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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Tina Tin Tits
Doomheim
#1141 - 2013-10-21 19:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tina Tin Tits
Nanatoa wrote:


I have an update on this situation:
Nothing has changed :(




Something has changed.

I closed two accounts...
DarkDecay
Real money traders
#1142 - 2013-10-21 19:52:28 UTC
Nanatoa wrote:
Nanatoa wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Nanatoa wrote:
As I said in the Assembly Hall, CCP should at least publicly disclose anything valuable or rare they spawn ingame, if only to make sure the market remains transparent and efficient.


Now, as for the Gold Magnate bait and switch, I'm still waiting for SOMER Blink to return my 16 billion. Posts in their thread have been ignored and ingame messages to Somerset Mahm had no effect, but I still like this organisation with "a solid history of trust and reliability" [CCP Navigator's endorsement, not mine] to honour my refund request. How do I go about this?


Have you petitioned it in game? It was CCP who announced the gold magnates, and it was CCP Navigator who made statements attesting to their honesty and honouring all transactions, and I'm sure that without those statements about what the prize was and how trustworthy the people handling it were you wouldn't have wished to partake and donate that much money to somer


That last part (my bolding) is very true. The only reason I put my 16 billion into SOMER Blink was to get a shot at owning a truly historic vessel, something CCP assured I had a honest chance of winning. I really want this settled and my patience and softspokenness should not be confused with a lack of determiniation or persistence.


I have an update on this situation:
Nothing has changed :(
No word from SOMER Blink. No word from Somerset Mahm. No word from CCP. It's like it's the most trustworthy and reliable thing in the world to announce you're doing something, take money for it, and then not do it.
Now I don't mind scams in EVE, but I do mind CCP actively participating in them. I would never have given SOMER Blink money if not for CCPs announcement and endorsement.


Next steps?

http://eng.innanrikisraduneyti.is/laws-and-regulations/english/lotteries/
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/ (ccp servers are on Uk territory, involved in facilitation of gambling, and this is the appropriate regulatory body)
Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1143 - 2013-10-21 20:32:56 UTC
DarkDecay wrote:
Nanatoa wrote:
Nanatoa wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Nanatoa wrote:
As I said in the Assembly Hall, CCP should at least publicly disclose anything valuable or rare they spawn ingame, if only to make sure the market remains transparent and efficient.


Now, as for the Gold Magnate bait and switch, I'm still waiting for SOMER Blink to return my 16 billion. Posts in their thread have been ignored and ingame messages to Somerset Mahm had no effect, but I still like this organisation with "a solid history of trust and reliability" [CCP Navigator's endorsement, not mine] to honour my refund request. How do I go about this?


Have you petitioned it in game? It was CCP who announced the gold magnates, and it was CCP Navigator who made statements attesting to their honesty and honouring all transactions, and I'm sure that without those statements about what the prize was and how trustworthy the people handling it were you wouldn't have wished to partake and donate that much money to somer


That last part (my bolding) is very true. The only reason I put my 16 billion into SOMER Blink was to get a shot at owning a truly historic vessel, something CCP assured I had a honest chance of winning. I really want this settled and my patience and softspokenness should not be confused with a lack of determiniation or persistence.


I have an update on this situation:
Nothing has changed :(
No word from SOMER Blink. No word from Somerset Mahm. No word from CCP. It's like it's the most trustworthy and reliable thing in the world to announce you're doing something, take money for it, and then not do it.
Now I don't mind scams in EVE, but I do mind CCP actively participating in them. I would never have given SOMER Blink money if not for CCPs announcement and endorsement.


Next steps?

http://eng.innanrikisraduneyti.is/laws-and-regulations/english/lotteries/
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/ (ccp servers are on Uk territory, involved in facilitation of gambling, and this is the appropriate regulatory body)


I would also assume that the UK has laws against bait and switch tactics, which could probably be extended to this case. If you are really determined to do something about this, that might be an avenue worth exploring.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_
Frying Doom
#1144 - 2013-10-21 22:33:19 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
DarkDecay wrote:
By leaving EVE we have affected it in a manner that is very hard for CCP to ignore.

Most places, Money Talks and Bullshit Walks.

In EVE, it's the other way around.

You left out the exceptions like Incarna.

Where Money did talk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#1145 - 2013-10-21 23:24:50 UTC
Kirren D'marr wrote:

I would also assume that the UK has laws against bait and switch tactics, which could probably be extended to this case. If you are really determined to do something about this, that might be an avenue worth exploring.

This has already been tested in US courts (second life+)... I don't know if it's the same in the UK. There's no bait and switch here, and in-game items don't really exist. There are no legal options or risks for CCP. It's just policy. They make the internet spaceship "law" and we follow it or get banned. Just relax and let's wait to hear back from CCP on it. Then you can riot... but a lawsuit would be silly & be dismissed right off the bat, and you'll just end up paying court costs and legal fees.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Nanatoa
#1146 - 2013-10-21 23:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nanatoa
Gogela wrote:
Just relax and let's wait to hear back from CCP on it.


Words of Wisdom. I appreciate the suggestions above, but I honestly don't think that any laws have been broken (or if there have been, that any rl organisation would care enough to enforce them on a lottery with pretend-money for pretend-prizes).
I just think that SOMER Blink and CCP should do the honourable thing and refund my ISK. I participated for the Gold Magnate, said as much before the prizes were changed, protested immediately after the change, in two places, and messaged Somerset Mahm ingame well before the draw took place. She claimed "we had no control / direction over the prizes", which is weird for a lottery run by them, but anyway, in that case CCP should facilitate a refund. Petitions take an awful long time to get answered though.. Meanwhile, as I said, not a single word from SOMER Blink, Somerset Mahm or CCP.

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Frying Doom
#1147 - 2013-10-22 00:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A quick status report from the CSM side.

We had a 30 minute meeting with CCP Dolan on Monday about a CSM initiative to survey the community. The result of that meeting was constructive, and resulted in a 90 minute meeting Tuesday with CCP Dolan, CCP Navigator and CCP Guard.

During the second meeting, it was agreed that the first step in the process of resolving these issues is to get a better read on community opinions about acceptable practices.

To do this, CSM will be running two forum surveys, in a manner similar to our crowdsourcing initiatives. These will focus on Appropriate Fansite Incentives and Acceptable Fansite Business Models, and will be structured in a way that we hope will encourage good debate.

At the same time, CCP will be running identical surveys through their established subscriber survey methods, so that we have data on the opinions of the general community in addition to the forum community.

We are currently working with CCP to finalize the list of survey questions. We hope this will be completed in a few days, and the forum surveys will go live as soon as possible thereafter. However, things may slip a bit because of EVE Vegas.

CSM welcomes your input as we finalize the survey questions. Our current plan is that each question will be a statement, with 4 possible responses: "This is OK", "This is a grey-area", "This should not be allowed", and "I have no opinion".

Here are some sample statements to give you an idea of the style:

Fansite incentives:

* CCP can provide PLEX as prizes for contests on fansites.

* Fansites should receive incentives in proportion to their benefits to the community.

Business Models:

* I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me, they can give me ISK.

* I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me, they can give me real money.

We are particularly interested in questions that explore the grey areas.

Posted on the 16th of October...6 days ago..
Any idea of how long before you release the survey for the CSM side, or does it need to be checked by CCP first?

But in all honesty we should probably relax a little and give them some time..Not that I am saying we should completely quieten down, so they come to believe that these problems all revolving around Somer blink have gone away.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1148 - 2013-10-22 00:58:11 UTC
According to Trebor Daehdoow, the chair of this CSM, in EvE Online "bullshit talks".

I agree with you, Trebor. This is probably one of the few things I agree with you on. After all, had you been any type of competent alongside the members of your little group you [imight[/i] be doing things other than talking and telling us how CCP, the progenitors of being slimy and double-talking MMO developers, will be doing their own survey and we should be able to trust them completely.

T20 showed us exactly how CCP operates wen they think they can't be caught.

Monoclegate showed us that CCP will ignore the playerbase and CSM if it makes them money in the short-term, and then after that money is made and subscriptions are leaving by the thousands they will say, "Oh, we were wrong! Please come back!"

CCP defending Mittens during the "go **** with this guy" debacle until the negative publicity mounted with larger websites showed the favoritism.

CCP's defending of SOMER while kicking people who are doing the same thing to the curb shows favoritism once again.

CCP's inabiltiy to adequately explain to us in a month how violations of the EULA are happening, and their inability to explain to us--let alone succinctly clarify specific portions--really leads me to believe they have no clue what they are doing at this point.

Tell you what: EvE Search maintains the original postings of all forum posts, including blues. We'll keep that going. I'm also going to be screenshotting the EULA as of right now and keeping that with me. Then, when you start banning people for doing what SOMER is doing, they can take you to court and I can provide the evidence to show what the EULA actually said at the time, and your inability, CCP, to explain how and why it is wrong.

Favoritism is a *****.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1149 - 2013-10-22 01:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Anya Klibor wrote:
Then, when you start banning people for doing what SOMER is doing, they can take you to court and I can provide the evidence to show what the EULA actually said at the time, and your inability, CCP, to explain how and why it is wrong.


At which point any lawyer would laugh at you. Bear in mind, there's a 'terminate for any reason' clause in there. CCP have no obligation to do business with you.


The difference with the DNSBlack thing is:

CCP have a legal relationship with the authorized GTC seller. That relationship is not bound by the EULA, but by a different legal document (which we've not seen)
At no point does money pass directly from the GTC buyer to Somer.


Now, I'm not saying that it can't be considered to be RMT. But it's still a different relationship, which a regular player doesn't have.


Something to consider:
People sell starter packs, which give people a bunch of stuff in game. Limited to new characters only, but again, that sale isn't bound by the EULA.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1150 - 2013-10-22 01:55:23 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Then, when you start banning people for doing what SOMER is doing, they can take you to court and I can provide the evidence to show what the EULA actually said at the time, and your inability, CCP, to explain how and why it is wrong.


At which point any lawyer would laugh at you. Bear in mind, there's a 'terminate for any reason' clause in there. CCP have no obligation to do business with you.


The difference with the DNSBlack thing is:

CCP have a legal relationship with the authorized GTC seller. That relationship is not bound by the EULA, but by a different legal document (which we've not seen)
At no point does money pass directly from the GTC buyer to Somer.


Now, I'm not saying that it can't be considered to be RMT. But it's still a different relationship, which a regular player doesn't have.


Something to consider:
People sell starter packs, which give people a bunch of stuff in game. Limited to new characters only, but again, that sale isn't bound by the EULA.


However, if the EULA is proven to not be enforced correctly and in a fair manner, the courts themselves will side with a party that has been wronged. It's fraud.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Maliandra
Doomheim
#1151 - 2013-10-22 02:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Maliandra
It only partially has to do with rarity, CCP.

Our main issue is that you're handing out free ISK to people. Every person who plays this game has to earn their ISK. If they get rewards they almost always earned it too (winning a tournament for instance).

What you are doing by handing out ISK-valued items to third-parties is giving them ISK simply for existing and being a contributor. You know how many people simply exist that help add to the EVE community? HUNDREDS!!!

You recognize that and then talk about "where we draw the line". You draw the line right at the start. You draw the line by not giving away any free ISK, ever, unless it's earned through in-game actions. If you want to have some sort of lottery where you give away things, make it done offically through CCP.

Third party entities use their profits in-game and as such, giving them anything for free created imbalance and unfair gameplay.
Maliandra
Doomheim
#1152 - 2013-10-22 02:32:56 UTC
Also CCP you should understand why people still support your game financially:

We have two choices:
1) Spend our money on a game made by suits who want to milk every cent off us at all costs
2) Spend our money on a game made by nerds who play favorites but still give a crap about the game none the less.

You still shouldn't be proud to be #2 :P. It's not #1 I guess, but whatever..
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1153 - 2013-10-22 03:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
As someone in DNSBlack's thread of awezome wrote,

The Greenmachine Greenmachine wrote:
RIOT COUNT ME IN


REFUSE/RESIST - F*ck Sh*t Up

Chaos A.D.
Tanks on the streets
Confronting police
Bleeding the plebs
Raging crowd
Burning cars
Bloodshed starts
Who'll be alive?!

Chaos A.D.
Army in siege
Total alarm
I'm sick of this
Inside the state
War is created
No man's land
What's this sh*t?!

Refuse/Resist
Refuse

Chaos A.D.
Disorder unleashed
Starting to burn
Starting to lynch
Silence means death
Stand on your feet
Inner fear
Your worst enemy

Refuse/Resist
Refuse/Resist
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1154 - 2013-10-22 05:16:02 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Then, when you start banning people for doing what SOMER is doing, they can take you to court and I can provide the evidence to show what the EULA actually said at the time, and your inability, CCP, to explain how and why it is wrong.


At which point any lawyer would laugh at you. Bear in mind, there's a 'terminate for any reason' clause in there. CCP have no obligation to do business with you.


The difference with the DNSBlack thing is:

CCP have a legal relationship with the authorized GTC seller. That relationship is not bound by the EULA, but by a different legal document (which we've not seen)
At no point does money pass directly from the GTC buyer to Somer.


Now, I'm not saying that it can't be considered to be RMT. But it's still a different relationship, which a regular player doesn't have.


Something to consider:
People sell starter packs, which give people a bunch of stuff in game. Limited to new characters only, but again, that sale isn't bound by the EULA.


However, if the EULA is proven to not be enforced correctly and in a fair manner, the courts themselves will side with a party that has been wronged. It's fraud.



And what, exactly, do you think the courts will do about it?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1155 - 2013-10-22 05:21:09 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Then, when you start banning people for doing what SOMER is doing, they can take you to court and I can provide the evidence to show what the EULA actually said at the time, and your inability, CCP, to explain how and why it is wrong.


At which point any lawyer would laugh at you. Bear in mind, there's a 'terminate for any reason' clause in there. CCP have no obligation to do business with you.


The difference with the DNSBlack thing is:

CCP have a legal relationship with the authorized GTC seller. That relationship is not bound by the EULA, but by a different legal document (which we've not seen)
At no point does money pass directly from the GTC buyer to Somer.


Now, I'm not saying that it can't be considered to be RMT. But it's still a different relationship, which a regular player doesn't have.


Something to consider:
People sell starter packs, which give people a bunch of stuff in game. Limited to new characters only, but again, that sale isn't bound by the EULA.


However, if the EULA is proven to not be enforced correctly and in a fair manner, the courts themselves will side with a party that has been wronged. It's fraud.



And what, exactly, do you think the courts will do about it?


Assuming thousands of dollars are involved per transaction, small claims courts have jurisdiction.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Nobani
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1156 - 2013-10-22 06:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nobani
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
DarkDecay wrote:
By leaving EVE we have affected it in a manner that is very hard for CCP to ignore.

Most places, Money Talks and Bullshit Walks.

In EVE, it's the other way around.


Disagree.

In the infamous "Greed Is Good" memo CCP implied that as long as subscription numbers aren't affected, they don't care.

Which makes a certain kind of sense. Of course, once a policy like that becomes public, it might tend to push people to unsub instead of wait-and-see, since they know wait-and-see may not get a reaction.
Sugar Von MurdererTits
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1157 - 2013-10-22 07:54:26 UTC
So I have about two days left on my account before time runs out. Has CCP actually announced what they plan to do about this or are they still employing the 'ignore it until the problem goes away' tactic? I stopped reading around page 30 or so and glancing through I really can't see anything except some mention of surveys.

I someone could post a quick tl;dr I'd be most appreciative.






P.S. No you can't have my stuff; I already gave it away.
Mra Rednu
Oyonata Gate Defence Force.
#1158 - 2013-10-22 08:07:44 UTC
They were going to to a blog at the end of the first week, then wait until after vegas, now waiting for an unspecified length of time.

They waiting for the dust to settle and a few players to unsub, they will then brush it under the carpet giving a hint that it has : all changed and it won't happen again/ were shocked over the reaction/ most people liked it but it was just a few load mouths which had a problem/' will set up a a council elected by players to make people feel more involved in the proccess and act as a sounding board so stupid idea's by CCP won't happen again/ admit that Navigator was really Somer's ***** all along/ won't roll back this but in the future it will be diferent apart from at times when it will be the same.

But we still expected to just wait and see and trust they will do the right thing, yet the longer these things go on the more time they have to just cover it up and carry on as they like.
Frying Doom
#1159 - 2013-10-22 08:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Sugar Von MurdererTits wrote:
So I have about two days left on my account before time runs out. Has CCP actually announced what they plan to do about this or are they still employing the 'ignore it until the problem goes away' tactic? I stopped reading around page 30 or so and glancing through I really can't see anything except some mention of surveys.

I someone could post a quick tl;dr I'd be most appreciative.






P.S. No you can't have my stuff; I already gave it away.

They are apparently doing a survey and are taking months to resolve the matter.

Funny it does not take them months to stop RMT when it doesn't involve Somer.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
The Legendary Soldier
United.
#1160 - 2013-10-22 09:35:46 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

They are apparently doing a survey and are taking months to NOT resolve the matter.

Funny it does not take them months to stop RMT when it doesn't involve Somer.


There, fixed that for you :p

Need to place a high-sec POS? Premade corps for sale, or your corps standings boosted. Trading since January 2012. Many corps sold/boosted - see my thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63128&find=unread