EVE General Discussion

Just some numbers on the potential magnitude here. Keep in mind these are estimates, based on what I've been told about GTC sales and how much isk goes in and out of SOMER per auction. I used a freighter auction as an example - and clearly their promos and the auction of other items that have different exchange rates change the numbers slightly. I understand that. This is not meant to be presented as fact of how much SOMER has made, but just a thought experiment about what is possible when you deal with the magnitude of isk we are dealing with.

Okay, so a Freighter 'sells' for about 1.6 billion isk (16 x 100 mil tickets) and it cashes out for about 1.3 billion isk in prizes. So one way of looking at this is that SOMER sells 1.3 billion isk for 1.6 billion, managing 300 mil in profit.

So let's go to the auction/raffle:

So 8 GTC's are sold, each for 200 mil isk. Each of these 200 mil isk chunks is used to bid on a freighter. It can be by one, two, three, up to eight different people but the entire freighter is basically bid on with the 200 mil bonus isk. The winner takes the cash out. So of the 1.6 bil put into the tickets, he gets 1.3 bil and SOMER keeps 300 mil.

By the way, notice that at this point the bonus isk is laundered into real isk. Of course people who were smart realized that it was real isk all the time and so I didn't really need to point this out to you - right?

Anyway, back to our example:

As per my prior discussion, SOMER just sold 1.3 billion isk for the cash received for 8 GTC referrals, which I am told is about $1.75 each. This is about 14 dollars for the entire freighter, or 10 dollars per billion isk. Not much at all, not considering PLEX go for about 500 mil (a little low but keeps math easy) for 17 dollars or 34 dollars per bil.

Now, note that SOMER claims on their website to have paid out 1.3 quadrillion isk. The freighter is a 1.3 billion isk payout, so let's just assume SOMER only raffles off freighters. Odd assumption, but since we are dealing in orders of magnitude it can still be used to illustrate how much cash comes into play.

If SOMER stuck with freighters, that means that for the 1.3 quadrillion isk paid out, they have taken in 1.6 quadrillion.

This means SOMER, in the paying out of that 1.3 quadrillion has made approximately 300 trillion isk in profits. Let's assume they only keep 1/3 of it, and pay out the rest to employees and in 'advertising' by sponsoring stuff, and other overhead.

That's 100 trillion isk in profit. At 10 dollars per billion, that is worth $1,000,000.

Now let's assume that SOMER cashes out on 25% of that, and uses the rest to keep their lottery solvent.

That's $250,000 in isk, or for SOMER 25 trillion isk.

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OKAY CCP PAY ATTENTION HERE:

If SOMER sells 25 trillion isk, then that's 25 trillion isk in PLEX that you DO NOT sell. I am assuming that the 200 mil credit doesn't create GTC sales mind you - and that it only encourages people to buy from SOMER. Some have taken issue with this, but I think based on human behavior, I have at least some validity to my argument. And you've explained in your own blogs if I recall, how RMT'ing takes money from the game developer. This is especially true when the only real way to buy isk legally is through CCP.

Anyway, 25 trillion isk.

500 million isk per plex.

50,000 PLEX.

That's $850,000 NOT paid to CCP to buy isk. SOMER makes $250,000. CCP loses $850,000. And that's only if they cash out on 1/4th of 1/3rd of what I estimate their profit to be.

Once again - I don't attest that these are actual numbers. And I admit that the profit has to occur over a long time because someone has to actually BUY the GTC... so it could take years to cash out at this magnitude, but as SOMER grows it will certainly be easier and quicker for them to generate cash.

This is just a little thought experiment about the magnitude of money we are dealing with.

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And I don't really care if CCP buys it. It is not really my job to convince them. However, it raises enough questions that in my mind, for your devs to sit there and extol the virtues of a business that honestly gives nothing of substance to the community, and has the potential to cash out of EVE for over 3 million dollars and who potentially can deprive you of millions in PLEX sales...

For you to not see the risk in calling such an entity 100% trustworthy...

For you to not see the problems with developing a conflict of interest with such an entity...

And for your devs to once again start spewing nonsense about how in their "opinion" this is all okay...

Is honestly (and forgive me) about the single stupidest thing I've ever seen a business and its employees do...

It's crisis management 101 - and you are failing at it.

Every crisis needs a leader - a leader with clarity of thought and vision, a leader who quiets the room, takes charge, makes prompt clear headed decisions and ensures a consistent message and tone. Who is that leader at CCP?

Because the message is muddled, the decisions are dragged out and choices have seemed far from clear headed.

I wish CCP the best in sorting this out. I hope they choose wisely.

o7

I have to correct you, again.

You keep imagining banks are some sort of minority whims, while they have been very popular.
What in the end killed EvE banking is exactly tied to my talks above.

They did not die just because of the egregious scams and fu*k ups. They also died because in the end thanks to the innatural ultra massive ISK faucets their debtors stopped caring to go the extra mile to get 1-2B worth of loans. 1 day of Incursions => done. Same for their tellers (always a very scarce resource in those banks): they stopped caring to teller, they could grind some faucets and get in a day what they'd make in a long, thankless week as teller. Banks could not afford raising their pay because that was incompatible with their revenue.

The same destiny made obsolete other meta-professions. After years as auditor, I stopped doing it. Earning 50M for 10-14 hours of work? And put reputation on the line at every audit? NO WAY.
These days I refuse to move a finger for below 500M and people pay it because now the economy has been flooded and corrupted by too long lasting ISK fountains and also by RMT capitalizing on those.




CCP implemented scam limitations - both "mechanical" and policy based - on a number of EvE activities (policies on donations and characters selling come immediately to mind). CCP are already "the government", including ECB (EvE Central Bank). The opt in trustworthiness can be implemented by few lines of EULA (i.e. all those opting in are held completely accountable i.e. about scamming for period A to B (stated in advance, periods visible in the bio) and all their accounts will be perma banned if they scam. Furthermore only accounts owned for more than 3 years may be eligible for this. So they face a real loss in case of opted in policy breach.

This does not require any special "government" or "change in EvE's free morality foundations" and so on.

Then the banks in eve were never really alive. "Real" banks would be able to hire people, to provide all spectre of services and still make enough money to pay good salaries plus high profits for the owners.
The reason - no trust. People en masse won't trust banks if nobody can guarantee that they won't be robbed. And banks can't give out credits to people because nothing can get their money back if a client decides to keep the money.


If ccp will overwatch all the deals and guarantee flawless work of crediting system - it will be nothing like a sandbox. It will be a damn kindergarden for 25+ year old capsuleers. In a "harsh and dark place" like New Eden, pfff.
In eve such things must be operated by capsuleers, not the "godly hand" of ccp. Who would want to play Eve in which players can't make their own rules and break rules of other people? Ability to create and break is essential here.

p.s.
Also, really working banks would provide so much power to the owners that they could manipulate nullsec politics, and such power always draws attention of people. If "banking game" in eve wasn't interesting above few billions of profit, it wasn't working as it should. And there is an obvious reason - absence of law. And in a sandbox game it's very difficult to create sandbox-style instruments to make and maintain law. That's what I was talking about earlier.

A credit card bought titan is as bad as a PLEX bought titan.

I can also say that 2010 L4 missioning and then incursions running were really a lot of fun and positive and fostered production and investments. Incursions I can say they fostered human relations etc. etc.

Yet they were nerfed a ton (and too late).

The ability to $$$ purchase the way to null sec competitivity might look fair and positive to you but it's not. Said by someone who could buy his personal fleet of supercaps (i.e. it's not an "have not rant").




No, the root of the problem is being able to purchase competitivity and advantage.
Which is REALLY the topic of the threads created in these days, including this one.

People just don't place Somer and other forms of sanctioned RMT on the same level, expecially as sanctioned RMT make them accomplices to a RL money driven environment that helps the smarter ones "pay for free" (despite the others $$$ buying PLEX pay more than subbing).




A city quarter is not a meme. And using Google is not beyond EvE general player's capability.




Creating these policies is a testament to recognizing that many potential EvE players are not available to stand those villains. CCP tones them down in hope those new players will learn and enjoy enough of the game to keep playing it *despite* those scums. Which in turn proves that:

- the villains are not positive to the game, not a "great experience" or an asset. Otherwise CCP would not ban them from those areas. They "prepare" new players to stand those villains later, that's hardly a testament to how those villains are positive for the game.

- that my earlier writing about SC players asking for SC to be different vs EvE in this point has a sense.




No, you are the one going the easy way and people even liked some of your posts.
You are embellishing the popular choice: buy PLEX, talk about how good super-blob-caps are and so on.

I, as usual, am going against the current and think outside of the herd.

A portion of the "some people grind ISK" consist of botters and RMTers.
A "just an instrument for people to exchange time for money" IS RMT.
Time is the scarcest and most expensive commodity in the world (not gold, not diamonds) and buying massive time shortcuts is a GREAT imbalance in a sandbox compeititve game. Be it sanctioned by CCP or not.

Imagine this: a guy diligently playing will take 3-4 years to get into his first titan and will shake at the very thought of losing it (thus also somewhat dictating a prudent game play).

A RMTer or even just one of many "new riches" will buy both a titan pilot and ship and does not even grow attached to them. Sure losing it stings but hey, they can afford it without "wasting time" (the real reason MMOs companies exist: make people pay for a long time with long term objectives). His gameplay will be more aggressive and showoff.

I'm really kicking myself for not investing in popcorn last week.

Yes, CCP please prove us that you are still worth of our trust.

Prove to be the greatest MMO company out there: a company that can admit a mistake, take their responsibility and work towards mending it.

If so, you CCP would leave this situation stronger in our eyes than before you put yourself in this mess.

I think I finally understand what this "gray area" is. It's the area that only SOMER and other affiliates may inhabit. It's the part of the EULA that does not apply to them like it does to us.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=287581&find=unread

I actually agree. There are steps CCP could take now that would indicate they realize the gravity of the situation, and they are serious about fixing it.

But, unfortunately, I have seen absolutely no indication that this is, or will be, the case. Their efforts thus far have been to preserve their ability to repeat the mistakes and to downplay what has already happened. All while displaying continued favoritism by allowing SOMER to do an RMT process that others have been threatened with bans for attempting.

Something like "We realize we broke the sandbox, and we want to do whatever we have to do to fix it."

From the responses we have been getting, I'm not sure many of the CCP employees even know what a sandbox game is...

Personally I think they could unbury them selves by proving that they are still an unbiased provider.

I think the other thing they are forgetting is that this is no a free to play game where this sort of thing might slide better, we pay for this game and I don't think people will continue to want to if they show that it is one rule for most people and a different set of rules for others.

Personally I think too much will be put on this survey as if it comes back with results that say "The community has said Somer can keep getting billions of isk in gifts and continue to RMT" then people will just call bull on the whole thing and CCP can hardly argue as to why the results are correct as they have already shown their favoritism and the fact they will bend the rules for Somer Blink.

The shame is that after the Incarna disaster they were starting to earn back the trust of the players. Sure their customer service skills make telephone companies look good by comparison but the trust was coming back.

And then they once again threw it all away, and frankly for what? Money, the increased sales of GTCs. So once again we are back to the whole greed is good thing.

What strikes me is odd is that they haven't realized that improving their customer service and showing them selves to be a trust worthy company, keeping the promises they make to its paying customers (or just not making stupid announcements) would actually get them more money in the end than these 'Get rich quick schemes"