable, so there is no cookie cutter builds? Ok if that is true then I want to fly a strong, slow tank (shields), firing tons of missiles that deal a big punch, I want to be able to take lots of damage and maintain long range while doing so. Anyone point me in the right direction?

Also, I like amarr because they look cool too, I'm always obsessed with large, slow (tank), heavy firepower ships. The problem I found early with amarr is my weapons quickly drain my capacitor. Any guidance on racial ships would be great appreciated from the experienced players out there.

My ultimate goal isn't however pvp, it is industry and flying a charon. Any guidance is greatly appreciated, IM NOT ASKING what can I fly to be OP, simply are my intentions viable for decent corps and decent pvp.

Thank you for the replies!
Forest Archer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-11-13 10:28:31 UTC
While missiles are not the favored pvp weapon there is nothing wrong with them. The flaw with them in General is unlike guns the damage take time to hit. The other lesser flaw is like drones the damage can be mitigated or outran if you have a fast enough ship and know how to do it. Now missiles are still used because unlike most other weapon systems you can choose your damage and it always hits for specified damage. A bigger problem for getting into corps is usually fly specified fits, but as you have 2 different toons you shouldn't have an issue especially because you want to do Indy stuff.

Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if you're in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. Pub Channel: Lost Souls Trading Post

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-11-13 12:40:19 UTC
Forest Archer wrote:
While missiles are not the favored pvp weapon there is nothing wrong with them. The flaw with them in General is unlike guns the damage take time to hit. The other lesser flaw is like drones the damage can be mitigated or outran if you have a fast enough ship and know how to do it. Now missiles are still used because unlike most other weapon systems you can choose your damage and it always hits for specified damage. A bigger problem for getting into corps is usually fly specified fits, but as you have 2 different toons you shouldn't have an issue especially because you want to do Indy stuff.


This.


Missiles are still useful in PvP. Like all things in EVE, they comes with their own set of pros and cons.

Also, dont stress too much about making the wrong decision. I started as a Caldari character, but eventually joined a corp that flew Amarr ships. So while I trained for those ships I acted as a scout or tackle (as both of those are done by frigates and tank on a frigate doesnt really matter much).

In the end, play as you like. The only wrong way of playing EVE is in such a way that you ajnt having fun playing.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-11-13 13:02:03 UTC
One issue with missiles I find is that against close range weapons (auto cannons, blasters, pulse lasers) you will find your dps less then theirs. This is of course countered by the argument that missiles give better range for the same dps so if you can control range then you can avoid them.

Though for some reason I can never 'control range'
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-11-13 13:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Paul Otichoda wrote:
One issue with missiles I find is that against close range weapons (auto cannons, blasters, pulse lasers) you will find your dps less then theirs. This is of course countered by the argument that missiles give better range for the same dps so if you can control range then you can avoid them.

Though for some reason I can never 'control range'


That is a flawed concept.

Unlike guns that hits 2 types of resist you can focus entirely on a ships resist hole using missiles. So you may actually end up doing more DPS then you would with guns. Even if your DPS on the turret ships is rated higher then your missile ship.

I find Heavy Assualt Missile to be my fav weapons system when flying my Amarr T3 Cruiser.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Dkeh Weis
Digital Innovations
#6 - 2013-11-13 14:09:45 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
One issue with missiles I find is that against close range weapons (auto cannons, blasters, pulse lasers) you will find your dps less then theirs. This is of course countered by the argument that missiles give better range for the same dps so if you can control range then you can avoid them.

Though for some reason I can never 'control range'


That is a flawed concept.

Unlike guns that hits 2 types of resist you can focus entirely on a ships resist hole using missiles. So you may actually end up doing more DPS then you would with guns. Even if your DPS on the turret ships is rated higher then your missile ship.

I find Heavy Assualt Missile to be my fav weapons system when flying my Amarr T3 Cruiser.



Oh look, Cannibal Kane talking about how to kill things. I am inclined to agree with him Shocked

dontmurderme.jpg

Eve will make you work a solid month all on your own for your first cookie. Then kick you in the nuts and take that cookie, and laugh at you for thinking you could have a cookie at all.

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#7 - 2013-11-13 14:49:40 UTC
There are plenty of PVP missile boats that do very well, especially in solo/small gang or as fleet support. The number of options form primary fleet DPS boats are reduced, but they still exist (those tengus be crazy). For beginners the Condor is normally the ship of choice.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-11-13 15:19:24 UTC
Missiles are generally disliked in large scale PvP engagements, as the target will be dead before your missiles reach it.
But for medium/small gangs & solo PvP, there's nothing wrong with them.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-11-13 15:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
There aren't any ships that can fly fast enough to evade all your missile dps
some are fast enough to mitigate a reasonable chunk of it though

also provided they are within your maximum range (velocity x flight time) a missile is always going to hit for some damage
you will mostly only ever see your 'on paper' dps figures when shooting at an oversized target
ie when shooting light missiles at a BC

you will only ever score hits (1x dps) though with missiles
misses (0x dps) and penetrating hits (3x dps) are the exclusive domain of guns & drones
lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-11-14 05:51:17 UTC
Since no one has said it:

Ships to fly as Caldari if you like missiles are:

T1
Condor - Fast tackle with almost cookie cutter kiting fit, or close range brawler fit for surprise
Kestrel - Good kiter, can brawl. Decent to good DPS with Light Missiles and Rockets
Corax - No idea how to fit this thing. Sorry.
Caracal - Good frigate killer with RLML, decent kiter/semi brawler with HAM or HML
Drake - Staple of the Caldari missile spammers. Can be fitted with HML or HAM, strong tank, decent speed, decent agility etc..

T2/Navy/Pirate
Hookbill - Kestrel/Hawk on steroids. Lots of mids for ewar (webs) with strong tank. One of the better frigate sized scram range kiters there.
Hawk - Good rocket platform, lots of mids like hookbill. Decent LML platform as 'support' but overall better with rockets
Cerberus - Haven't flown this in a long time, but slightly better Caracal for 10x the price.
Gila/Worm - Probably don't bother, but can be unexpected surprise buttsex for unsuspecting pilots.
Navy caracal - Caracal on steroids
Navy Drake - Drake with more DPS, less tank, slightly faster

BS:
Raven - T1 BS. Almost the best at PVE, OK-ish in PVP, needs fleet support and not really a solo BS
Navy Raven - Faction Raven, better Raven
Golem - T2 Raven. Expensive but can work depending on how you fit. Low sensor strength though this is changing I think
Rattlesnake - Good tank. That's about it.

Please note I haven't flown the above in a long time, mostly theorycrafting based on experience and EFT Lol
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#11 - 2013-11-14 12:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
lollerwaffle wrote:
Cerberus - Haven't flown this in a long time, but slightly better Caracal for 10x the price.


Just a quicky, the Cerberus is a powerhorse and can rip holes in a lot of things... Keep an eye out for the Cerberus in the future.
70km + with Rapid Light Missiles, tears Frigates a new hole. And HAM fit it can even hold its own against the bigger ships Big smile

Its actually a lot better than its T1 brother.

As for the Navy Caracal, not much point in going for that over a regular Caracal really, bonus to damage via scourge missiles on the regular Caracal no bonus on the Navy version. Also same with shields, Navy Caracal just has more...

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

Ella Meza
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-11-14 13:20:02 UTC
I am the above poster (alt toon here). Thanks for all of the replies and lessons it really has helped me make some crucial choices. I also like the amarr ships. can anyone give a comparison or run down of caldari vs amarr? Im kind of torn between the two, im kind of nit picky with how ships look. like the corax looks real sweet, and the naga too. or the big caldari capital seige ship, forget the name of it, they are look so cool and its my idea of a spaceship. but i also like so many of the amarr ships, like on the industrial side i think that the providence is sick looking! and the executioner looks cool. but some of their BS look silly in my opinion.

what are some deciding factors that you guys know between amarr and caldari fighting styles? is one better at range than the other? i know you dont have to reload typically as amarr but that isnt a biiggy to me. ive heard you can use missiles as amarr as well? I may end up just training some decent caldari then go for some decent amarr skills and see what i like by the time i get mediocre skill sets for each race.. any ideas and differences are greatly appreciated and i humbly and gratefully read the replies. please continue the teaching lessons for this noobie!
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#13 - 2013-11-14 13:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Ella Meza wrote:
I am the above poster (alt toon here). Thanks for all of the replies and lessons it really has helped me make some crucial choices. I also like the amarr ships. can anyone give a comparison or run down of caldari vs amarr? Im kind of torn between the two, im kind of nit picky with how ships look. like the corax looks real sweet, and the naga too. or the big caldari capital seige ship, forget the name of it, they are look so cool and its my idea of a spaceship. but i also like so many of the amarr ships, like on the industrial side i think that the providence is sick looking! and the executioner looks cool. but some of their BS look silly in my opinion.

what are some deciding factors that you guys know between amarr and caldari fighting styles? is one better at range than the other? i know you dont have to reload typically as amarr but that isnt a biiggy to me. ive heard you can use missiles as amarr as well? I may end up just training some decent caldari then go for some decent amarr skills and see what i like by the time i get mediocre skill sets for each race.. any ideas and differences are greatly appreciated and i humbly and gratefully read the replies. please continue the teaching lessons for this noobie!


You mean the Phoenix? Aye that is somewhat a powerhouse of a rather poor ship Sad my favourite ship in the game that, and its the worst Dreadnaught out there, it needs some CCP love. But I'm still gonna train for it eventually, because it is simply the most brilliant looking ship.

As for what to decide, for me it was a no brainer really, I love shields and the look of the Widow (to which I want to fly eventually) so I knew where I was heading.

Fly whatever you like best, some skills will transfer between the two races, there are some okay Amarr missile boats, but most skills are different and dont transfer to each race. Such as Armour Tanking skills and Lasers (I dont know any one Laser Caldari ship although I have seen an Armour Tanked, Cruise Missile (x4) and Mining laser (x4) Rokh Shocked)

Best thing to do (although you may already be doing it with your alt) train both? And decide for yourself which you prefere.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-11-14 14:23:47 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Seraph Essael wrote:
Ella Meza wrote:
I am the above poster (alt toon here). Thanks for all of the replies and lessons it really has helped me make some crucial choices. I also like the amarr ships. can anyone give a comparison or run down of caldari vs amarr? Im kind of torn between the two, im kind of nit picky with how ships look. like the corax looks real sweet, and the naga too. or the big caldari capital seige ship, forget the name of it, they are look so cool and its my idea of a spaceship. but i also like so many of the amarr ships, like on the industrial side i think that the providence is sick looking! and the executioner looks cool. but some of their BS look silly in my opinion.

what are some deciding factors that you guys know between amarr and caldari fighting styles? is one better at range than the other? i know you dont have to reload typically as amarr but that isnt a biiggy to me. ive heard you can use missiles as amarr as well? I may end up just training some decent caldari then go for some decent amarr skills and see what i like by the time i get mediocre skill sets for each race.. any ideas and differences are greatly appreciated and i humbly and gratefully read the replies. please continue the teaching lessons for this noobie!


You mean the Phoenix? Aye that is somewhat a powerhouse of a rather poor ship Sad my favourite ship in the game that, and its the worst Dreadnaught out there, it needs some CCP love. But I'm still gonna train for it eventually, because it is simply the most brilliant looking ship.

As for what to decide, for me it was a no brainer really, I love shields and the look of the Widow (to which I want to fly eventually) so I knew where I was heading.

Fly whatever you like best, some skills will transfer between the two races, there are some okay Amarr missile boats, but most skills are different and dont transfer to each race. Such as Armour Tanking skills and Lasers (I dont know any one Laser Caldari ship although I have seen an Armour Tanked, Cruise Missile (x4) and Mining laser (x4) Rokh Shocked)

Best thing to do (although you may already be doing it with your alt) train both? And decide for yourself which you prefere.


Ooh the mining rokh, the fun good olx days.

Speaking of guns, the good part is that their support skills do cross over. So they wont only help lasers but also hybrids and projectile turrets.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#15 - 2013-11-14 15:27:05 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Ooh the mining rokh, the fun good olx days.

Speaking of guns, the good part is that their support skills do cross over. So they wont only help lasers but also hybrids and projectile turrets.


Good old days, I know mining Rokh's where popular but this Cruise Battery, Mining, Armour Rokh was last month... I nearly wept for the sake of humanity.

But I digress, I knew there was something I missed out damnit: Gunnery crossover skills!!!

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-11-15 04:03:23 UTC
Ella Meza wrote:
I am the above poster (alt toon here). Thanks for all of the replies and lessons it really has helped me make some crucial choices. I also like the amarr ships. can anyone give a comparison or run down of caldari vs amarr? Im kind of torn between the two, im kind of nit picky with how ships look. like the corax looks real sweet, and the naga too. or the big caldari capital seige ship, forget the name of it, they are look so cool and its my idea of a spaceship. but i also like so many of the amarr ships, like on the industrial side i think that the providence is sick looking! and the executioner looks cool. but some of their BS look silly in my opinion.

what are some deciding factors that you guys know between amarr and caldari fighting styles? is one better at range than the other? i know you dont have to reload typically as amarr but that isnt a biiggy to me. ive heard you can use missiles as amarr as well? I may end up just training some decent caldari then go for some decent amarr skills and see what i like by the time i get mediocre skill sets for each race.. any ideas and differences are greatly appreciated and i humbly and gratefully read the replies. please continue the teaching lessons for this noobie!

To answer your questions:

Caldari: Shield tankers, have good range (railguns and missiles) but not so stellar DPS, decent agility especially since they don't armor tank which slows you down, OK-ish speed. The ships used to be quite specialized meaning they excel in a role but are rubbish outside of it (as opposed to jack of all trades like Minmatar). With the new balancing, they have been brought more towards a generalist role, changing to damage bonuses from range in some cases. Caldari have the best (?) ewar in the form of ECM, but this doesn't scale well as you move up in fleet size, and the mechanics are chance based unlike other forms of ewar. Caldari ships are suited for small gang, medium gang and large fleet work (depending on your fleet doctrine/composition), and semi-decent at solo PVP.

Amarr: Armor tankers, decent DPS and decent range, can adapt to different ranges quickly by ammo change (~1 second). Generally slower and less agile since they rely on armor tanking with plates and/or reppers. Damage is limited to EM/Thermal via lasers, but have a secondary lines of ships that use missiles (short range rockets/HAMs), drones etc. Primary ewar is neuts and secondary ewar is tracking distruptor (or do I have these the wrong way around?). Have some OK soloboats but generally tend towards gang/fleet work.

Looks-wise, I prefer the Caldari function over form looks, but some people prefer giant golden spacedildo instead. Eventually you'll be zoomed all the way out to see what is on the field anyway, so /shrugs
Errende Ebecee
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-11-15 05:37:42 UTC
Yes, missiles suck in PvP. Damage missiles do is based on target's velocity and signature radius. Which means any enemy ship using skirmish links, and show me one that won't, will laught at your damage, and missiles' damage isn't exactly good to begin with.

And before you say that velocity and sig affect turrets as well, it does but can be mitigated by good piloting. Missiles suck no matter what you do.
Chris Carlyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-11-24 19:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Percival Rose
Errende Ebecee wrote:
Yes, missiles suck in PvP. Damage missiles do is based on target's velocity and signature radius. Which means any enemy ship using skirmish links, and show me one that won't, will laught at your damage, and missiles' damage isn't exactly good to begin with.

And before you say that velocity and sig affect turrets as well, it does but can be mitigated by good piloting. Missiles suck no matter what you do.


This sounds like Caldari, or at least it's missile boats, are anything but optimal in PvP. Are you suggesting it's wise to cross-train another race for PvP?

Do you know who's going to inherit New Eden? Arms dealers. Because everyone else is too busy killing each other.

Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-11-24 20:44:20 UTC
Missiles are viable.

We have one fleet comp entire based on missiles and another with lots of missile boats in it.

Though note we do not participate in the 2000 man battles in 0.0.

Of course it is better to be able to use both missiles and guns :) But missiles are far from useless in pvp.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#20 - 2013-11-25 01:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Israel Dimico wrote:


I know you can fly any ship and the race creation you start with doesn't matter, but I'm trying to sort out several ideas before I waste time. I don't want to train all my skills in missiles and caldari if (when I'm ready) decide to join a corps, get denied because I've spent months training stuff that isn't useful to them.

Everyone says fly what and how you want and it can be viable,

Thank you for the replies!


Hrm, no one has even alluded to this yet. A lot of the time what you have to fly isn't determined by your likes at all. Back in the days when I had a pure amarr character. I had just moved to Vale of the Silent and my ship got blown up. I went to buy a new one and found out that in null, it is catch as can. The only frigates available on the market were rifters and I didn't even have minnie frigate 1. So I had to train Minnie frigate and basic guns.

Then later I join a corp in Providence that had a sniper BS doctrine. Everyone was required to fit a sniper bs, T1 for a little while, but we were expected to make t2 asap.

Then I join another corp and that alliance had a Caldari doctrine, mostly drakes, which later included a Tengu doctrine. That was very frustrating for me because they wouldn't reim any ships I could fly, only doctrine ships are refundable naturally. So I had to learn to fly caldari.

So what you fly will be heavily determined by the corp/alliance you are in, the local availability, and LAST your personal preference if you are truly into PvP and you head out to Null.

Yes, whatever people say here Caldari are excellent PvP, or they wouldn't be doctrine for ANY Major alliance

I fly amarr, because Amarr ships are beautiful, and Caldari ships were UGLY when I made this char. The new shading and textures really do make me regret biomassing my first char. That and the couple month of training lost.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

12Next page