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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1881 - 2013-10-22 12:22:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The problem of T3 is generaly that they are better at some thing than specialized ships which is not what they should be.


Actually i don't think that is true. All t2 cruisers can do things T3s can't.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1882 - 2013-10-22 12:57:41 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The problem of T3 is generaly that they are better at some thing than specialized ships which is not what they should be.


Actually i don't think that is true. All t2 cruisers can do things T3s can't.

Well, yes indeed, but thing changed with rebalance of T2 ships.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1883 - 2013-10-22 17:35:39 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seolfor wrote:
Its that The Stratios can do the same WHILE ALSO sporting a Cov Ops cloak.

This is a problem. Read, Think, Post.

Reading before posting, it's very interesting you say that, because you talking about something I already discuss a few pages ago : a cloaky proteus can have 100kehp and 600dps with covops cloak, and it *already* exists. Yet nobody ever complained about it. Why ? Why did the cloaky Proteus not have broke EVE yet if this Stratios is going to do so ?

The only complaints about T3 are the 100MN AB fit and more generaly fleet and combat fits ; and not so long ago there was the problem of the links better on them than on command ship on top of cloaky nullifier ; and of course the cloaky nullifier fits which are only good at making bubble camper to emorage because they can't catch them. The problem of T3 is generaly that they are better at some thing than specialized ships which is not what they should be. Yet cloaky gank fit is a niche they are the only ones to occupy, and this niche have never see serious complaints whereas the power of the current cloaky Proteus is a lot higher than the Stratios will ever be.


As I posted before, Proteus has 600 DPS with Void only AND it has only three midslots, which means one web. You make post after post about damage application and completely neglect it here. 3km optimal and a tracking penalty makes applying full dps pretty damn hard.

Second, the stratios doesn't just have 700 DPS, it has 700 DPS AND 3 or 4 neuts, depending on whether a probe launcher is fitted. Anything cruiser sized will be capped out in 20 seconds max, and then they can forget about guns or tank.

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#1884 - 2013-10-22 18:01:33 UTC
I think that the cruiser looks great as it currently is, however I think the frigate is lacking one or both of the following.

Should have a 3rd high slot, and or should have no targeting delay much like current stealth bombers. If you are trying to surprise someone with this ship, the 15 or more seconds of not targeting is terribly detrimental to a frigate where fights typically last 60 seconds or less.

I would argue that the frig should have the target delay bonus and keep the 2 high slots as a tradeoff (instead of sporting 3 high slots). But that's just how I see it.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1885 - 2013-10-22 18:05:51 UTC
cruiser is good but not game breaking.

the frigate seems a litle weak to me
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1886 - 2013-10-22 18:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Reading before posting, it's very interesting you say that, because you talking about something I already discuss a few pages ago : a cloaky proteus can have 100kehp and 600dps with covops cloak, and it *already* exists. Yet nobody ever complained about it. Why ? Why did the cloaky Proteus not have broke EVE yet if this Stratios is going to do so ?

.


Where to begin ..

T3 price (to be fair, we dont know for sure where the Stratios price will settle. I doubt will be more than 250m given LPs farmed in highsec)
T3 skill requirements of 5 subsystems v/s L5 of 2 Racial Cruisers
Loss of SPs everytime you die
600 paper dps using VOID, gluck applying that with 1 web and derp tracking
Blaster based dps - cap dependent - Neuts counter you
Locked to Therm+Kin ie 600 is far less vs Gal/Cal T2/T3 ships (ie half the T2/T3 ships in all of EvE)
Not that your tracking is superb, but a single TD will all frak you up further
NO PROJECTION beyond scram range, even with Null.

So, the 'applied practical dps' of a NOMG 600 dps cloaky proteus is nowhere near what the Stratios will be, AND more importantly, its balanced by both - the fact that multiple things can counter it AND the price of ship/SP loss.

Cloaku Proteus 600 dps, yes, a very strong ship, but with above limitations, its far from gamebreaking
Cloaky Loki 450 dps
Cloaky Recons sub 300 dps

Cloaky Stratios 700+ DPS all applied on a scrammed, double webbed target being capped out by 3/4 Neuts.

Please stop being bad, fly a similar fit Vexor, Vexor Navy or Ishtar and realize how game breaking a CovOps cloak is when added to All of this capability.

Lolwut.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1887 - 2013-10-22 20:35:50 UTC
HAHA ! Now that's priceless ! Stating that sentry drones have more practical damage application than medium blasters !!

Well, I have nothing else to add. I mean, you greatly enumerate all drawbacks of blasters, very good. Now, please do the same with sentries, and then build a fantasy where the Stratios will always meet all conditions to use full sentry dps but not blaster dps.

Good luck.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#1888 - 2013-10-22 20:53:04 UTC
Didn't CCP recently figure out after years of certain Amarr ships being fitted with autocannons almost exclusively that a cap bonus to a weapon doesn't make it worth fitting when there's an entire type of turret that uses no cap at ll.
Kaddiska
O-NIWABAN
#1889 - 2013-10-22 21:01:58 UTC
evening all

although I´ve read this entire thread (and the maurauder one too.....yeah I had a few days), I can only say we are simply entertaining the (CCP) devil(s) here

speculation will get us only so far - we need these ships on SiSi now to get the real facts down

so (and I'm only quoting about a dozen posts here, en masse):
Give us the ships on the test server, CCP, pretty please?

...I'm getting tired of re-reading re-hashed old arguments ad nauseum...

...but looking forward to testing the ships on SiSi, yessiree!

Let us stop the speculative arguments and join in hollering at CCP until they relent and make these new toys available for testing!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1890 - 2013-10-22 21:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Kaddiska wrote:

so (and I'm only quoting about a dozen posts here, en masse):
Give us the ships on the test server, CCP, pretty please?
testing!


Rubicon will be returning to the test server on the 23rd. Footage from Chaos indicates that the SoE ships are now finished, so I would expect to see them included.

CCP Habakuk wrote:

With dates (future dates are subject to change):
Oct 21 - Current Sisi (let's call it DB A) is copied to DB B
Oct 23 - Sisi is switched from DB A to DB B
Oct 24 - Mass Test
Oct 29 - Sisi is switched back to DB A


CCP Habakuk wrote:
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Does this mean that the Rubicon features will be deployed back to Sisi only after this DB-test?

No, the Rubicon features will probably be deployed back to Sisi within a few hours of the DB switch (or even at the same time).


Source: This Thread
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1891 - 2013-10-23 06:53:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
HAHA ! Now that's priceless ! Stating that sentry drones have more practical damage application than medium blasters !!

Well, I have nothing else to add. I mean, you greatly enumerate all drawbacks of blasters, very good. Now, please do the same with sentries, and then build a fantasy where the Stratios will always meet all conditions to use full sentry dps but not blaster dps.

Good luck.


Two webs vs. one? I only posted it like 4 times. 15% speed requires 3/8ths the tracking to apply full DPS than 40% speed.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1892 - 2013-10-23 09:29:08 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
HAHA ! Now that's priceless ! Stating that sentry drones have more practical damage application than medium blasters !!

Well, I have nothing else to add. I mean, you greatly enumerate all drawbacks of blasters, very good. Now, please do the same with sentries, and then build a fantasy where the Stratios will always meet all conditions to use full sentry dps but not blaster dps.

Good luck.



like when kiting? The most effective way to fight when you are outnumbered... soemthign you will do a lot in a ship that can sneak in cloaked?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1893 - 2013-10-23 09:30:40 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Didn't CCP recently figure out after years of certain Amarr ships being fitted with autocannons almost exclusively that a cap bonus to a weapon doesn't make it worth fitting when there's an entire type of turret that uses no cap at ll.



You mean after yers of idiots doing it? Because Pulse lasers completely overpower AC when the AC do not have bonuses on them. DO the math, and yes that includes firing on ARMOR resists!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1894 - 2013-10-23 09:37:18 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Two webs vs. one? I only posted it like 4 times. 15% speed requires 3/8ths the tracking to apply full DPS than 40% speed.

medium size LR weapon have 3 times the signature resolution and the same tracking than gardes ; and you are talking about using sentries in scram range perfectly fine ?

Also, sentries don't move. That is considered a real pain in the ass to use them in almost all pvp scenario except now than Heavy Drones are proven to be ineffective on cruisers EFT warriors here discover the OMFGBBQ stats of sentries and start the same insanities with them instead of ogres.

The truth is that blaster ships and medium blasters are a reality on TQ since forever, and a weapon of choice for ganks whereas heavy drones and sentries were always seen as impractical to use in almost any scenario.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#1895 - 2013-10-23 10:53:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You mean after yers of idiots doing it? Because Pulse lasers completely overpower AC when the AC do not have bonuses on them. DO the math, and yes that includes firing on ARMOR resists!!!

Sorry to point this out, but higher paper DPS in EFT doesn't make unbonused lasers better than unbonused autocannons.
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1896 - 2013-10-23 12:26:13 UTC
Can the cruiser have 4 launcher slots as well? As there are no damage bonuses (yet), why are missile users in disadvantage?
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1897 - 2013-10-23 13:48:32 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
HAHA ! Now that's priceless ! Stating that sentry drones have more practical damage application than medium blasters !!

Well, I have nothing else to add. I mean, you greatly enumerate all drawbacks of blasters, very good. Now, please do the same with sentries, and then build a fantasy where the Stratios will always meet all conditions to use full sentry dps but not blaster dps.

Good luck.


And this is the point, for those too thick headed to get it. The high DPS blaster fits of a covert ops proteus is balanced by its need to be dry humping the target to apply it.

It is also interesting to point out that while you can make a workable sentry proteus fit (albeit with only 4 sentries) you cannot do so and also use the covert ops subsystem.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1898 - 2013-10-23 16:56:49 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
And this is the point, for those too thick headed to get it. The high DPS blaster fits of a covert ops proteus is balanced by its need to be dry humping the target to apply it.

It is also interesting to point out that while you can make a workable sentry proteus fit (albeit with only 4 sentries) you cannot do so and also use the covert ops subsystem.

The point is that blasters don't have any problem melting a ship in tiny pieces as long as it can go into scram range.

The second point is that heavy drones and sentries require the same tackling as blasters to apply any meaningful dps, and even then real dps might not be as high as paper dps.

A Stratios won't have any more actual dps than a cloaky Proteus. That is the point I'm making for pages on this thread. And yet, cloaky Proteus are a rarity mostly sticking to cloaky hot drop and wormholes. I bet the Stratios will not be more popular after the initial "new shiny" effect.

And price compared to a Proteus is irrelevant. People roam in combat T3 for years and never needed a cloak to do it. The Stratios will still cost more than any T1 ship and will be among the most expensive cruisers. At this level, price is not a balancing factor.
Ideki
Wolf Brothers INC
United Neopian Federation
#1899 - 2013-10-23 20:12:54 UTC
Did they say anything about how to get them?
From the fact they raised 2 agents to lvl4 I am guessing those are LP Store items.
No ?

Creator of The EVE Planetary Planner
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1900 - 2013-10-23 21:46:26 UTC
Ideki wrote:
Did they say anything about how to get them?
From the fact they raised 2 agents to lvl4 I am guessing those are LP Store items.
No ?


yes