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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Author
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#761 - 2013-10-16 21:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.

LOL

looks like i found my next hustle Twisted
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#762 - 2013-10-16 21:19:02 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.


That site has been doing that for weeks before Mittens told you to notice this. So have about a dozen other sites, some for longer than blinks.
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#763 - 2013-10-16 21:22:15 UTC
I find it fascinating that so far CCP and the CSM have managed to alienate at one time or another almost every single player group in EVE, with 2 more months to finish the year. From incursion running carebears to lottery players most everyone has a strong opinion about a 'something' that affects their gameplay or sensibilities. If I was still studying political science my thesis would be about CCP and their player base......forget about ship balancing or third party handouts, the intrigue and backstabbing is worthy of any of the more elightened medieval courts.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#764 - 2013-10-16 21:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
Abditus Cularius wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.


That site has been doing that for weeks before Mittens told you to notice this. So have about a dozen other sites, some for longer than blinks.

i know you are a space-wealthy man who buys up a lot of rare ships, etc., i remember some of your forum posts. you've been shilling for Somer pretty hard over this... are you one of their suppliers? an employee maybe? did you get one of those free SIW?
Din Chao
#765 - 2013-10-16 21:27:51 UTC
Abditus Cularius wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.


That site has been doing that for weeks before Mittens told you to notice this. So have about a dozen other sites, some for longer than blinks.

Yes, but thanks to CCP, SOMER has a spotlight on it, a "community spotlight" if you will...

Just because the movie "Super Size Me" focused on McDonald's, doesn't mean Burger King is health food.
Shai 'Hulud
#766 - 2013-10-16 21:31:29 UTC
Abditus Cularius wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.


That site has been doing that for weeks before Mittens told you to notice this. So have about a dozen other sites, some for longer than blinks.

That changes things how?

Whether something is right or wrong has nothing to do with when people learn about it. Every time I see you "add" to this conversation, it's just some elitist "that's old news."

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free

Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#767 - 2013-10-16 21:34:26 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Abditus Cularius wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.


That site has been doing that for weeks before Mittens told you to notice this. So have about a dozen other sites, some for longer than blinks.

That changes things how?

Whether something is right or wrong has nothing to do with when people learn about it. Every time I see you "add" to this conversation, it's just some elitist "that's old news."

it's funny because he's a collector of rare ships and should be outraged... but he isn't. methinks it's because he's a Somer employee alt.
Shai 'Hulud
#768 - 2013-10-16 21:47:11 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Abditus Cularius wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
https://eve-games.net/

I guess the trend is growing.


That site has been doing that for weeks before Mittens told you to notice this. So have about a dozen other sites, some for longer than blinks.

That changes things how?

Whether something is right or wrong has nothing to do with when people learn about it. Every time I see you "add" to this conversation, it's just some elitist "that's old news."

it's funny because he's a collector of rare ships and should be outraged... but he isn't. methinks it's because he's a Somer employee alt.

Or he wants a legal method to monetize his EVE assets (no tie to SOMER needed).

Perhaps I should be more selfish too. At this point I would love to unload my 500b for some cash.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free

CarlosB
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#769 - 2013-10-16 21:47:14 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:


A number of people have posted explanations but you can refer to mine on this page (post #510):

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=285492&p=26

But in short:

Basically, every time you buy GTC you get 200M in "SOMER isk". This has created some confusion for some - as they think that this intermediate currency prevents this from being RMT, but it actually makes no difference since that intermediate currency (which was obtained with cash) is redeemable for isk and in game items through raffles. \

Because SOMER gets cash for every GTC sold, you are basically buying somer isk from them by purchasing a GTC. This also means that whenever you purchase somer isk, CCP and MarkeeDragon also profit.

Now, to simplify things, suppose an item is completely bid on using SOMER isk. Basically, SOMER has converted that item entirely into cash, since they get no real isk for it. You bought it with your SOMER isk, which is basically an intermediate currency you purchased with cash.

In fact the item need not exist since you could potentially take the isk buy out. In which case SOMER just turned isk into cash. This is especially important when it comes to high end items like SOE ships, IW Scorps, etc., since these items draw bids, yet in the end if SOMER is able to convince you to take the isk instead, they get to use the ship over again as a promotional (although I am not sure if this actually happened or not).

Now, because CCP is giving them items to sell and because those items are unique and only available through SOMER, SOMER is basically a proxy aurum market, a micro transaction market. And if one of those items "sells" for somer isk then some amount of cash is made by SOMER, CCP, and MarkeeDragon. All three profit from the raffling of the item.

And because you may choose to take the buy out, they can continue to raffle the same item again.

Many of the arguments against this view of the situation revolve around the fact that there is an element of "chance" involved in the raffle. But this is not really relevant from the SOMER/CCP/MarkeeDragon side of things. They assume ZERO risk. The item is "sold" as far as SOMER is concerned, as they get exactly what they want for it. They've effectively sold it to the group of people who have bid on the item. The only people taking any risk are those poor folks. Hell, even in Vegas the house assumes some risk, but not SOMER, and by association, not MarkeeDragon or CCP.



The thing is easy as an old time EVE player. Games tend to have more game Money circulating then there should be so the thing is easy since CCP ain't able to even folow thei're own EULA:

1- Change the EULA to make RMT legal so every one can make real money out of it not only SOMMER and few others favored by CCP itself. (since there are people that wanna buy GTC's instead of buying directly the subscription off CCP);

2- Make isk sinks, meaning make your own SOMMER or assume once and for all that SOMMER is part of CCP itself (cause there is on better way of controlling inflaction then taking currency off circulation).

Personaly i think that CCP should take the the second option since is the most aceptable, cause RMT would kill the sandbox.
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#770 - 2013-10-16 21:58:23 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
...should be outraged...


Alternatively, I knew iscorps were being given out like candy and never bought one.

I also find the idea of videogame outrage incredibly sad, which may have something to do with it.
Dani Lizardov
Eclipse Pulsar
WE FORM V0LTA
#771 - 2013-10-16 21:58:29 UTC
Quote:
1- Change the EULA to make RMT legal so every one can make real money out of it not only SOMMER and few others favored by CCP itself. (since there are people that wanna buy GTC's instead of buying directly the subscription off CCP);


Why do I buy GTCs?
€14.95 a month that is 15 EURO for 30 days play time

$34.99 for a GTC, that is 35 USD for 60 days play time

I am from Bulgaria.
1 $ = 1.44 BGN
€1 = 2 BGN

so should I pay 30 BGN for 30 days or pay 50 BGN for 60 days
What do you think?
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#772 - 2013-10-16 22:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Money Makin Mitch
Abditus Cularius wrote:
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
...should be outraged...


Alternatively, I knew iscorps were being given out like candy and never bought one.

I also find the idea of videogame outrage incredibly sad, which may have something to do with it.

you've not contributed a single constructive post in all these threads. you've done nothing but shill for Somer.

i think my explanation fits better.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#773 - 2013-10-16 22:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
CCP seem completely incapable of any decisive action here; the rabbit-in-headlights stare is amazing to see.

We're now presented with the news that the CSM spent 2 hours in discussion with CCP resulting in a decision of producing a survey to find out what the players think on the highly complicated and nuanced issue of "should CCP actually enforce its own rules?".

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#774 - 2013-10-16 22:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
You right I failed to stay frosty. I assumed after the last incident I would not have to deal with **** like this ever again. Now that I have had my eyes open and have taken up the cause it seems like a lot of groups have fallen off.


I am sorry goons for not paying attention. I am sorry eve players I failed to watch the company store. I put my trust in people and CCP and maybe that was what I did wrong. I know we wont burn JITA over this cause Somer has done a great job buying off the community and CCP. Most of you love to play it and some of you have won a lot of cool stuff. But I didn't start playing eve to see it get pimped out and abused by micro RMT. The only survey you need to fill out is clicking cancel account button. That should be enough.

1000 accounts = $150,000 dollars a year. I plan on closing 3 of mine tonight and will keep DNSBlack on until he get auction off. I already have 100 confirmed others. We may not make a dent into CCP but I guess this says it all

http://codgerville.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/lastgreatactofdefiance-1.gif

I am sorry my friends, truly I am cause I know the faces and stories of those at CCP more then most but you have crossed my line in the sand and I cannot continue support your company when it will not honor the EULA contract you agreed to enforce with in your game.
Frying Doom
#775 - 2013-10-16 22:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
A quick status report from the CSM side.

We had a 30 minute meeting with CCP Dolan on Monday about a CSM initiative to survey the community. The result of that meeting was constructive, and resulted in a 90 minute meeting Tuesday with CCP Dolan, CCP Navigator and CCP Guard.

During the second meeting, it was agreed that the first step in the process of resolving these issues is to get a better read on community opinions about acceptable practices.

To do this, CSM will be running two forum surveys, in a manner similar to our crowdsourcing initiatives. These will focus on Appropriate Fansite Incentives and Acceptable Fansite Business Models, and will be structured in a way that we hope will encourage good debate.

At the same time, CCP will be running identical surveys through their established subscriber survey methods, so that we have data on the opinions of the general community in addition to the forum community.

We are currently working with CCP to finalize the list of survey questions. We hope this will be completed in a few days, and the forum surveys will go live as soon as possible thereafter. However, things may slip a bit because of EVE Vegas.

CSM welcomes your input as we finalize the survey questions. Our current plan is that each question will be a statement, with 4 possible responses: "This is OK", "This is a grey-area", "This should not be allowed", and "I have no opinion".

Here are some sample statements to give you an idea of the style:

Fansite incentives:

* CCP can provide PLEX as prizes for contests on fansites.

* Fansites should receive incentives in proportion to their benefits to the community.

Business Models:

* I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me, they can give me ISK.

* I provide a service to the EVE community, and if they want to thank me, they can give me real money.

We are particularly interested in questions that explore the grey areas.

I will admit I do have some questions related to these surveys but the first thing I want to say is the fact I am not worried about CCP rigging the results. If they do it will be rather obvious and it will cost them more money than anything in the history of this game as the stench rises.

Now on to the survey.

Will CCP and the CSM be including in its survey the reason for the survey? For example the fact that CCP gave out ships valued at around half a trillion isk to a for profit site, that the site in question and CCP failed to disclose that this gift had been given (personally I don't see this as Somers fault, they were just cashing in the gift, CCP should have publicly disclosed this gift) and that this action effected the sandbox in which we all play. Also including how many of these ships were sold by Somer employees so that players can see the total effect to the sandbox. With a notation of how they once again did not bother to speak to the CSM, AGAIN.

or will it be a blind survey so they are more likely to get the answers that they want?

Now on to the questions.

The term "This is a grey area" should be removed, the last thing we need is ambiguity in this matter.

Now as to the questions.

I noticed you listed no questions differing community sites from for profit sites, (unless you mean the business models bit, at which point you should clearly state "for profit" as a community site can have a business model and not actually be for profit) these are two totally different beasts and would have massively different answers. Community sites and for profit sites should have seperate sections on the survey, for example I am all for CCP flying the hosts of Crossing Zebras, the RvB leaders or for that matter The Mittani (As leader of Goonswarm, not for having a game site, while game sites do need freebees as well and these should be disclosed to the playerbase as well), to the fan fest, paying for there tickets, rooms, airfares ect but I do not believe that a for profit site should be given anything. Look at the number of hours Xander put into this game prior to the CSM8 elections interviewing all of the prospective candidates, rewarding that kind of dedication is a wonderful idea. Paying anything to a site that only gives to the community so they increase their exposure and subsequently their profits is just ridiculous, they are already being paid or attempting to get paid for their time.

Also I noticed no mention of non-tradable items for gifts. Personally I like the idea of people getting gifts that they can not sell on but can use to show the community that they give and that they have been recognized. For example giving Chribba's little hi-sec mining barge a special skin or giving each CSM member a special ship, differing for each CSM.

The survey should cover items such as plex, ships, cash, fan fest tickets, plane fares, meals, soulbound items, web hosting and other incentives specifically focused on there possible effects to the sandbox.

So let me be clear on this community sites are sites operated by people for the good of the community and they are not trying to get reimbursed for their time. These are the sites CCP should be supporting, from my perspective.

My point on "For profit" businesses is easy to cover in a survey. Give them nothing.

For profit sites are trying to pay them selves for their time and are in it to make a profit, they may support the community in events but in most places that is called advertising. CCP should not in my opinion be supporting these businesses as they are already trying to support them selves.

Continued next post...

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#776 - 2013-10-16 22:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
The other thing that was not covered is transparency. Now I personally would like to see a web register available for all players to see, for all of the gifts that CCP gives out. This register to be updated before they give out these gifts for example "Ishukone Watch Scorpions 30 to Somer blink" and then list why they are being given them and a date a week in advance" or "50 plex for EvE Vegas to be given at random" with the reason promotional and a date a week in advance. This will make this whole thing transparent to the playerbase and make CCP think before it decides to hand out 300-600 billion in ship to a for profit site's employees.

A quick note on Somers RMT and the other RMT sites following the same pattern, personally I think they should just stop offering the fake convertible isk but given CCPs past record in relation to RMT and how they have never before been lenient. They must do what they have done before, otherwise they have condemned some peoples RMT while favoring others RMT because it used a slightly different model and the stench from that will clear the hall.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#777 - 2013-10-16 22:36:03 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The other thing that was not covered is transparency. Now I personally would like to see a web register available for all players to see, for all of the gifts that CCP gives out. This register to be updated before they give out these gifts for example "Ishukone Watch Scorpions 30 to Somer blink" and then list why they are being given them and a date a week in advance" or "50 plex for EvE Vegas to be given at random" with the reason promotional and a date a week in advance. This will make this whole thing transparent to the playerbase and make CCP think before it decides to hand out 300-600 billion in ship to a for profit site's employees.

A quick note on Somers RMT and the other RMT sites following the same pattern, personally I think they should just stop offering the fake convertible isk but given CCPs past record in relation to RMT and how they have never before been lenient. They must do what they have done before, otherwise they have condemned so peoples RMT while favoring others RMT because it used a slightly different model and the stench from that will clear the hall.



How dare you speak to CCP like a stakeholder. Shame on youEvil
Lucretia DeWinter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#778 - 2013-10-16 22:36:05 UTC
SOMER's lottery - fine and I have no issue with it.
SOMER publicising Markee Dragon - fine and I have no issue with it.
SOMER receiving their affiliate dollars for GTC sales referrals through their link - fine too.

Where it becomes an issue IMO is how SOMER operates blink credit and the GTC bonus scheme.

Essentially, SOMER is duping ISK and creating an infinite pool of EVE wealth from nothing. By tying this in with GTC sales, this is clearly an RMT transaction, although whether SOMER can be said to be directly selling in game items for cash is a matter for the investigation to decide. I personally don't think they are directly RMTing in game ISK/items, but by incentivising their own GTC sales through the bonus blink credit scheme, are compromising the spirit of anti-RMT clauses in the TOS/EULA.

What is also an issue is that CCP should not directly sponsor or support (overtly or secretly) any organisation with in game items, be they ships, ISK, PLEX or anything else that has a material effect or value in EVE. The whole rewarding fansites idea is noble at heart, but should be constrained to rewards that do not affect the integrity of EVE. Good examples of this have been proposed in this thread already - lore items, fluff rewards, publicity via Community Spotlight etc.

CCP's investigation of this issue will take time. With any investigation, discovery has to take place. This involves notifications, interviews, audits and most importantly, confidentiality instructions and possibly even legal holds.

This would prevent people form providing the more detailed answers we all want to see until the investigations are concluded and the results known.

Whilst we are all stakeholders as customers, relevant stakeholders is not a slight to us, just that it refers to the people who have ownership for systems, processes and departments involved. The survey information also has potential value to provide feedback for CCPs future direction on 3rd party rewards.



What I would like to see happen:

CCP strongly recommends that SOMER pauses their blink credit bonus scheme for GTC sales, pending further investigation with the clear message that continued operation will be viewed negatively should an investigation decide that SOMERs GTC operation is classed as RMT.

The CSM should remain heavily involved in discussions and the ongoing investigation and discovery process and maintain their own notes for later publication.

Should SOMER or any other organisation operating similarly in game incentives for GTC sales be classified as RMT, then the appropriate revocations and remediation be taken to remove those particular incentives.

Damage caused to in game integrity through introduction of items, ISK or other material in game resources be repaired or removed, with appropriate roll-back compensation to any uninvolved players.

Continued or persistent use of RMT incentives be dealt with to the full extent of the EULA/TOS including immediate and permanent bans and pursuit of 3rd party resources by appropriate measures, for example, DMCA intellectual property violations.

CCP and the CSM should independently provide as full disclosure of the investigative process and results as is legally and ethically possible.


Apologies for a wall of text, but I wanted to put my opinions forward for visibility.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#779 - 2013-10-16 23:38:21 UTC
Gentlepods,

Since people have taken it upon themselves to deliver some "realtalk", you will forgive me if I take the opportunity to do the same.

Participants in this thread should be aware that:

* This issue is not going to be resolved quickly. The problem was a long time in the making, and it will be months in the resolution, if for no other reason than there are significant legal issues CCP has to take into consideration. Furthermore, a quick resolution is unlikely to be one you will like.

* Raging and repeating your position at every opportunity is not constructive, and actively hurts your argument. All it does is sh*t up the thread, and drown out other voices. If you want to be taken seriously, you want to encourage broad discussion. Threads that have a high percentage of posts by a small number of posters are not taken seriously by anyone.

* The reason for the surveys -- both CSMs and CCPs -- is to gather more data from more members of the community. CSM needs that data in order to make the best possible arguments on your behalf; "the data says" is a better argument than "the opinion of my ass is".

I understand that people are upset. I am upset too -- my personal position is very similar to that of Argus Sorn. But giving in to your anger will not get you a good result; it just makes it easier to avoid addressing the merits of your arguments.

Best
Trebor

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Rex Jagger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#780 - 2013-10-16 23:39:19 UTC
This is such bullshit , *unsubs 3 accounts. Fix this ccp. I am severly dissappointed.