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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Grendel Jagger
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#781 - 2013-10-16 23:41:02 UTC
Confirming im an alt of Rex Jagger, fix this CCP.
Frying Doom
#782 - 2013-10-16 23:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

* The reason for the surveys -- both CSMs and CCPs -- is to gather more data from more members of the community. CSM needs that data in order to make the best possible arguments on your behalf; "the data says" is a better argument than "the opinion of my ass is".

Best
Trebor

As you decided to pop in a couple of quick questions some of them in my post above.

1) Is this going to be a blind survey to the community or are CCP going to explain in the survey why it exists?
2) Is the community sites and for profit sites part of the survey going to be separated
3) Will the surveys be put up for comment before they go out.

As surveys can be worded and structured to give the results you require, rather than the truth.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#783 - 2013-10-16 23:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Gentlepods,

Since people have taken it upon themselves to deliver some "realtalk", you will forgive me if I take the opportunity to do the same.

Participants in this thread should be aware that:

* This issue is not going to be resolved quickly. The problem was a long time in the making, and it will be months in the resolution, if for no other reason than there are significant legal issues CCP has to take into consideration. Furthermore, a quick resolution is unlikely to be one you will like.

* Raging and repeating your position at every opportunity is not constructive, and actively hurts your argument. All it does is sh*t up the thread, and drown out other voices. If you want to be taken seriously, you want to encourage broad discussion. Threads that have a high percentage of posts by a small number of posters are not taken seriously by anyone.

* The reason for the surveys -- both CSMs and CCPs -- is to gather more data from more members of the community. CSM needs that data in order to make the best possible arguments on your behalf; "the data says" is a better argument than "the opinion of my ass is".

I understand that people are upset. I am upset too -- my personal position is very similar to that of Argus Sorn. But giving in to your anger will not get you a good result; it just makes it easier to avoid addressing the merits of your arguments.

Best
Trebor


Ugh so you're saying we won't be getting an answer on anything for months... due to what exactly? significant legal issues being? legal issues of sponsoring a gambling site? this sounds like an acknowledgement that the giveaways are going to continue, no matter what we think.

also, did you really just suggest that we protest by... shutting up?

there is already plenty of data on these forums, we don't need to take a survey with massaged questions that lead to the answers wanted by CCP while avoiding the actual issues, which is what i feel the whole purpose of it is.

seems like instead of acknowledging mistakes and working to fix them, CCP is choosing to double down on their 'special relationships' and is hoping that pushing back a discussion will make people just forget about it.
EVE-GAMES
EVE-GAMES.NET
#784 - 2013-10-16 23:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: EVE-GAMES
EDIT: I OWN AN EVE LOTTO SITE https://eve-games.net

Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

-Gifts-
CCP is a business. The sole purpose of a business is to make money. If CCP wants to give gifts to users that are helping them be profitable, and in turn keep churning out content for YOU, then that's their prerogative.
I would imagine if YOU sold thousands upon thousands of GTC's, as Somer has done, then you would get some tasty gifts as well. What's next? A rage post about how CCP "secretly" gave all their sales staff a Christmas bonus last year, and didn't run it by the community first? Common guys, let's get some perspective here.

This is about Money. Actual real money. This is not little league where we don't keep score and everyone is a winner. This is business.
Want free stuff? Spend 6 months of your life coding a fan site, another 6 months getting users to sign up, then monetize it by selling GTC's and then spend the rest of your time, updating and maintaining it.

Sounds like a lot of work for a few free space pixels doesn't it?

-Prizes-

I would love some stuff to give away to my users from CCP, but Out of Game Items just wont work.

80% of my users won't even enter an email address (so they can reset their passwords automatically) Now you expect them to give their names and addresses? Not to mention the time I would have to spend to package and ship them a t-shirt? Spending 10 dollars in time, materials, and shipping all for what? A 2 dollar piece of a GTC sale? It doesn't make much sense does it?

In game items/isk/plex are the quickest, most cost effective way I have to reward my users.

-RMT-

I agree this is a grey area and the language could be clearer, BUT looking at the EULA... the current system I, and other sites, employ DOES seem to be within the rules. It would be nice to have some clearer language though...

We implemented our "Credit for GTC Purchase" program for a couple of reasons.
1) We had to, to be competitive with other sites.
2) There is really no other "thing" that we can offer as incentives to our users to purchase time codes from us.

We will continue to offer the credits for GTC purchases. Unless it becomes specifically forbidden by a change in language in the EULA, or we are asked to stop by the owners of the game.

https://eve-games.net
Shai 'Hulud
#785 - 2013-10-16 23:57:08 UTC
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

-Gifts-
CCP is a business. The sole purpose of a business is to make money. If CCP wants to give gifts to users that are helping them be profitable, and in turn keep churning out content for YOU, then that's their prerogative.
I would imagine if YOU sold thousands upon thousands of GTC's, as Somer has done, then you would get some tasty gifts as well. What's next? A rage post about how CCP "secretly" gave all their sales staff a Christmas bonus last year, and didn't run it by the community first? Common guys, let's get some perspective here.

This is about Money. Actual real money. This is not little league where we don't keep score and everyone is a winner. This is business.
Want free stuff? Spend 6 months of your life coding a fan site, another 6 months getting users to sign up, then monetize it by selling GTC's and then spend the rest of your time, updating and maintaining it.

Sounds like a lot of work for a few free space pixels doesn't it?

-Prizes-

I would love some stuff to give away to my users from CCP, but Out of Game Items just wont work.

80% of my users won't even enter an email address (so they can reset their passwords automatically) Now you expect them to give their names and addresses? Not to mention the time I would have to spend to package and ship them a t-shirt? Spending 10 dollars in time, materials, and shipping all for what? A 2 dollar piece of a GTC sale? It doesn't make much sense does it?

In game items/isk/plex are the quickest, most cost effective way I have to reward my users.

-RMT-

I agree this is a grey area and the language could be clearer, BUT looking at the EULA... the current system I, and other sites, employ DOES seem to be within the rules. It would be nice to have some clearer language though...

We implemented our "Credit for GTC Purchase" program for a couple of reasons.
1) We had to, to be competitive with other sites.
2) There is really no other "thing" that we can offer as incentives to our users to purchase time codes from us.

We will continue to offer the credits for GTC purchases. Unless it becomes specifically forbidden by a change in language in the EULA, or we are asked to stop by the owners of the game.

You are trading ISK for cash. That's not RMT how?

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Frying Doom
#786 - 2013-10-17 00:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

The one thing I will say is that as an eve site you failed to mention your bias in your posting, other than your RMT activities, most, if not all of the bloggers who have commented on this have clearly stated what items they have received from CCP, so as to give readers of their articles and posts a clear idea of their level of bias.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#787 - 2013-10-17 00:06:33 UTC
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

-Gifts-
CCP is a business. The sole purpose of a business is to make money. If CCP wants to give gifts to users that are helping them be profitable, and in turn keep churning out content for YOU, then that's their prerogative.
I would imagine if YOU sold thousands upon thousands of GTC's, as Somer has done, then you would get some tasty gifts as well. What's next? A rage post about how CCP "secretly" gave all their sales staff a Christmas bonus last year, and didn't run it by the community first? Common guys, let's get some perspective here.

This is about Money. Actual real money. This is not little league where we don't keep score and everyone is a winner. This is business.
Want free stuff? Spend 6 months of your life coding a fan site, another 6 months getting users to sign up, then monetize it by selling GTC's and then spend the rest of your time, updating and maintaining it.

Sounds like a lot of work for a few free space pixels doesn't it?

-Prizes-

I would love some stuff to give away to my users from CCP, but Out of Game Items just wont work.

80% of my users won't even enter an email address (so they can reset their passwords automatically) Now you expect them to give their names and addresses? Not to mention the time I would have to spend to package and ship them a t-shirt? Spending 10 dollars in time, materials, and shipping all for what? A 2 dollar piece of a GTC sale? It doesn't make much sense does it?

In game items/isk/plex are the quickest, most cost effective way I have to reward my users.

-RMT-

I agree this is a grey area and the language could be clearer, BUT looking at the EULA... the current system I, and other sites, employ DOES seem to be within the rules. It would be nice to have some clearer language though...

We implemented our "Credit for GTC Purchase" program for a couple of reasons.
1) We had to, to be competitive with other sites.
2) There is really no other "thing" that we can offer as incentives to our users to purchase time codes from us.

We will continue to offer the credits for GTC purchases. Unless it becomes specifically forbidden by a change in language in the EULA, or we are asked to stop by the owners of the game.


I love it please keep posting. By the way your welcome for the increase in traffic will you read this post for me https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=287241&find=unread . I am looking for a business partner.
EVE-GAMES
EVE-GAMES.NET
#788 - 2013-10-17 00:08:45 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

You are trading ISK for cash. That's not RMT how?


I can see from the whole 9 seconds it took you to read my post, and reply to it that you have no interest in a debate and just want to tell me how wrong I am.

As I said, the EULA could use some clearer language in regards to this.


https://eve-games.net
Frying Doom
#789 - 2013-10-17 00:11:42 UTC
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

You are trading ISK for cash. That's not RMT how?


I can see from the whole 9 seconds it took you to read my post, and reply to it that you have no interest in a debate and just want to tell me how wrong I am.

As I said, the EULA could use some clearer language in regards to this.



Maybe you could post the relevant part of the EULA and tell us how you are not in breach of it?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Shai 'Hulud
#790 - 2013-10-17 00:12:33 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Gentlepods,

Since people have taken it upon themselves to deliver some "realtalk", you will forgive me if I take the opportunity to do the same.

Participants in this thread should be aware that:

* This issue is not going to be resolved quickly. The problem was a long time in the making, and it will be months in the resolution, if for no other reason than there are significant legal issues CCP has to take into consideration. Furthermore, a quick resolution is unlikely to be one you will like.

* Raging and repeating your position at every opportunity is not constructive, and actively hurts your argument. All it does is sh*t up the thread, and drown out other voices. If you want to be taken seriously, you want to encourage broad discussion. Threads that have a high percentage of posts by a small number of posters are not taken seriously by anyone.

* The reason for the surveys -- both CSMs and CCPs -- is to gather more data from more members of the community. CSM needs that data in order to make the best possible arguments on your behalf; "the data says" is a better argument than "the opinion of my ass is".

I understand that people are upset. I am upset too -- my personal position is very similar to that of Argus Sorn. But giving in to your anger will not get you a good result; it just makes it easier to avoid addressing the merits of your arguments.

Best
Trebor

What?...

If your personal opinion is that of Argus Sorn, why the **** do you need a poll? Do you have no idea how a representative government works? You were elected to use your good judgement and perspective to represent EVE players, not to administer polls. If polls were the answer, we wouldn't need you.

So what exactly is your role if we are going the direct democracy route?

As many have said, polls can be made to be intentionally misleading without much effort. It doesn't require a political science degree.

In times like this you guys should be the ones raging at CCP. Grow a pair and do your ******* job.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#791 - 2013-10-17 00:13:58 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

What?...

If your personal opinion is that of Argus Sorn, why the **** do you need a poll? Do you have no idea how a representative government works? You were elected to use your good judgement and perspective to represent EVE players, not to administer polls. If polls were the answer, we wouldn't need you.

So what exactly is your role if we are going the direct democracy route?

As many have said, polls can be made to be intentionally misleading without much effort. It doesn't require a political science degree.

In times like this you guys should be the ones raging at CCP. Grow a pair and do your ******* job.

it's ok bro, he's as upset as we are Roll
EVE-GAMES
EVE-GAMES.NET
#792 - 2013-10-17 00:15:58 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

The one thing I will say is that as an eve site you failed to mention your bias in your posting, other than your RMT activities, most, if not all of the bloggers who have commented on this have clearly stated what items they have received from CCP, so as to give readers of their articles and posts a clear idea of their level of bias.



Edited my post for you....also, just because I own an eve lotto site, doesn't make me biased. I am a fully grown human capable of changing my views based on intelligent discussion and reasoning. Calling one biased means I will never change my opinion. This is not the case, and as I have said, If CCP asks, or the EULA changes I will fully comply with the new rules.

https://eve-games.net
Frying Doom
#793 - 2013-10-17 00:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

The one thing I will say is that as an eve site you failed to mention your bias in your posting, other than your RMT activities, most, if not all of the bloggers who have commented on this have clearly stated what items they have received from CCP, so as to give readers of their articles and posts a clear idea of their level of bias.



Edited my post for you....also, just because I own an eve lotto site, doesn't make me biased. I am a fully grown human capable of changing my views based on intelligent discussion and reasoning. Calling one biased means I will never change my opinion. This is not the case, and as I have said, If CCP asks, or the EULA changes I will fully comply with the new rules.

Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

It is a means of indicating to your audience that your objectivity may be altered from a base norm.

Any way the EULA

EVE Online End User License Agreement wrote:

B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.

I see very little grey in this myself even if you use the extra named credit between the purchase of GTC and turning it into isk, you are still transferring in game content via any other means. Adding in an extra layer does not mean anything at all, it is very much still RMT.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Shai 'Hulud
#794 - 2013-10-17 00:23:16 UTC
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

You are trading ISK for cash. That's not RMT how?


I can see from the whole 9 seconds it took you to read my post, and reply to it that you have no interest in a debate and just want to tell me how wrong I am.

As I said, the EULA could use some clearer language in regards to this.



Jimmy Farrere wrote:
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/

Quote:

Real money trading
Trading in-game items for real-life currency or services is NOT allowed under any circumstances.


Any circumstances CCP?

Pretty clelar imo...

And I suspect the "9 seconds" thing is a bug or due to your edit. I read your whole post, and it took me more than 9 seconds. Check the timestamps here:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/285492-1/page/28#824

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Shai 'Hulud
#795 - 2013-10-17 00:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Shai 'Hulud
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

It is a means of indicating to your audience that your objectivity may be altered from a base norm.

I'm not sure he really needed to declare the bias since it was obvious. You declare biases that are not immediately apparent.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Frying Doom
#796 - 2013-10-17 00:30:27 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok apparently english is not your primary language so

Bias refers to any goods or service you have received from an individual or corporation that may or may not alter your perspective. When a journalist states their bias, it might include such things as stocks they own in a company or the fact that the politician they are interviewing cost them their last job.

It is a means of indicating to your audience that your objectivity may be altered from a base norm.

I'm not sure he really needed to declare the bias since it was obvious. You declare biases that are not immediately apparent.

In this matter the differing levels of bias are huge from some sites receiving 1 free account to some for profits sites receiving a lot more and some receiving hundreds of billions of isk in gifts, so I think site operators stating their bias is very necessary.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#797 - 2013-10-17 00:34:05 UTC
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
EVE-GAMES wrote:
Was getting an increase in traffic from forums.eveonline.com, and I thought I would come and see what all the fuss was about. Wow, this is a little over the top.... and this response will most likely not be popular.

The one thing I will say is that as an eve site you failed to mention your bias in your posting, other than your RMT activities, most, if not all of the bloggers who have commented on this have clearly stated what items they have received from CCP, so as to give readers of their articles and posts a clear idea of their level of bias.



Edited my post for you....also, just because I own an eve lotto site, doesn't make me biased. I am a fully grown human capable of changing my views based on intelligent discussion and reasoning. Calling one biased means I will never change my opinion. This is not the case, and as I have said, If CCP asks, or the EULA changes I will fully comply with the new rules.


Wait new rules so CCP has told you it was ok to run this site????? What are the current rules please I want to read them.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#798 - 2013-10-17 00:35:39 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
1) Is this going to be a blind survey to the community or are CCP going to explain in the survey why it exists?
2) Is the community sites and for profit sites part of the survey going to be separated
3) Will the surveys be put up for comment before they go out.

The answers are that:

1) the level of explanation accompanying the surveys has not been discussed in detail. If you have opinions about that, or suggestions, I would like to hear them.

2) There are currently going to be two surveys, one about appropriate ways CCP can reward 3rd-party sites, and one about what business practices are appropriate for 3rd-party sites.

3) The original idea was just to do the business practices survey, and the question list was developed by CSM. We made it clear in the meeting that while we would be happy to add appropriate questions suggested by CCP (just as we have asked for input from the community in this thread), this is a CSM initiative. During our meeting with CCP Community, the idea of investigating the issue of appropriate rewards was raised, and it was decided this was best done with separate surveys, so that each could be more focused and detailed. The framework for that survey was developed by CSM and has been posted on the internal forums for comment.

The sample questions in my post came from those lists, but we do not intend to publish them before the survey goes live. We want to hear what you think are the important questions to ask without biasing your feedback.

In particular, give us sequences of statements that go from something that is (in your opinion) clearly OK to something that is clearly BAD, in tiny little steps.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Frying Doom
#799 - 2013-10-17 00:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

The answers are that:

1) the level of explanation accompanying the surveys has not been discussed in detail. If you have opinions about that, or suggestions, I would like to hear them.

I would like a blurb on the top relating truthfully what has transpired eg. gold magnates, 30 scorpions, the lack of transparency ect. to be put especially on the CCP survey as the reason for the survey will make people think harder before answering the survey. Lets face it you say to someone how do you feel about CCP giving in game gifts to a for profit website, the answer will be "ok" or "who cares". You tell them the history that these gifts were worth hundreds of billions and their answers will change pretty damn fast.

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
2) There are currently going to be two surveys, one about appropriate ways CCP can reward 3rd-party sites, and one about what business practices are appropriate for 3rd-party sites.
It might be a cultural thing but 3rd party to me means you are lumping community and for profit sites together. They need to be separate on the survey, otherwise the survey is pointless.

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
3) The original idea was just to do the business practices survey, and the question list was developed by CSM. We made it clear in the meeting that while we would be happy to add appropriate questions suggested by CCP (just as we have asked for input from the community in this thread), this is a CSM initiative. During our meeting with CCP Community, the idea of investigating the issue of appropriate rewards was raised, and it was decided this was best done with separate surveys, so that each could be more focused and detailed. The framework for that survey was developed by CSM and has been posted on the internal forums for comment.

The sample questions in my post came from those lists, but we do not intend to publish them before the survey goes live. We want to hear what you think are the important questions to ask without biasing your feedback.

In particular, give us sequences of statements that go from something that is (in your opinion) clearly OK to something that is clearly BAD, in tiny little steps.

I will for a change take my time and present my version of good to bad with little steps in the next few days. but primarily focusing on separating the community and the for profit sites.

The other are I am curious on you keep saying business models/practices, are you surveying whether the community feels the current RMT is acceptable?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#800 - 2013-10-17 00:51:08 UTC
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp EVE is Rated TEEN.

I am now going to contact the ERSB and see if buying a GTC for real money and then gambling with credits that are redeemable for in game stuff would be a violation. By the way thanks for making me go read all this stuff. I never knew.

Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency

Since money and isk can be related this might be a grey area also. I paid for trips with plex and people can gamble on Somer with plex interesting seems to be real money to me