These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5861 - 2013-10-16 15:35:16 UTC
neuva wrote:
The Djego wrote:

Bastion is completely useless for Incs, you can easily spider tank VGs with marauders(it is however slower than doing the sites with 1-2 logis). Normal 60% webs are close to useless, nobody uses them really and as a hint the reason why nobody uses mjd in Incs because it is ******* useless. As for your grain of salt, go FC some Incs for a couple of months, try to beat ICU and other relative good channels with her contest setups(that means taking on max skilled pilots in 100-200B isk fleets in the site) and then talk about tactics in Incursions.



This. +1

Appereantly they did high level incursion internal testing ..yeah...

Way to go on promoting solo play in an mmo CCP. Without t2 resists, no logis, good luck with your skill intensive and expensive BS in highlevel incursions...

Please, dont say PvP, about a ship which has tractor bonus. Dont force people to use MJD. No one, i repeat, No one is going to say " Oh ****, I need a marauder if I want to use MJD!" ..and T1 BS already enjoys MJD, Dont force it with pathetic bonuses.

Give us Ships that work, not Schizophrenic Space Junk.




you do know pve means more then just incusions eh?

though i do agree with tech II resists... but not full resist only partial like the old field command ships... if you would like to see an example of what i am talking about look at evelopedia : https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Astarte ... now take those resists and put it on the kronos and now change the bastion to add the same resists as a DCU II... now both parties can take advantage of the ship.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#5862 - 2013-10-16 15:40:12 UTC
This thread makes a pretty convincing argument that highsec incursions were a mistake.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5863 - 2013-10-16 15:42:19 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


\I wonder Why is there no CSM approving and or voicing parse for these changes???


Pretty simple answer on that one. CSM is dominated by the null sec cartels, sprinkled with a couple wh players. Neither group had much interest on the Marauder class before, and certainly won't have any interest in them now. Of course, unless you live in a completely secure null sec enclave.


To be honest I heard the CSMs were having issues when trying to post here.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5864 - 2013-10-16 15:44:54 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
This thread makes a pretty convincing argument that highsec incursions were a mistake.


lol..

Or maybe a bastioned Marauder can tank an incursion long enough for the npcs to swap targets?

Has anyone considered that?

Not to mention, with the fits that many of us put on Marauders, there's not a whole lot more we can do to change how we fly incursions...

most I would do in my Golem is drop shield and cap booster for.... more resists?
Maybe shield expanders?
Drop bastion and put what in that high slot?


Might as well leave the tank and not have to rely on logistics.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#5865 - 2013-10-16 15:47:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference).

That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5866 - 2013-10-16 15:48:15 UTC
BTW CCP Geniuses, please elaborate on how Marauders will work in Incursions when you force boosters on-grid?
How will the Command ship MjD with the Marauders?

Because you have explained to us who wonderful the Bastion mode is and how we won't need logi's in Incursions anymore.
Guess you will have to give the Command ship a MjD bonus, or give Marauders 100 km range on reppers....

And this will of course be extended to any group doing L5's, or of course, for all those roaming gangs of Marauders looking for PvP and utilizing the Bastion module and MjD to its fullest extent.

Suddenly, your Command ship is 100 km from its repping ships.

As I said, pure genius.
You guys have really thought this through.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5867 - 2013-10-16 15:49:44 UTC
so has anyone tested to see if ganglinks work in Bastion mode?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5868 - 2013-10-16 15:51:11 UTC
Kul Mazuf wrote:
Changes are still **** Ytterbium

-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection
- increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place.
- Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss.
- Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE


Yup - as for Vargur - its a crying shame. The Kronos and Vargur dps is laughable.
Siddicus
Nation of Sidd
#5869 - 2013-10-16 15:51:24 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
BTW CCP Geniuses, please elaborate on how Marauders will work in Incursions when you force boosters on-grid?
How will the Command ship MjD with the Marauders?

Because you have explained to us who wonderful the Bastion mode is and how we won't need logi's in Incursions anymore.
Guess you will have to give the Command ship a MjD bonus, or give Marauders 100 km range on reppers....

And this will of course be extended to any group doing L5's, or of course, for all those roaming gangs of Marauders looking for PvP and utilizing the Bastion module and MjD to its fullest extent.

Suddenly, your Command ship is 100 km from its repping ships.

As I said, pure genius.
You guys have really thought this through.


You do realize you can do incursions without boosts right?


CCP you might want to think about bumping up your Pirate Battleship nerf to sooner rather than later. would do a great deal to quell many of the complaints.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5870 - 2013-10-16 15:51:26 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
Honestly, it would probably be better to remove the TP bonus for one that buffs the ship innately. Think about it: if a Golem is fighting a ship that is EWAR immune (I dunno, maybe from a Bastion Module ^.- ), then it totally loses out on this bonus (as well as a wasted midslot). Second, and I think it's a pretty salient point here, is that you guys are effectively removing a midslot on these Marauders by buffing MJD use on them so much. It's nice that the Golem gets a bonus to ewar; it just doesn't fit well, though, with the "new" Marauder (plus, it steps on Minmatari racial ewar preference).

That being said, even if you guys were to remove the TP bonus on the Golem, PLEASE keep the TP change of lower cycle time!!


I don't believe ships are immune to TP with ewar immunity..
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5871 - 2013-10-16 16:10:41 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Kul Mazuf wrote:
Changes are still **** Ytterbium

-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection
- increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place.
- Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss.
- Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE


Yup - as for Vargur - its a crying shame. The Kronos and Vargur dps is laughable.


Kronos has the same fire power as a normal megas guns.
neuva
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5872 - 2013-10-16 16:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: neuva
How hard can it be to adapt/rescale the Siege Module I into a Bastion Module I. Why force MJD? its a nice module, but nothing to be specialized on, unlike other modules (Interdiction Probes, Scanning etc)..We already use MJD when ever we see necessary.

Let the marauders be a proper PvE ship, goes siege mode in its respective(balanced damnit, balanced!) stats..So we players can decide where to use it and how to use it..even in PvP, you say, you implement Bastion as a stepping stone, then you force us to MJD, which to be honest gets a really krappy bonus..why would I need the reduce its cooldown even more if I can Tank forever, or slowboat/mwd or mjd my way without bonus?!?

Currently you are trying to specialize this krap into Bastion + MJD + Tractorlul.

Really? Why not treat it like a proper internet spaceship instead of mutating it into a "very spesific" way of playing..All you say is "YOU HAVE TO USE TEH SHIP BY MJD AND BASTION AND TRACTOR AND PLAY LIEK DIS!"

You know what, this is not specializing, its forcing a way of playing it...Just look at ANY other T2 ship below the BS line, name me one ship which suffers from serious Schizophrenia as the Proposed Marauders does.

Just make it use bastion nicely, and pat the stats on the shoulder by buffing bloody useful bonuses a bit, and leave us, the players to decide how to use it...

This is the first time in Eve history, CCP is forcing players to "play liek dis!".
marVLs
#5873 - 2013-10-16 16:22:44 UTC
Quick queston for CCP Ytterbium:

Do You plan to add T2 version of Bastion?

Because last times we get many new modules etc. but all of them are only in t1 version (even salvage drones...)
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#5874 - 2013-10-16 16:29:21 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Kul Mazuf wrote:
Changes are still **** Ytterbium

-Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection
- increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place.
- Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss.
- Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE


Yup - as for Vargur - its a crying shame. The Kronos and Vargur dps is laughable.


Not sure about the Kronos (I dislike hybrids), but the Vargur has the same paper DPS as a Maelstrom, but better applied thru tracking bonuses and falloff bonuses, using half the ammo.

After some EFT-warring, my new Vargur can almost match a Machariel paper DPS wise, (951 vs 927). Granted, I'm forcing the fit a bit on both and using implants to help compensate where compensation is needed.

As for incursions, the new 8 high-slot marauder can prove to be an interesting ship. Spider tanking, and forgo Bastion all together. Haven't tested it out, as there's not enough people willing to go into sisi and have marauders skills yet (knock knock, can we do something about it?). Finally, yes, pirate hulls are superior than marauders, but to be superior you have to have 2 battleship skills trained up. For a machariel to be effective, AWU5 is a must, projectile rigging 5 is a must, gallente and minmatar battleship 5 is a must.

I just find it a bit annoying that the vargur requires now more training for Bastion to work and MJD around, but well, I already invested into Marauders 5, might as well go all the way...

To the positive side though, thank you Ytterbium for listening to the buffer problems. I'll be sure to test how they fare now (deadspaced omni tank fit and not even 100k ehp was way too low). Also thank you for the drones. Now I can carry more light drones and salvage drones, without worrying that I'll run out quickly of sets of lights.

For missions I'm thinking triple salvager setup with the tractor structure dropped next to me. Gotta test these out.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5875 - 2013-10-16 16:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Quote:
CCP Ytterbium





  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support.



    • Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread Blink.


    why, o why, so much hate against our friends, logistic pilots?! What?
    Bubanni
    Corus Aerospace
    #5876 - 2013-10-16 16:36:00 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Harvey James wrote:
    Also Ytterbium
    -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


    Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

    Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


    • TP bonus:
      • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
      + Target painting affects a whole group of players
      - Require med slots in the first place

    • Explosion radius bonus:
      • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
      + Always applied as long as you shoot
      - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
      - Doesn't affect other players


    So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


    another + would be it would benefit much more from other peoples target painters or other modifiers vs the target = to a tracking bonus which is better if you ask me... if people need bonused target painters, recons or new eaf will be good enough

    Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #5877 - 2013-10-16 16:37:06 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Harvey James wrote:
    Also Ytterbium
    -have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


    Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

    Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


    • TP bonus:
      • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
      + Target painting affects a whole group of players
      - Require med slots in the first place

    • Explosion radius bonus:
      • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
      + Always applied as long as you shoot
      - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
      - Doesn't affect other players


    So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.



    I hope you realize that the "Uses a slot and fittings (you forgot the uses fittings)" is worht a lot of MINUSES when comapred to any of those other points.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Siddicus
    Nation of Sidd
    #5878 - 2013-10-16 16:39:34 UTC
    gascanu wrote:
    Quote:
    CCP Ytterbium





  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support.



    • Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread Blink.


    why, o why, so much hate against our friends, logistic pilots?! What?



    Because when it comes to logistics, there are only two states of being for incursions as far as I have seen:

    1) Not enough logistics, fleet waits for more.
    2) Too many logistics, people sitting around doing nothing.
    Serge SC
    The Valhalla Project
    #5879 - 2013-10-16 16:46:32 UTC
    Oh, I forgot to add something!!

    Please CCP, give your deisgners and artists something to do, and make so that the Vargur in Bastion doesn't look like I'm silly and forgot to move.

    Bastion transformations should be more obvious, like opening flats, or compacting the hull, or something. As it stands, the Vargur adds platings to the wingy btis (on a shield ship) and something under the bridge moves. Perhaps open some plates like the Golem too? Or Contract the hull "protecting" the exposed orange areas? Tucking in the engines (we're immobile anyways)? Popping the guns out? Something more obvious to the changes of the hull.

    Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
    gascanu
    Bearing Srl.
    #5880 - 2013-10-16 16:47:05 UTC
    Siddicus wrote:
    gascanu wrote:
    Quote:
    CCP Ytterbium





  • There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support.



    • Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread Blink.


    why, o why, so much hate against our friends, logistic pilots?! What?



    Because when it comes to logistics, there are only two states of being for incursions as far as I have seen:

    1) Not enough logistics, fleet waits for more.
    2) Too many logistics, people sitting around doing nothing.


    3) Ppl can fly both dps and logi so they can change ships when or what they need