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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#801 - 2013-10-17 00:52:49 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp EVE is Rated TEEN.

I am now going to contact the ERSB and see if buying a GTC for real money and then gambling with credits that are redeemable for in game stuff would be a violation. By the way thanks for making me go read all this stuff. I never knew.

Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency

Since money and isk can be related this might be a grey area also. I paid for trips with plex and people can gamble on Somer with plex interesting seems to be real money to me

to me it seems that this is why their answer is going to take months.

they have already decided they are going to continue to back Somer and give them stuff.

that's why their lawyers need time to go through the legalese.
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#802 - 2013-10-17 01:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
you would think CCP would have a consumer group they could bounce these ideas off of. They might even have a risk management or a group of lawyers hell someone to step in and stop this bad business decision. Well no worries they are all on there way to Vegas right now and my friends trebor is left fending off the dogs.

Trebor I needed a hero not a politician sorry my friend. I am hoping at some point you get on the right side of this fight.

By the way I had another CSM member tell me "well you and I will not see eye to eye friend" "but tbh i think its great anyone who gets creative in this game" <---- meaning somer blink

I guess he is right Somer is creative in how they went about getting CCP to over look there blink credits for cash program.
Frying Doom
#803 - 2013-10-17 01:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
While the CSMs actions in this crisis were well less than stellar to start with.

I must admit I have had some faith restored well in Trebor anyway for standing up and talking to us.

I will admit I don't believe us protesting by being quiet is the best advice I have ever heard but at least he stood up to the firing squad.

And lets face it everyone knows how much I love Trebor.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#804 - 2013-10-17 01:11:30 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

And lets face it everyone knows how much I love Trebor.

That's the only explanation I can see for why you'd be satisfied with his response of basically "shut up and go away"
Frying Doom
#805 - 2013-10-17 01:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Sal Landry wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

And lets face it everyone knows how much I love Trebor.

That's the only explanation I can see for why you'd be satisfied with his response of basically "shut up and go away"

I am far from satisfied with his shut up and go away response. I have never heard of a successful protest where the people shut up and went away. Some protests have literally gone on for decades with the people not shutting up and going away.

What I was saying was that he showed courage to actually face this crowd unlike others who are MIA or just post and run.

Oh and for bias, my community service for the last 3 years has been trying like hell to try and make sure Trebor was not elected. This is the first time I was ever glad I failed.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Herr Kutz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#806 - 2013-10-17 01:24:48 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Gentlepods,

Since people have taken it upon themselves to deliver some "realtalk", you will forgive me if I take the opportunity to do the same.

Participants in this thread should be aware that:

* This issue is not going to be resolved quickly. The problem was a long time in the making, and it will be months in the resolution, if for no other reason than there are significant legal issues CCP has to take into consideration. Furthermore, a quick resolution is unlikely to be one you will like.

* Raging and repeating your position at every opportunity is not constructive, and actively hurts your argument. All it does is sh*t up the thread, and drown out other voices. If you want to be taken seriously, you want to encourage broad discussion. Threads that have a high percentage of posts by a small number of posters are not taken seriously by anyone.

* The reason for the surveys -- both CSMs and CCPs -- is to gather more data from more members of the community. CSM needs that data in order to make the best possible arguments on your behalf; "the data says" is a better argument than "the opinion of my ass is".

I understand that people are upset. I am upset too -- my personal position is very similar to that of Argus Sorn. But giving in to your anger will not get you a good result; it just makes it easier to avoid addressing the merits of your arguments.

Best
Trebor


I thoroughly look forward to seeing the results of these polls - particularly if it actually engages the non-forum dwellers so that they can have their say without certain groups shouting them down.

I see it going one of three ways -

1: Mostly forumites respond, CCP accept those results as "the general consensus" and act based on that

2: Mostly forumites respond, but as that is only a small selection of the game's population, CCP assume that those not responding don't care/have a problem with what's happened and act based on that

3: The response is mixed between both forumites and non-forumites and CCP get a more accurate result and act on that.

I hope for 3, but expect 1.

My question to CCP/the CSM is how are you going to get option 3 rather than have the results skewed towards 1 or 2?
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#807 - 2013-10-17 01:30:37 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

And lets face it everyone knows how much I love Trebor.

That's the only explanation I can see for why you'd be satisfied with his response of basically "shut up and go away"



You missed the satire in his response
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#808 - 2013-10-17 01:36:26 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

What I was saying was that he showed courage to actually face this crowd unlike others who are MIA or just post and run.


I'll agree there have certainly been worse CSM responses

Malcanis wrote:

*sips mojito
EVE-GAMES
EVE-GAMES.NET
#809 - 2013-10-17 01:44:20 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Good one... lets keep it civil shall we?

Frying Doom wrote:

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

Im not a journalist....and I did edit my original post for you.

Frying Doom wrote:

Any way the EULA


B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
I see very little grey in this myself even if you use the extra named credit between the purchase of GTC and turning it into isk, you are still transferring in game content via any other means. Adding in an extra layer does not mean anything at all, it is very much still RMT.


As I stated multiple times previously... I AGREE THE LANGUAGE COULD BE MORE CLEAR...

As it stands now... I don't sell isk for money.... I don't even sell time codes. I point users to a certified reseller that does, in turn I receive a small percentage of each time code sold, which doesn't even cover my costs.

As an incentive to get my users to purchase through the certified reseller of my choice, I offer them credits that are good for playing games on my website. Playing the games is not a guarantee of ISK, it is possible (however unlikely) that a user could purchase 1 ticket per day and not win anything.

I think if I was actually the Reseller AND I gave ACTUAL ISK bonuses to players that bought time codes from me, then there would be a EULA violation. However, this is not the case.

Once again, If the language changes...and the program is deemed a violation, I would comply with the new changes.

https://eve-games.net
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#810 - 2013-10-17 01:47:38 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
Sal Landry wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

And lets face it everyone knows how much I love Trebor.

That's the only explanation I can see for why you'd be satisfied with his response of basically "shut up and go away"



You missed the satire in his response


the fact I have got frying doom to like Trebor is making me feel like "Moses". Even tho now that these two are working together I feel I am to late to get a ground swell. Or is it the goons are looking to take full advantage of this new CCP policy and cash out and go play star Cit Roll
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#811 - 2013-10-17 01:49:55 UTC
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Good one... lets keep it civil shall we?

Frying Doom wrote:

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

Im not a journalist....and I did edit my original post for you.

Frying Doom wrote:

Any way the EULA


B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
I see very little grey in this myself even if you use the extra named credit between the purchase of GTC and turning it into isk, you are still transferring in game content via any other means. Adding in an extra layer does not mean anything at all, it is very much still RMT.


As I stated multiple times previously... I AGREE THE LANGUAGE COULD BE MORE CLEAR...

As it stands now... I don't sell isk for money.... I don't even sell time codes. I point users to a certified reseller that does, in turn I receive a small percentage of each time code sold, which doesn't even cover my costs.

As an incentive to get my users to purchase through the certified reseller of my choice, I offer them credits that are good for playing games on my website. Playing the games is not a guarantee of ISK, it is possible (however unlikely) that a user could purchase 1 ticket per day and not win anything.

I think if I was actually the Reseller AND I gave ACTUAL ISK bonuses to players that bought time codes from me, then there would be a EULA violation. However, this is not the case.

Once again, If the language changes...and the program is deemed a violation, I would comply with the new changes.


if you want my respect stop giving free isk for GTC sales. Until that you are no different and cover my cost that is laughable
Shai 'Hulud
#812 - 2013-10-17 01:51:12 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
* Raging and repeating your position at every opportunity is not constructive, and actively hurts your argument. All it does is sh*t up the thread, and drown out other voices. If you want to be taken seriously, you want to encourage broad discussion. Threads that have a high percentage of posts by a small number of posters are not taken seriously by anyone.

* The reason for the surveys -- both CSMs and CCPs -- is to gather more data from more members of the community. CSM needs that data in order to make the best possible arguments on your behalf; "the data says" is a better argument than "the opinion of my ass is".

Shai 'Hulud wrote:
The survey is designed to replace this thread. In a survey they have final say over the questions, and thus over the possible results.

So I nailed it Cool

Why the hell did they ask for our opinions here if they are just going to ignore them? How many threads, posts and individual opinions are there on this issue now? Aside from a few trolls and ignoramuses, I see a rather unanimous response to this issue.

It seems the data hunt will continue until data is found to defend their position.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#813 - 2013-10-17 01:53:37 UTC
We are planning on doing two surveys so that each can focus on one aspect of the can of worms that has been opened. Also so we do not create some monstrous 45 minute wall of text nobody has the endurance for.

The surveys will likely be posted or linked in the forums but CCP may also choose to run a parallel one similar to customer surveys they do, now and again, to get opinions from beyond the forums. This is a good idea because a self selected sample for a survey always makes the results questionable although at times such methodology is unavoidable.

There will be 'grey area' choices because not everything is black and white.

I do look forward to seeing both the survey and your opinions on it.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#814 - 2013-10-17 01:53:42 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
That's the only explanation I can see for why you'd be satisfied with his response of basically "shut up and go away"

I would love for you to explain exactly what it was in my post that in any way said "shut up and go away". If that is what you read from it, then you are so blinded with rage that nothing I say will get through your perceptual filters.

I merely pointed out that repeated angry posts saying the same thing were counterproductive. Nobody likes being yelled at.

I'm going to take my own advice and not belabor this particular point any further. Instead, I will devote my time to answering the concerns of the constructive posters in this thread, such as Frying Doom.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#815 - 2013-10-17 02:03:10 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Sal Landry wrote:
That's the only explanation I can see for why you'd be satisfied with his response of basically "shut up and go away"

I would love for you to explain exactly what it was in my post that in any way said "shut up and go away". If that is what you read from it, then you are so blinded with rage that nothing I say will get through your perceptual filters.

I merely pointed out that repeated angry posts saying the same thing were counterproductive. Nobody likes being yelled at.

I'm going to take my own advice and not belabor this particular point any further. Instead, I will devote my time to answering the concerns of the constructive posters in this thread, such as Frying Doom.


Ok now that is satire at its best. Wait while I swallow what I just threw up.
Frying Doom
#816 - 2013-10-17 02:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Good one... lets keep it civil shall we?

Frying Doom wrote:

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

Im not a journalist....and I did edit my original post for you.

Frying Doom wrote:

Any way the EULA


B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
I see very little grey in this myself even if you use the extra named credit between the purchase of GTC and turning it into isk, you are still transferring in game content via any other means. Adding in an extra layer does not mean anything at all, it is very much still RMT.


As I stated multiple times previously... I AGREE THE LANGUAGE COULD BE MORE CLEAR...

As it stands now... I don't sell isk for money.... I don't even sell time codes. I point users to a certified reseller that does, in turn I receive a small percentage of each time code sold, which doesn't even cover my costs.

As an incentive to get my users to purchase through the certified reseller of my choice, I offer them credits that are good for playing games on my website. Playing the games is not a guarantee of ISK, it is possible (however unlikely) that a user could purchase 1 ticket per day and not win anything.

I think if I was actually the Reseller AND I gave ACTUAL ISK bonuses to players that bought time codes from me, then there would be a EULA violation. However, this is not the case.

Once again, If the language changes...and the program is deemed a violation, I would comply with the new changes.

I was keeping it civil, I presumed your confusion over the words bias and biased came from English as a second language.

No you are not a journalist, you are someone who runs a for profit site and may or may not have received gifts for your self or your customers from CCP. The size and amount of those gifts is a bias, the fact you have stated you run a lottery site is not showing your bias, just your potential bias. To actually state your bias you would have to list what you and your site have received as gifts from CCP.

As to the RMT actually the language is quiet clear. Your site and others receive real life money in exchange for GTC(which is perfectly fine and above board) and fake isk that is convertible with a percentage loss into ingame isk(not perfectly fine and is RMT). What is the difference between you receiving cash and giving fake isk out then with a reduction converting that into real isk and me selling a pen with 1.2 billion free pen isks convertible into 1 billion in game isks? Nothing at all adding a step still makes it RMT and is covered in the EULA under other means.

As to the fact you spent 6 months setting up and coding your site, well you are a business. You should not need or require gifts from CCP to run your business.

The EULA language does not need to change, the rules just need to be enforced, properly rather than the current selective approach.

Why should your need for a business and its profits or lack there of effect the sand box. You did not set up your site for the good of the community, you set it up for the good of your self. Some people in this game have spent a lot longer than 6 months doing things for the community and not received anything at all. They do not need it to run their various help sites, charities, video blogs, ect.. why should you deserve it?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#817 - 2013-10-17 02:04:01 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Gentlepods,

Since people have taken it upon themselves to deliver some "realtalk", you will forgive me if I take the opportunity to do the same.

Participants in this thread should be aware that:

* This issue is not going to be resolved quickly. The problem was a long time in the making, and it will be months in the resolution, if for no other reason than there are significant legal issues CCP has to take into consideration. Furthermore, a quick resolution is unlikely to be one you will like.


Please have patience with a slowpoke.

Why is this going to not be resolved quickly?

RMT => instant perma ban.

It does not get any quicker nor easier than that, doesn't it?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#818 - 2013-10-17 02:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
DNSBLACK wrote:
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Good one... lets keep it civil shall we?

Frying Doom wrote:

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

Im not a journalist....and I did edit my original post for you.

Frying Doom wrote:

Any way the EULA


B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
I see very little grey in this myself even if you use the extra named credit between the purchase of GTC and turning it into isk, you are still transferring in game content via any other means. Adding in an extra layer does not mean anything at all, it is very much still RMT.


As I stated multiple times previously... I AGREE THE LANGUAGE COULD BE MORE CLEAR...

As it stands now... I don't sell isk for money.... I don't even sell time codes. I point users to a certified reseller that does, in turn I receive a small percentage of each time code sold, which doesn't even cover my costs.

As an incentive to get my users to purchase through the certified reseller of my choice, I offer them credits that are good for playing games on my website. Playing the games is not a guarantee of ISK, it is possible (however unlikely) that a user could purchase 1 ticket per day and not win anything.

I think if I was actually the Reseller AND I gave ACTUAL ISK bonuses to players that bought time codes from me, then there would be a EULA violation. However, this is not the case.

Once again, If the language changes...and the program is deemed a violation, I would comply with the new changes.


if you want my respect stop giving free isk for GTC sales. Until that you are no different and cover my cost that is laughable


EVE-Games, there is no risk for you in the auctions, raffles, lotteries, whatever you want to call them. Therefore you are RMT'ing. Please do not deny it.

It is simple. You are selling isk for cash everytime someone bids on one of your auctions with "bonus isk". You got cash, they got bonus isk and then they contribute it toward the sale of the 'auction'.

No matter WHO WINS, you get the cash.

That's RMT. There is no gray area here. You engage in RMT, just like SOMERblink.

But you have a choice now:

You can step up to the plate, be a winner and say "yeah, I realize now that it's RMT, sorry it was a mistake, it's going to stop today", or you can take the low road and try and argue that it's not.

Stand up man, admit it and make a change and you may be the next big lottery site - because you'll have a ton of backers from this thread who respect you for your honor.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#819 - 2013-10-17 02:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
EVE-GAMES wrote:
I don't sell isk for money.... I don't even sell time codes. I point users to a certified reseller that does, in turn I receive a small percentage of each time code sold....

As an incentive to get my users to purchase through the certified reseller of my choice, I offer them credits that are good for playing games on my website...


please reread what you just wrote...

looks to me like you're saying you don't sell... directly... and that's about it.

you're still making real money from GTC sales that are fueled by your credit which is equiv. to isk.
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#820 - 2013-10-17 02:05:15 UTC
Trebor you know iam on coms and just above you come on up and lets enjoy our converting of Frying Doom together. I know we are on opposite sides of this fight as far as process but we can at least toast this great achievement.