EVE General Discussion

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6371&find=unread
"*This has been extended to include Characters, EVE Time Cards (ETCs), website hosting and voice chat services."

Every example you gave that is not the SOMER model of RMT is explicitly allowed by CCP rules. And CCP has no authority to tell 3rd party sites they cannot have advertisements - they would have no means to enforce such. They're not the internet police.

I think the answer is simple. Really simple.

• There are rules that apply to CCP employees that prevent them from interfering with the game.


• Those rules should now simply be applied to SOMER. He is in effect a CCP employee.

Fixed.

You're welcome, internet.

The area is only grey for the troll

A service site does not require the expenditure of cash or isk to use, they may do that for costs but it is not required. A for profit site requires the of cash or isk to use or access a large part of the site. And RMT is converting cash to isk and visa versa not the possibility.

Grey areas on the survey as in should gifts be given to for profit sites for prizes. The answer is NO, see no grey at all.

Grey Areas - They're only Grey as long as CCP wants them to be.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6371&find=unread
Note: this is in reference to selling game time on the forum, where one player buys the time from CCP and sells it to another player for ISK. This scenario does not allow either player to convert ISK to cash (RMT).

To be clear, I have only claimed that it is a rules violation. But if you want my opinion, it's just a dumb way to allow RMT. Once you cross that line you should just allow it straight out, or it is just RMT for the a select few. Just do a clean real money tax on RMT sales through a game interface if that is the road you want to go down.

I don't personally care about RMT beyond fair application of the rules. So moving on...

I think the point to be taken from the RMT scheme is the influence this almost certainly had on the favoritism displayed toward SOMER. Here's the data I want to see: A breakdown of affiliate GTC sales over the last year. I suspect CCP has good reason to think SOMER is the best "fansite" around.

It's the monetization of CCP's in-game favor, and I don't think anyone supports that!

CCP is merely weighing the risk/benefits of it now. The only reason they would decide to allow the GTC RMT to continue is that they might think it makes them money. The might be thinking it is better to allow the GTC RMT to continue, and risk losing subscribers because they will take less of a financial hit than if they disallow the GTC RMT.

However, the opposite is true and it has nothing to do with how many subscribers they will lose. That, and I owe CCP a small apology.

CCP, please read this closely:


People will not play less SOMER because you no longer allow them to give away 200M isk with their GTC sales. They will play just as much SOMER, and therefore need just as much ISK, except that SOMER will no longer be giving them shadow ISK.

All it means is that they will need to buy MORE GTC's and PLEX to get the same amount of isk.

In other words, SOMER is undercutting CCP by giving out free "isk" with their GTC sales. If you get that extra 200 mil, that's 200 mil you do not need to buy from CCP.

If you use the price of PLEX as a guide, that's roughly 5-6 dollars taken away from CCP every time an eve gambler buys a GTC that comes with free isk.

So if no player centered argument has helped thus far - then let that sink in. SOMER may promote GTC sales, and thus be good for you, but the 200M credit does the opposite. People need fewer GTC's and fewer PLEX and therefore you lose money.

So I apologize. I was wrong - you are NOT profiting from SOMER's RMT scheme. It is actually costing you 6 dollars every time they sell a GTC.

No, that is a bad idea, Kate.

We should discuss the issue without resorting to repetition, misquoting or over the top arguments.

The issue does need fixing and we are working on that fix.

Putting words in our mouths to inflame and troll isn't the way to progress. Threats to leave and unsubscribe make some sense as hitting a company where it lives is effective but if you are leaving then you shouldn't have a lot of say in what those of us staying behind live with for rules.

I understand that some of you are angry . . . good. It shows you really care about this game. Otherwise your reaction would be 'meh, whatever'. But harness that anger. Apply it in a focused way rather than spinning on the floor kicking and yelling 'but I want it my way' over and over.

Some of you are doing this and I appreciate the effort whether I agree with them or not. To put down what you want in simple statements without all the emotional baggage is hard, I get that. (I have kids)

BUT THAT is what helps us move forward. That is what makes people read and think and consider change.

Nobody asked you to shut up, just to pause, take a breath and present your arguments in calm rational way without all the repetition. I know that goes directly against the rules of threadnaughts but ti will work far better in the long run.

As for me, my biggest fear is that if things become black and white we may lose a LOT of the community support for other sites, other people who have done so much for the game but may wind up on the wrong side of some line drawn in ink. It is why I like the grey. Sure, Eve players being who they are will dance in the grey areas to find where the line actually is and that is their right. But I really really do not want to see some babies thrown out with the bathwater.

So making a snap decision and drawing hard and fast rules . . . well look over at the TOS thread and see how much that form of handling problems has worked out. So we listen to you, or try to. We talk to CCP and try to find what was done and why, what will happen next and make a format for the future that will address the current issues.

m

You want people to put aside the rhetoric? What kind of space politician are you? isn't that against the rules?

Going forward I suggest that:
A: no tranferrable in game items are given out as prizes, except as part of CCP run competitions, where a sizeable portion of the player base has the ability to enter. Prizes to SCL winners are allowable, but not to the organisers, for example.
B: At no time should unique ships be given out. A blueprint for the ship, which requires a base version of the ship should be done.
C: All in game prizes should have lore backing (Even if it's just corporate sponsorship)
D: Avatar items for participation in an in game/out of game event are allowable, as long as it's more than 'we meet in a pub', and it's open to all players. no "Free for members of 'vote steve ronuken for CSM', for everyone else it's 10,000k". Minor discounting is ok, but more than 10-20% is not. I'd suggest sticking to t-shirts for this.
E: non-transferrable prizes can be at CCP's discretion. Such as getting to name something. (see my blog post on this for more detailing of non-transferrable, without requiring soulbinding.)

Work in progress, what should the survey ask?

The following has these different answers Yes/No/Sometimes/I Don't know/(N/A) or a Number

Community Sites

1) Community sites should be given rewards by CCP Yes
2) Community sites could be given Plex as prizes for contests Yes
3) Community sites could be given in game items as rewards Yes
4) Should these items be "soulbound" Yes
5) Community sites could be given plex as an incentive Yes
6) How many maximum 4
7) Community sites could receive fanfest tickets as an incentive Yes
8) We could pay for their airfare, hotel ect.. Yes
9) We give other out of game rewards to community sites Yes
10) T-shirts could be given to community sites Yes
11) USBs could be given to community sites Yes
12) Model ships could be given to community sites Yes
13) Should community sites be given prizes to raffle in game No
14) CCP should run the raffle/gifting, the community site promotes it. Yes
15) Should the CSM be given a special ship for each CSM year Yes
16) Should it be "Soulbound" Yes

For Profit sites

1)I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me, they can give me ISK. No
2)I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me, they can give me real money. No
3)I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me they can give me ingame assets No
4)should their be a current value limit on these assets (N/A)
5)How much should be the limit in isk, in one calander year (N/A)
6)I provide a service to the EVE community, should CCP offer me fanfest tickets Yes
7)I provide a service to the EVE community, should CCP also pay my airfare, hotel ect.. No
8)I provide a service to the EVE community, should CCP offer me items to give to my customers No
9)I provide a service to the EVE community, should CCP allow me to RMT No
10)I provide a service to the EVE community, should I be given preferential treatment No
11)I provide a service to the EVE community, should my ability to advertise at events be enough Yes

Special Events/ AT
1)Should the alliance toraments continue with special ships for the winners Yes
2)Should for Profit sites be allowed to contribute to these events Yes
3)Should Community sites be allowed to contribute Yes


That is all that I can think of at the moment and its a bit lop sided my self, I will continue to work on this but for me personally I see a huge difference between a community site (Crossing Zebras, DOTLAN, EvE Markets, ect...) and a paid site (Somer blink, EvE-Games ect..) community sites are done out of a love of community and people spend months working for nothing other that the love of the game, For Profit sites work for months with the aim to make money. Subsequently CCP should be backing Community sites as For Profit ones are there for themselves and they will do their own sponsoring to make more money. Most people call this advertising.

I would like to know what questions other people think are relevant, as I said this is very much a work in progress.

Oh and I very much hate " Fansites should receive incentives in proportion to their benefits to the community."
Their benefits according to who? Goonswarm would say their wiki/website benefits thousands of people, while other places might be more valuable to more people but be harder to prove.

And as I have said previously their needs to be a public register for all gifts given by CCP to Community and for Profit sites and entities.

Trebor/Mike/Any other CSM who wants to respond:

Why do we need a survey to determine whether CCP should enforce its own rules? CCP staffers have been playing favourites, picking and choosing the winners in a competitive in-game area (gambling) with valuable in-game and out-of-game gifts. Their chosen favourites also appear to be engaged in shady RMT practises. CCP staffers playing favourites in the sandbox is forbidden, and RMT or pseudo-RMT activities are forbidden. We don't need to wait for a survey to tell you that and the fact you're putting that forward as a solution is laughable.

Imagine a politician is pulled over for speeding, and the publicity as a result of that uncovers that the politician's activities on the day he was pulled over link him to a money-laundering front for some illegitimate activity. Imagine then that it also turns out that the money laundering front was making significant campaign donations to the party the politician and his colleagues belong to. Now imagine then that the politician's colleagues and the public body assigned to advise them suggest that based on these revelations, rather than the politician and his money laundering friends being charged for their criminal activity, the response should be to first undertake a lengthy public referendum on whether the speed limit is too low, and whether money laundering is bad.

Do you seriously not see any credibility gap here?