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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#381 - 2013-10-17 21:05:02 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?

i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that


the prices will definitely drop, mostly because the giant carebear alliances who supply 90%+ of the moon goo (of which goonswarm is one example) will see their operations crumble.

this will make it more worth it to moon mine in general, but people will have to do it carefully to make a good profit, not just plant a fuckload of moon mining ops and nearly forget about them....like goonswarm.....



So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.

This is some MD level analysis right here.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Zappity
Kurved Trading
#382 - 2013-10-17 21:05:18 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.


Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance.

As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy.

But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.


You are assuming I haven't see how well it helps us. We have known for quite some time our endgame in T2. This only accelerates it and probably lines our pockets more than anyone's in EVE by far. We control most of the r64s and by extension the T2 market.

I am telling CCP in good faith this is not balanced. This design is bad, if you go down this path it is bad for EVE. It doesn't mean it is bad for our wallet. The very nature of this change as presented pretty much assures we make more ISK because the people that do manage to control their goo will profit greatly. That will be us.

This will become a mass manip tool not some individual guerrilla mechanic. You made things so cheap you don't even need to GET the goo, just spam and laugh as huge portions of supply dies.


You talk too much, Aryth.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#383 - 2013-10-17 21:06:08 UTC
this is what i can gather goons will do...

they have a huge stock pile of moon mins

they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.

so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...

so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Krios Ahzek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2013-10-17 21:06:21 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.


Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.




Yes. We're already making mad money. We are warning you that this will help us make even more money and make you scream in impotent rage. We are telling you this because it is way more hilarious if you have actually been well and duly warned.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2013-10-17 21:06:30 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.


Seems to me that there is risk to deploying these things even if not a potent risk. I have not read anywhere in this thread a need to improve automated POS response times. Not likely to happen.


Haha no sorry the only way there's risk is if you literally sit there and let the POS shoot you, or try to deploy these with a freighter.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#386 - 2013-10-17 21:06:57 UTC
i meant prices will go up obviously. ill edit it, just for you, because you can't understand context and how neither of those paragraphs make sense without flipping a single word.

there.

now you can respond (cry) to the actual post, instead of nit picking semantics.

boo hoo, goonswarm.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#387 - 2013-10-17 21:07:04 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
gascanu wrote:
this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space";
.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be.


you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?
Krios Ahzek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#388 - 2013-10-17 21:09:20 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
this is what i can gather goons will do...

they have a huge stock pile of moon mins

they know that even if the collect 0 of the mins there is going to be an automatic 20% loss just off the bat.

so that means they are going to try and reduce the moon mins by 20% which means that demand will go up and they have the supply...

so that is the only way i can see goons making loads of isk from this



Thanks for restating everything Aryth and Mynnna are already telling everyone.

If we mercilessly siphon every R64 moon in the universe that isn't ours, and we lose some R64s to enemy siphon, all while toying with the R64 markets since months ago, there's no way we aren't making trillions and annihilating affordable T2 prices.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#389 - 2013-10-17 21:10:14 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively.


Only if you're working under the dubious assumption that a small group is like a large group, but smaller.
Krios Ahzek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#390 - 2013-10-17 21:10:29 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
gascanu wrote:
this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space";
.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be.


you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?


We can double all the T2 ship prices.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#391 - 2013-10-17 21:13:30 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
gascanu wrote:
this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space";
.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be.


you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?


We can double all the T2 ship prices.


you can do that right now;
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#392 - 2013-10-17 21:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


Starbase weapons are a relic from the old days of EVE; when Dreadnoughts had 80k EHP and Tech 2 ships were flown by a small number of rich pilots. They've never been reviewed since.

Here are some facts I find amusing:


  • The targeting delay on POS weapons allows anything battleship-sized (or smaller) time to land on grid, drop an item, and align out again before being targeted. Smaller guns may get off a volley, but they do about less DPS than a modern frigate so who cares. Webs and points cannot lock in time.

  • With the warp speed changes in Rubicon, it will be possible for cruiser-sized ships and below to align out from a POS, warp to a gate and jump out of system before a warp disruption battery will finish a lock. Yep, the scan res is so bad on these things you can literally leave system before they lock you.

  • Without using (very rare) faction weapons, a purely combat fit starbase will do less than 10,000dps, slightly above a single Dreadnought. This fit is exclusive to Amarr and Minmatar towers, as POS hybrid and missile weapons do less than half this damage.
  • In order to do this much damage, all the modules need to be operated in advance by several people in place ahead of time and focusing on a single target. They will then sit there and wait 30-40secs for the guns to lock, while hoping the target doesn't just warp out. Which it will.


gascanu wrote:


you faill to understand that atm the "small groups" have around 0(ZERO) R64 moons; given that, can you tell me how the "large groups" can use this tool to grief them?


Because there are plenty of small groups who simply buy those r64's in Jita and react them into more advanced materials required for T2.

Dropping a mining tower on an r64 moon doesn't automatically spit out T2 ships you know. There are several steps in the process and this new feature happily disrupts the most basic levels, affecting everyone up the chain.
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#393 - 2013-10-17 21:14:14 UTC
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#394 - 2013-10-17 21:16:09 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.


Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Jones Bones
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2013-10-17 21:16:53 UTC
Drone Assist and now Siphons.

Why so serious Goonies? You used to be such fun loving bees. Now you're the guy in the suit and tie who drinks dark coffee every morning and complains about "kids these days". So sad Sad
Gossamer DT
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#396 - 2013-10-17 21:17:03 UTC
This is great, I now have a peace time hobby for my tengu/crane/widow crew.

Lets see crane cargo 9,405.9 so fits about 470 siphons, no limit to the number I can drop on a tower, have a list of moons check, this is going to be epic!!! I figure 50 per tower (just to be safe, want to make sure they last a while), and that gives me 20 spares to pop back and replace for the aggressive locals.

I love you CCP best Idea ever!

who is your main, and what does he do?

Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#397 - 2013-10-17 21:17:14 UTC
Querns wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.


Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal


Yes! Lol Shame on me.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#398 - 2013-10-17 21:17:56 UTC
I mean I think I've made my point: we're arguing with people who don't have the faintest grasp of any of the underlying systems like dr "less moongoo harvested means prices drop" economics, so I'm going to repeat myself once and then stop responding to people who can barely manage to string together two sentences, most of which is misspelled.

The system itself could be neat when siphon costs aren't a rounding error, but the system is poorly balanced as it is because there's no cost to losing a siphon. In addition, being able to chain two siphons to nuke the entire output is not well balanced and that should be looked at. Lastly, alchemy being immune throws things off. Presumably this is because it produces one unit an hour. That should be changed to producing 200 units an hour, and requiring 200 to refine. They can even be .005m3 so that nothing changes size-wise.

Those three things should be looked at and corrected before (not after) they are introduced. Especially the cost, as you say you'll fix it later if it's unbalanced - but you won't, because you won't want to run the risk of people speculatively hording beforehand.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Gossamer DT
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#399 - 2013-10-17 21:18:12 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.


The siphons do not destroy minerals.

They are freely lootable.

Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first.


reading is hard they say

Siphon units also have a waste factor (assumed to be lost in transit). This wastes (destroys) a portion of what is stolen. The waste factor for the Small Mobile Siphon Unit is 20%.

who is your main, and what does he do?

Krios Ahzek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2013-10-17 21:18:21 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively.


Only if you're working under the dubious assumption that a small group is like a large group, but smaller.



The smallest group with any amount of relevance is probably RnK, and even then they mostly run gimmick ops.

Smaller groups will go bankrupt from losing haulers and equipment trying to siphon some materials from us. We're going to heavily subsidize screwing with enemy R64s thanks to our other sources of income and market manipulation. You're all going to have to learn to cope.

As people have mentioned in this very thread, we can in fact field entire fleets of 100m isk suicide battlecruisers. We could get 2500 siphons for the price of one Tornado fleet. That's more than two for each R64 moon we don't own. You're welcome.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us