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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Konrad Kane
#1001 - 2013-10-18 14:24:47 UTC
I've done some maths. Black would need to sel...erm...raffle four characters per year to cover his fanfest bar tab.

PLEX for jagerbombs the man is a genius - the legend lives on.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1002 - 2013-10-18 14:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
CCP Falcon wrote:
Moving your thread is not endorsement, it's making sure that it's in the correct forum for the topic.

Discussion is still ongoing internally regarding this kind of practice.

Reference to any endorsement of this by CCP Staff have been removed until an decision is made regarding it rather than misinformation.

Don't put words in my mouth in future.



I told DNSBlack to stop putting things in my mouth too. He refuses to listen.
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1003 - 2013-10-18 14:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Handsome Feller
DNSBLACK wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:
DarkDecay, I know, however there are additional rules regarding Character sale when compared to any other type. That's my point and if CCP so chooses, they could use those additional rules to justify wielding their mighty pork sword. hence why I said it's a shame that dns didn't do it with an iScorp and not a character as that pitches players into the potential "legal" rmt.


Do me a favor and show me the evidence. Build your case against me I would love to hear it.


OK, first do me a favour and read this to understand where I'm coming from. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752651#post3752651

I can't be arsed to spend more than 5 minutes on this, so here goes.

CCP Rules from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6369&find=unread

17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.

Some preemptions:

Please don't argue semantics. It's up to CCP to decide what they mean by their rules. Example: Raffle is probably encompassed under "lottery style" etc. etc. Semantics Shemantics. It's CCP's rules.


Evidence from your post here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3750771#post3750771 with some iterations by me.

2. Thru this web site and forum post I had interested people inquire about my raffle.
You're holding a lottery. You MUST enter the lottery in order to "win" the character.

3. Player X purchased a 1 /60 day GTC off of DNS Corp for $2500.00 dollars. I used Pay Pal proxy service for all money exchange. Cost of GTC was 30.00 dollars. For buying my GTC I gave him $2470 DNS Credits.
You receive a Real Money Transfer. The buyer receives, among other things, lottery tickets. Real money HAS to be paid in order to receive lottery ticket.

... stuff ... (loved point 6 btw)

11. I then pick the winning ticket live on Twitch TV and player X won.
You pick the winning ticket from your lottery style thingamy-.

... stuff ...

14. I will be transferring the character IE DNSBlack to his new owner over the next 3 days.
The person who purchased the winning ticket (among other things) from you gets the character.

A succinct "black box" summary of your process:

Input = Real Money Transfer to you.
Process = A lottery style game for those who paid you money. No money, no lottery ticket.
Output = Transfer of character to Person who paid real life money for the winning lottery ticket (+ other things).

Again, CCP's rules:

Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a character.

What you did was neither an auction or a buyout but exceptionally close to being "lottery style". That's why here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752755#post3752755 I said:

Quote:
It's a shame that dnsblack didn't make his point by selling say, an iScorp (lovely irony!) using this method as things would get really interesting. As it is, CCP could, if they so choose to, easily justify a ban hammer and bio mass due to it being a character sale.


AFAIK, CCP don't have the lottery rule for other stuff, just characters.

Good luck and if CCP manage to make their T's & C's bullet proof because of this, I'll buy you a pint or 2. Think I'm safe there!

Edit: Formatting and gosh darn it, that took 7 minutes.
Frying Doom
#1004 - 2013-10-18 14:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
See below his post is better.Smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1005 - 2013-10-18 15:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Handsome Feller wrote:
OK, first do me a favour and read this to understand where I'm coming from. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752651#post3752651.


Money Makin Mitch wrote:
he didn't lotto the character. he lotto'ed a chance to bid on the character.


You're missing the point. Just like MMMitch told you before, he didn't directly raffle the character, he raffled a chance to get a Buyout on it. So he didn't sell it using a Lottery, he still sold it using an Auction and Buyout in the Character Bazaar forum section, just like the normal procedure endorsed by CCP for character exchange. The object of the raffle being a character buyout, plexes, ships or isk doesn't matter according to Somer Blink, Eve-Games.net and other unsanctioned in-game item raffling conducts, as long as they're all transferred by the CCP designated trading mechanisms.
Mordachai
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#1006 - 2013-10-18 15:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mordachai
A) Will the outcome of those surveys be presented to the public ?

B) How will people get to know about those surveys if they arent forum warriors ?
(maybe eve-mail the whole community like ccp did with the CSM voting)

C) Will the changes(if any) just come as a tiny fine print in the EULA that nobody reads or will it be announced so people will know about it?
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1007 - 2013-10-18 15:18:21 UTC
raven666wings wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:
OK, first do me a favour and read this to understand where I'm coming from. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3752651#post3752651.


Money Makin Mitch wrote:
he didn't lotto the character. he lotto'ed a chance to bid on the character.


You're missing the point. Just like MMMitch told you before, he didn't directly raffle the character, he raffled a chance to get a Buyout on it. So he didn't sell it using a Lottery, he still sold it using an Auction and Buyout in the Character Bazaar forum section, just like the normal procedure endorsed by CCP for character exchange. The object of the raffle being a character buyout, plexes, ships or isk doesn't matter according to Somer Blink, Eve-Games.net and other unsanctioned in-game item raffling conducts, as long as they're all tranferred by the CCP designated trading mechanisms.


You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:


  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Receive chance of getting a character


Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1008 - 2013-10-18 15:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Handsome Feller wrote:

You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:


  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Receive chance of getting a character


Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.


You're still missing the point. They aren't "hiding behind details". They are using the same procedure used by Somer Blink and others that has not only been unsanctioned, but also supported and advertised by CCP.
Frying Doom
#1009 - 2013-10-18 15:21:48 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:


You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:


  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Receive chance of getting a character


Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.

You know that looks a lot like

  • Buy GTC get bonus credit
  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Transfer credit into isk

But that can't be right as that would be RMT and that is expressly forbidden under the EULALol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#1010 - 2013-10-18 15:25:08 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:


You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:


  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Receive chance of getting a character


Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.

You know that looks a lot like

  • Buy GTC get bonus credit
  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Transfer credit into isk

But that can't be right as that would be RMT and that is expressly forbidden under the EULALol

careful, you might make his head spin P
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1011 - 2013-10-18 15:26:51 UTC
raven666wings wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:

You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:


  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Receive chance of getting a character


Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.


You're still missing the point. They aren't "hiding behind details". They are using the same procedure used by Somer Blink and others that has not only been unsanctioned, but also supported and advertised by CCP.


No I'm not missing the point. I understand that. You are missing what I have been pointing out all along. Character transfers / sales have different rules to ships etc.

Show me where Somer Blink has held a lottery for a character.
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1012 - 2013-10-18 15:28:45 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:


You're hiding behind details. Details which CCP are more than free to ignore when the inputs and outputs boils down to this:


  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Receive chance of getting a character


Add as many steps & details in between as you like, but it breaks down the same. Must buy lottery ticket to get character.

You know that looks a lot like

  • Buy GTC get bonus credit
  • Buy Lottery Tickets
  • Transfer credit into isk

But that can't be right as that would be RMT and that is expressly forbidden under the EULALol


17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a Attentioncharacter.Attention

Not sure I can do any more than that.
Shai 'Hulud
#1013 - 2013-10-18 15:28:49 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
This thread is being moved to the Ingame Events and Gatherings sub-forum.

Our customer support team is also in the process of reviewing this particular style of raffle to ensure it conforms with our rules and policies.

Smile



CCP Falcon wrote:
Moving your thread is not endorsement, it's making sure that it's in the correct forum for the topic.

Right. Allowing his raffle to proceed to it's completion was in no way an endorsement Roll

By admitting that you are reviewing these practices, you acknowledged it is not currently considered a rules violation. If it was, you would shut down SOMER's RMT and you wouldn't need to have a ******* discussion.

The clock is ticking CCP... our balls are in your court.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1014 - 2013-10-18 15:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Handsome Feller wrote:

No I'm not missing the point. I understand that. You are missing what I have been pointing out all along. Character transfers / sales have different rules to ships etc.

Show me where Somer Blink has held a lottery for a character.


Yes, once again you are still missing the point, and I advise you to read the full thread before making such comments.

They do indeed have different rules - and that difference is in the means of selling and transfer (in-game vs character bazaar forum section) - which doesn't mean DNSBlack didn't follow them. He sold the character according to the CCP designated means for character sales/transfers. Somer Blink might indeed have not raffled buyouts for character sales but they could do it, as long as they use the same CCP designated character bazaar forum section to transfer them.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#1015 - 2013-10-18 15:31:46 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
This thread is being moved to the Ingame Events and Gatherings sub-forum.

Our customer support team is also in the process of reviewing this particular style of raffle to ensure it conforms with our rules and policies.

Smile



CCP Falcon wrote:
Moving your thread is not endorsement, it's making sure that it's in the correct forum for the topic.

Right. Allowing his raffle to proceed to it's completion was in no way an endorsement Roll

By admitting that you are reviewing these practices, you acknowledged it is not currently considered a rules violation. If it was, you would shut down SOMER's RMT and you wouldn't need to have a ******* discussion.

The clock is ticking CCP... our balls are in your court.

now that the equation has changed, i no longer care how long CCP takes to formulate their response... winter is coming, but til then, get those raffles up Twisted
raven666wings
Cyber Chaos Crew
#1016 - 2013-10-18 15:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: raven666wings
Handsome Feller wrote:

17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a Attentioncharacter.Attention

Not sure I can do any more than that.


Well. you got stuck in the same point and getting repetitive now, besides people already having explained to you why you're wrong. I hope you didn't get brain damage of some sort.

Not sure It will help repeating this to you again:

raven666wings wrote:
You're missing the point. Just like MMMitch told you before, he didn't directly raffle the character, he raffled a chance to get a Buyout on it. So he didn't sell it using a Lottery, he still sold it using an Auction and Buyout in the Character Bazaar forum section, just like the normal procedure endorsed by CCP for character exchange. The object of the raffle being a character buyout, plexes, ships or isk doesn't matter according to Somer Blink, Eve-Games.net and other unsanctioned in-game item raffling conducts, as long as they're all tranferred by the CCP designated trading mechanisms.
Frying Doom
#1017 - 2013-10-18 15:39:17 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:


17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a Attentioncharacter.Attention

Not sure I can do any more than that.

Maybe list the part in the EULA where it states that rather than in the rules for a forum would be a good start.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1018 - 2013-10-18 15:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Handsome Feller
raven666wings wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:

No I'm not missing the point. I understand that. You are missing what I have been pointing out all along. Character transfers / sales have different rules to ships etc.

Show me where Somer Blink has held a lottery for a character.


Yes, once again you are still missing the point, and I advise you to read the full thread before making such comments.

They do indeed have different rules - and that difference is in the means of selling and transfer (in-game vs character bazaar forum section) - which doesn't mean DNSBlack didn't follow them. He sold the character according to the CCP designated means for character sales/transfers. Somer Blink might indeed have not raffled buyouts for character sales but they could do it, as long as they use the same CCP designated character bazaar forum section to transfer them.


You're going round in circles. No point continuing. It's summarised thusly:

I suggest CCP can say that holding lottery that you must enter in order to be able to buy a character is flouting the no "lottery style" rule when buying characters.

You say, He's doing exactly the same as Somer (which he isn't because *character*) or it doesn't matter because there are additional steps between lottery and character buying.

The End.

Edit: Just saw your last reply :-)
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1019 - 2013-10-18 15:45:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Handsome Feller
Frying Doom wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:


17. Lottery style sales are not permitted. Auctions and buyouts are the appropriate method for selling a Attentioncharacter.Attention

Not sure I can do any more than that.

Maybe list the part in the EULA where it states that rather than in the rules for a forum would be a good start.


But you'll still equate the rules / Ts&Cs around ship lotteries to the rules for selling a character because that's what you've done thus far. I can't help you anymore until you realize that CCP treat these things differently.
Crash Course
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1020 - 2013-10-18 15:48:08 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Moving your thread is not endorsement, it's making sure that it's in the correct forum for the topic.

Discussion is still ongoing internally regarding this kind of practice.

Reference to any endorsement of this by CCP Staff have been removed until an decision is made regarding it rather than misinformation.

Don't put words in my mouth in future.



I told DNSBlack to stop putting things in my mouth too. He refuses to listen.


Don't talk with your mouth full