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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1041 - 2013-10-18 18:13:58 UTC
Question!

If most people don't bother to read the forums (for whatever reason), then why would they answer a questionnaire or survey done by the CSM/CCP?

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Shai 'Hulud
#1042 - 2013-10-18 18:16:05 UTC
It seems CCP only lets certain players/organizations do RMT. Why am I not surprised?

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Shai 'Hulud
#1043 - 2013-10-18 18:18:02 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Question!

If most people don't bother to read the forums (for whatever reason), then why would they answer a questionnaire or survey done by the CSM/CCP?

CCP is hunting for the data they want, they already know how the community feels about favoritism. The CSM was created due to issues of favoritism.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1044 - 2013-10-18 18:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Anya Klibor
It goes hand-in-hand.

A lot of players do not read the forums for whatever reason (forums are dens for trolls, it's useless, etc.), and so outside of the game rarely will a player take advantage of other things. How many surveys are actually answered? I read the forums daily and I'll be the first to admit that I don't fill out a single survey. Partially because I'm lazy, and partially because I do plenty of other things in-game and out of it that it shouldn't matter. What I say on a survey (that, generally speaking, is very narrow in the scope of what data they want collected) is not necessarily what I do in-game.

As I stated before, a survey is narrowly defined. It will not have questions with answers the surveying party doesn't want to see. It is most likely not going to touch on the actual issues that are plaguing this, but side issues. It is going to obfuscate the problems so that CCP can come back and say, "Well, you all said it was okay, so **** off!"

The survey is not the way to go, period. It is only the way when you want a specific outcome, and it's why it's not considered valid under normal circumstances. You can also pick and choose who sees the survey and answers it. You insult our intelligence by thinking otherwise and trying to force it on us.

Grow a pair, Trebor. You have done nothing of note--nothing of note-isince taking over chair of the CSM. You are not leading the charge on fixing the issue, the community is. You'll be along for the ride, and then harp on next season about how you single-handedly slayed the jabberwocky and saved Narnia. I'm just going to save your posts now so I can link them to show how much of a backbone you lack.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1045 - 2013-10-18 18:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3755340#post3755340

CCP Phantom wrote:
Offering a (small) ISK bonus for doing community work in a provable way is from my personal perspective fine. Please note that this is my personal opinion and not official ruling.


Please tell us more about your personal opinions. Exactly how many and which other CCP employees share such opinion? Also what kind of actions were done to favor such refined judgement?
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1046 - 2013-10-18 18:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
raven666wings wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3755340#post3755340

CCP Phantom wrote:
Offering a (small) ISK bonus for doing community work in a provable way is from my personal perspective fine. Please note that this is my personal opinion and not official ruling.


Please tell us more about your personal opinions. Exactly how many and which other CCP employees share such opinion?



Somebody did an oopsie!

Seriously, I am not even sure what this means. Maybe I misunderstood.

I am assuming, since we are talking about SOMER, that you are saying that giving an isk bonus with a GTC sale is acceptable to you? But maybe I misunderstood, maybe you mean giving some isk to people who do community work.

Please, we'd love for you to clarify your 'opinion'.
Shai 'Hulud
#1047 - 2013-10-18 18:28:22 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Offering a (small) ISK bonus for doing community work in a provable way is from my personal perspective fine. Please note that this is my personal opinion and not official ruling.

TL;DR = we like SOMER, the rules are different for you.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1048 - 2013-10-18 18:30:17 UTC
I think what it comes down to is if the person is directly selling the item or "raffling" it. Even if they already have it set that their buddy will win it--or someone specific will win--as long as it appears to be a raffle it gets around the EULA.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1049 - 2013-10-18 18:31:47 UTC
DarkDecay wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3755340#post3755340

Another ccp post on this topic.


From that post:

Quote:
It is strictly forbidden to sell, offer or in any other way advertise the sale of in-game items for real money.

Obfuscating this fact by constructing complex cases that are not in the slightest relevant to any current practice can be considered trolling at best, direct RMT at worst.


It sounds to me like CCP Phantom just stated that SOMER Blink's activities are "direct RMT at worst," as obfuscating the process with multiple steps apparently does not change or excuse the act.

Quote:
Offering a (small) ISK bonus for doing community work in a provable way is from my personal perspective fine. Please note that this is my personal opinion and not official ruling.


Unless somehow CCP is arguing that the purchase of GTC's is somehow "community work," which would make absolutely no sense to me. I'm assuming that this phrase was referring to practices similar to EVE news sites' use of ISK to pay players for writing articles, etc.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_
Shai 'Hulud
#1050 - 2013-10-18 18:33:54 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
I think what it comes down to is if the person is directly selling the item or "raffling" it. Even if they already have it set that their buddy will win it--or someone specific will win--as long as it appears to be a raffle it gets around the EULA.

They are claiming it HAS to be done through the affiliate program ... aka you have to make a website to do RMT.

Convenient they draw the line such that SOMER is fine (at least while they discuss it)

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Sean DT
Revered Mining Corp
#1051 - 2013-10-18 18:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean DT
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Sean DT wrote:
1. A survey result is only as good as its interpretation and many questions can be interpreted differently both by the survey maker (CSM/CCP) and by the players answering the question.

We are working hard so that the surveys address this issue. Typically if there is a question "Is X OK?" there will be questions such as "Is X+A OK?", "Is X+B OK?", is "X+A+B OK?" and so on.

Quote:
2. If you need a suvey now when does it stop? Does the CSM then need a player-base-wide survey every time they have to deal with the CCP?

No, not every time. But this is an important issue, and it's worth taking the time to drill down on the issues. As I said previously, data trumps opinions.

Quote:
3. You have 40+ pages in this thread, granted with quit a bit of repetitive opinions, some hysteria/rage, but ultimately with a clear indication of the problem at hand and suggestions for its solution by many many different voices, not just a few repeaters. I as a normal player have read through the majority of this entire stack of posts and the least I expect from the CSM is that they do that too even if it isn't much fun. Grab a cold beer, bring in a box of cookies, and start reading. Make sure you take a pee break and have a smoke, then come back. Use a pen and a paper to note down the key points of the most interesting posts (there are several in between). Now you don't need the survey.

I hope that when you do the survey yourself, you will find that it has been designed to shed further light on the topic in an organized way.

Quote:
4. A lot of people are not going to answer a survey, it will get lost in the mail.

CCP has lots of experience doing email surveys, they know the response rates, they know about multiple accounts, etc. The data from an email survey won't be perfect, but it will be more representative of the general community, as opposed to the active forum community. I'd like data from both groups.

Feel free to continue pushing for a fast resolution. If you get one, it will be one you won't like, because that's the easy option.


Alright, I didn't quite hear what I had hoped but nevertheless thanks for taking time to let me know your thoughts on the different points! :)

Also I have not been pushing for a fast/immediate response so not quite sure what the final comment was about. I most definitely prefer well-thought-out reactions! Blink My main point was that I think the CSM council is the way to deal with this, not a survey, and that the collective CSM should be able to come up with an opinion about this issue as they have been elected to do. But if you really love surveys then so be it I guess, I just don't think it's the way to go on this particular matter.
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1052 - 2013-10-18 18:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
He means that if you keep pushing for a fast response they'll just tell you to f*ck off and you won't like it because they're gonna let Somer Blink continue to RMT alone anyway.
The rest of the playerbase won't like it aswell and massive discontent/ account unsubs will happen. Which seems an adequate measure to be taken when confronted with the confirmation of favoritism. So they rather try to mantain this in the "grey area" to not risk losing subs.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1053 - 2013-10-18 18:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Sean DT wrote:


Also I have not been pushing for a fast/immediate response so not quite sure what the final comment was about. I most definitely prefer well-thought-out reactions! Blink



And even if you had been (pushing), which honestly most folks have been rather patient - but even if you have been , then so what?

CCP's job is to get it right despite the pressure. Sorry, but I expect better out of this company. If a company's response to pressure is to respond with a solution that customers don't like because it's easy and/or spiteful - then they don't deserve to be in business.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1054 - 2013-10-18 18:45:12 UTC
I was taught grey areas should be stayed away from. You'd be surprised how often courts come down and kick businesses in the balls for practices that are "grey".

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1055 - 2013-10-18 18:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Anya Klibor wrote:
I was taught grey areas should be stayed away from. You'd be surprised how often courts come down and kick businesses in the balls for practices that are "grey".



"Gray Area" is a term often thrown about by people lacking ethical clarity and courage. This is why it comes back to haunt folks - because they end up being 'not so gray after all' when looked at logically.
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1056 - 2013-10-18 18:51:52 UTC
I was taught only reach fo tha heat if you bustin'.. so when I lift tis shirt that'z the end of discussion... LolLolLol

Woot Woot
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1057 - 2013-10-18 19:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
The situation as it stands at the moment:

  • Shai Hulud's and Dark Decay's threads were locked by CCP Phantom using the following message:

    • CCP Phantom wrote:

    Quoting the EVE Online Terms of Service:
    ___

    10. You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items.

    ___

    Also note the following explanation:

    ___

    2. Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP.
    ___


    This means, if you try to sell in-game items, for example a 30 day PLEX, for real money, you violate the TOS.

    If you want to become an authorized ETC reseller, please contact the CCP Customer Support via support@eveonline.com.


    Please note that RMT attempts can swiftly lead to permanent forum and permanent in-game bans.

    which claims to deem their raffles illegitimate due to the rafflers not being authorized GTC wholesale sellers (so that means that if they were authorized GTC wholesale sellers, the raffle would have been legitimate and could have carried on).



    DNSBlack's thread however still remains unlocked and got this post by CCP Dolan:

    CCP Dolan wrote:
    Greetings,

    Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP. We are currently investigating if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted. We appreciate your patience while we investigate this matter.

    which does not illegitimize DNSBlack's raffle at the moment, (does not say if he is an authorized wholesale seller or not) but states that an investigation is being carried to verify "if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted".

    Therefore an arbitrary interpretation of the rules and action duality is present, unless DNSBlack is an autorized GTC wholesale seller (in which case CCP Dolan's mentioned investigation does not apply to him). If he is not a wholesale reseller his thread and raffle should have been shutdown according to the policy used to shutdown Shai Hulud's and Dark Decay's threads/raffles.
    Gogela
    Epic Ganking Time
    CODE.
    #1058 - 2013-10-18 19:49:10 UTC
    Chiimera wrote:
    SHENANIGANS!

    OK. People of CCP, do you accept this decree of shenanigans?

    I'll go get my broom.... Big smile

    Signatures should be used responsibly...
    Money Makin Mitch
    Paid in Full
    #1059 - 2013-10-18 19:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
    raven666wings wrote:
    The situation as it stands at the moment:

  • Shai Hulud's and Dark Decay's threads were locked by CCP Phantom using the following message:

    • CCP Phantom wrote:

    Quoting the EVE Online Terms of Service:
    ___

    10. You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items.

    ___

    Also note the following explanation:

    ___

    2. Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP.
    ___


    This means, if you try to sell in-game items, for example a 30 day PLEX, for real money, you violate the TOS.

    If you want to become an authorized ETC reseller, please contact the CCP Customer Support via support@eveonline.com.


    Please note that RMT attempts can swiftly lead to permanent forum and permanent in-game bans.

    which claims to deem their raffles illegitimate due to the rafflers not being authorized GTC wholesale sellers (so that means that if they were authorized GTC wholesale sellers, the raffle would have been legitimate and could have carried on).



    DNSBlack's thread however still remains unlocked and got this post by CCP Dolan:

    CCP Dolan wrote:
    Greetings,

    Any form of ETC trading outside of the CCP created system is not permitted or supported by CCP. We are currently investigating if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted. We appreciate your patience while we investigate this matter.

    which doesnt not illegitimize DNSBlack's raffle at the moment, (does not say if he is an authorized wholesale seller or not) but states that an investigation is being carried to verify "if the sort of ETC resale (resale by an unauthorized reseller) is permitted".

    Therefore an arbitrary interpretation of the rules and action duality is present, unless DNSBlack is an autorized GTC wholesale seller (and Shai Hulud/D(in which case CCP Dolan's mentioned investigation does not apply to him).


    apparently he has to be an authorized wholesale reseller Roll

    it's almost like they are making this **** up as they go along
    Anya Klibor
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1060 - 2013-10-18 20:07:12 UTC
    Unfortunately this gets worse before it gets better. And by "gets better" I mean "stops being a complete ****-up", not "we get it and can now play the game feeling tons better". Why is it CCP Dolan and CCP Phantom are coming and telling us about violations of the EULA/TOS, but miraculously can't validate why X is legal, when X+1 is the exact same thing but isn't legal?

    Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.