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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Author
luredivino
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#5841 - 2013-10-16 14:48:48 UTC
They still have a massive drawback....Pirate battleships. Why would you pay a billion isk and have such a heavy skill investment for something that isn't as good as pirate battleships for the given role. They either need to be cheaper, or the skill investment needs to be reduced. There would have to be a massive nerf to the damage pirate battleships can do in order to make them worth using. You can't even use these ships in low or null security space because of the high chance one of the new interceptors will tackle them before they even come out of bastion, much less warp out. These will see the same limited use after the novelty of bastion wears off as they saw before....You don't need more tank for level 4s and they still can't run level 5s because of energy neutralizors and the high chance of death that comes from using them in low security.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5842 - 2013-10-16 14:48:57 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
  • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
  • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


\I wonder Why is there no CSM approving and or voicing parse for these changes???


Pretty simple answer on that one. CSM is dominated by the null sec cartels, sprinkled with a couple wh players. Neither group had much interest on the Marauder class before, and certainly won't have any interest in them now. Of course, unless you live in a completely secure null sec enclave.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5843 - 2013-10-16 14:50:29 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
  • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
  • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.



has CCP spoken about cap warfare immunity?

This is a major weak point of Marauders.

Is it intended, or since they can't receive reps/cap, are y'all considering cap warfare immunity?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5844 - 2013-10-16 14:51:36 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:

i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s


They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).




Another one of your delusions.
All those guys in Paladins and Kronos in incursions are doing wrong, right?
And the all Paladin/2 Oni fleet that mopped the floor with all the other armour fleets, and many shield fleets, that doesn't happen, right.

Give it up.

We all know that you are trolling, or recognize that these proposed changes wreck the class of boat. A class you have no intention of using, so your attempts a defending this abomination is because of the jollies you get on wrecking the game for others.


I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings.

The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs.

You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.



Errrr...been there on Sisi, have pushed them to the limit until they blow up.
And yeah, they are worse, much much worse off.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#5845 - 2013-10-16 14:52:52 UTC
Dear CCP Rise

How about you guys just add a new Marauder Hull (Tier 3 BS) to the game and stop trying to appeal to everyone with the current Marauders?
The way it seems now, the missionrunners will not be pleased and PvPers will be forced to snipe since without a web bonus they have no chance of keeping targets within their range before the Bastion cycle finishes.

Give those new Marauders a Web Bonus, but no MJD Reduction.
Make use of those sexy Tier 3 Hulls and the barely used Ship Developers like Rhoden shipyards.

You can make the current Marauders to be better at what they're doing now.
And the new ones to be good at what the currents are horrible at.

Quote:
My idea of a Rhoden Shipyards Hyperion

6 Highs. 4 Launcher Hardpoints -> 1 Utility High with Bastion Module
5 Mids - same as the T1 Hype
7 Lows

Role Bonus:
100% Damage Increase to Cruise Missiles/Torps

Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Armor Repair amount and
5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion radius per level

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% Bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage.
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level

Dronebay should be around 100m3 with a bandwidth of maybe 40-75

Gallente Missile BS and a red Hyperion Hull, pwetty pwease.


A Marauder like that can drop the bonus to MJD and Tractor Beams and would have to sacrifice a bit of it's cargo to prevent it from being unkillable if not neuted into oblivion.

If you actually read this I'd be happy with at least some feedback on why this is a terrible idea, because I fear that it is even if it makes perfect sense to me :)


Regards, TehCloud

My Condor costs less than that module!

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#5846 - 2013-10-16 14:57:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:

True dat. However if my memory serves me right, it has been upgraded to threadnaught since day one.


Most of it is just paper craft. The testing didn't start till the other week and most of the negative replies are from people who either have not tested them or want them to be like the pirate battleships.

I don't deny it. To remind, my point was that the length of the thread indicates only that there are people with opinions strong enough to generate thread of such length.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5847 - 2013-10-16 14:58:38 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:



has CCP spoken about cap warfare immunity?

This is a major weak point of Marauders.

Is it intended, or since they can't receive reps/cap, are y'all considering cap warfare immunity?


I would say intended. All the other ships that get E-war invulnerability have the same weakness to neuts.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5848 - 2013-10-16 14:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mioelnir
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?

  • We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.

Why does bastion mode so clearly favor optimal range weapon systems, ie. Rails, Beams, Pulse and (Artillery)?
At 25% optimal range (TC+script 15%, TE 10%), it is guaranteed a top spot in the stacking penalty chain, giving an actual benefit. But since the falloff bonus is also 25% and not the usual optimal-to-falloff progression of TCs and TEs, the bastion bonus to falloff loses against TC+script (30%), putting it in a low stacking penalty position.

You are worried about the pulse paladin, therefor you limit the modules effect on Blasters and Autocannons.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#5849 - 2013-10-16 15:00:25 UTC
Overall these changes seems pretty good, and while I see some of you complaining about the web bonus, keep in mind that some marauders like the Golem also have to fit a tank and MJD to their medslots while not even having 8 of them.

This said, I also understand Ytterbium's point about the benefits of having a TP instead of explosion radius bonus. But speaking of missile stats, wouldn't it be a GREAT idea to start talking about this damned missile computer/enhancer/remote missile computer that was planned some time ago ?

Because that's always the problem... How do you uniformly balance Marauders, and their interactions (or lack of) with remote tracking computers, when one of them is the black sheep and does not follow the same rules ?

How do you carefuly calibrate Marauder's DPS when, hopefully soon enough, a module (missile computer) might come and change everything ?

That's exactly the same problem than Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers : Creating a module with balanced stats, based on a weapon system (heavy missiles) that is clearly underpowered (I challenge you CCP to find intern metrics that contradicts me)... Means that when you rebalance Heavy missiles, you also have to rebalance a newly created module. That's a waiste of time.

Of course there is also the possibility of leaving them in their previous state of uselesness but what's the point then ?

Finally, I simply don't get CCP's point of view concerning Marauders in general. That's not related to your recent posts CCP Ytterbium, that's more a constant feeling :
1- Being worried about them being able to solo first waves of incursions with deadspace modules
2- Keeping an useless tractor beam bonus instead of buffing it, because at the same time the Marauder is turning into an IMMOBILE PLATFORM.
3- No variation of the bastion mode for structure bashing ? While at the same time making multimillion EHP structures in High sec bashable ?

Are you worried about having Marauders becoming too OP ? Come on ! This ship requires the same training time than a CARRIER and it costs almost the same thing ! It surely should desserve some awesomeness ! Even more given that it won't be able to tackle anything anyway since it can't move and is very vulnerable against ECM.

1- Tanking some incursions waves ? Given the price and skills, plus the fact that you fit DEADSPACE MODULES on it, why not ?
2- Want people to use this new tractor platform that you're making ? Well everyone that's not in a Marauder will probably tempted to use it anyway.
3- This one.. I can't even find a reason why not to do it.


So yes... Some things, I don't understand :D


PS : The only positive point that I find for the Golem now concerning its DPS (because other aspects like tank and the synergy with MJD are an awesome idea) is that at least, for once it does not have kinetic-specific bonuses, and it has some drones again. :)

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5850 - 2013-10-16 15:01:41 UTC
Bonjour mai ami. Please consider one slight change some people who do enjoy group pve. And from what I heard threw the grape vine pve in 0.0 is moving to a group concept.

Group pve usually depends on logi ships. Now the 30% to resist is great and I love it but that doesn't help the ship outside of bastion mode. But if you increased the current resistance to something simular that old field command ships got... this would make the ship much more viable for group oriented pve. Obviously the resistance bonus for the bastion would have to be reduced. I feel that standard damage control resist would work perfectly so 12% to shields and 15% to armor but I would keep hull at 30%...

I think this would appease both play styles of solo and group pve

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Valterra Craven
#5851 - 2013-10-16 15:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:


Why didn't you buff the fittings?

  • We estimate the CPU / PWG on them to be adequate. We are aware of some tight fittings, but we don't want those hulls to be able to easily fit a full rack of top tier turrets / launchers with Energy Neutralizers plus a full tank, as it would be quite over the top.




  • You can't fit a full rack of guns and tank right now even if you don't use neuts.... the fittings on these ships is stupid.

    [Golem, Short Range copy 1]
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Power Diagnostic System II

    100MN Microwarpdrive II
    X-Large Shield Booster II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II
    Thermic Dissipation Field II
    Kinetic Deflection Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Cap Recharger II

    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]

    [empty rig slot]
    [empty rig slot]

    That right there with all lvl 5 fittings skills doesn't fit... you are over on CPU and GRID, and there isn't a tractor, a salvager or a siege mod on the stupid thing.

    Nor even the change to MJD:
    [Golem, Short Range copy 1]
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Power Diagnostic System II

    Large Micro Jump Drive
    X-Large Shield Booster II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II
    Thermic Dissipation Field II
    Kinetic Deflection Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Cap Recharger II

    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]

    [empty rig slot]
    [empty rig slot]

    Again over on both

    This will not fit with a siege mod and isn't even "best guns"

    [Golem, Long Range PVE copy 1]
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Power Diagnostic System II

    100MN Afterburner II
    X-Large Shield Booster II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II
    Thermic Dissipation Field II
    Kinetic Deflection Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Cap Recharger II

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Salvager II
    Small Tractor Beam II
    [empty high slot]

    [empty rig slot]
    [empty rig slot]


    And then it will be even worse with this:
    [Golem, Long Range PVE copy 1]
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Power Diagnostic System II

    Large Micro Jump Drive
    X-Large Shield Booster II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II
    Thermic Dissipation Field II
    Kinetic Deflection Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Cap Recharger II

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Salvager II
    Small Tractor Beam II
    [empty high slot]

    [empty rig slot]
    [empty rig slot]
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    Mean Coalition
    #5852 - 2013-10-16 15:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
    TheFace Asano wrote:


    I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings.

    The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs.

    You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.


    Bastion is completely useless for Incs, you can easily spider tank VGs with marauders(it is however slower than doing the sites with 1-2 logis). Normal 60% webs are close to useless, nobody uses them really and as a hint the reason why nobody uses mjd in Incs because it is ******* useless. As for your grain of salt, go FC some Incs for a couple of months, try to beat ICU and other relative good channels with her contest setups(that means taking on max skilled pilots in 100-200B isk fleets in the site) and then talk about tactics in Incursions.

    Also since you don't know the web bonuses came from marauders, they put them on the serpentis hulls because they where useless like any blaster hull after the sledgehammer nerf in 2008(and blasters are still a joke compared to a working point blank dps weapon they where back in the days). Also please show me a single thread from the last 6 years where people complain that the web bonuses on marauders are OP, I am waiting.

    Joe Risalo wrote:

    Uber passive tanks require little attention.

    These ships are active tanks and drop quickly when not boosting/repping.


    You mean it is hard to pay attention to tank in my marauders, when I use 25% of what you use while doing the same stuff? Really?

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5853 - 2013-10-16 15:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
    The Djego wrote:


    Rant.


    Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into.

    Or use the MJD, jump out and snipe down the small stuff that chases you and enjoy the zero need for tracking.
    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    Mean Coalition
    #5854 - 2013-10-16 15:21:55 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:


    Rant.


    Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into.


    Big words for somebody that doesn't know how and what the Kronos did better then the Vindi so far. Also it is you that wants to turn the Kronos into something super niche and not useful, all things considered I rather would prefer it stays as it is.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #5855 - 2013-10-16 15:26:31 UTC
    The Djego wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:


    Rant.


    Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into.


    Big words for somebody that doesn't know how and what the Kronos did better then the Vindi so far. Also it is you that wants to turn the Kronos into something super niche and not useful, all things considered I rather would prefer it stays as it is.


    You want bonused web. That's the vindis job.

    You want an in your face blaster boat. That's the vindis job.

    The new kronos is no longer a poor copy of the vindi it is its own ship.
    neuva
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #5856 - 2013-10-16 15:29:06 UTC
    The Djego wrote:

    Bastion is completely useless for Incs, you can easily spider tank VGs with marauders(it is however slower than doing the sites with 1-2 logis). Normal 60% webs are close to useless, nobody uses them really and as a hint the reason why nobody uses mjd in Incs because it is ******* useless. As for your grain of salt, go FC some Incs for a couple of months, try to beat ICU and other relative good channels with her contest setups(that means taking on max skilled pilots in 100-200B isk fleets in the site) and then talk about tactics in Incursions.



    This. +1

    Appereantly they did high level incursion internal testing ..yeah...

    Way to go on promoting solo play in an mmo CCP. Without t2 resists, no logis, good luck with your skill intensive and expensive BS in highlevel incursions...

    Please, dont say PvP, about a ship which has tractor bonus. Dont force people to use MJD. No one, i repeat, No one is going to say " Oh ****, I need a marauder if I want to use MJD!" ..and T1 BS already enjoys MJD, Dont force it with pathetic bonuses.

    Give us Ships that work, not Schizophrenic Space Junk.


    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #5857 - 2013-10-16 15:30:35 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:

    The new kronos is no longer a poor copy of the vindi it is its own ship.


    indeed

    the kronos with 425 II with jav ammo shoots out to 80km... it turns rails into long range autocannons

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    Urkhan Law
    Black Rebel Rifter Club
    The Devil's Tattoo
    #5858 - 2013-10-16 15:30:36 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    WHy to give a FAKE 5 ms speed advantage for the vargur when he mass cancels it?
    WHY?


    Not empty quoting.

    The Djego
    Hellequin Inc.
    Mean Coalition
    #5859 - 2013-10-16 15:33:22 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    The Djego wrote:


    Rant.


    Just use a vindi, thats what you want to turn the kronos into.


    Big words for somebody that doesn't know how and what the Kronos did better then the Vindi so far. Also it is you that wants to turn the Kronos into something super niche and not useful, all things considered I rather would prefer it stays as it is.


    You want bonused web. That's the vindis job.

    You want an in your face blaster boat. That's the vindis job.

    The new kronos is no longer a poor copy of the vindi it is its own ship.


    The Serpentis hulls got the bonus from marauders, because they where useless without it. It is not the vindis job to web stuff down, it is just that the hull is **** poor as a blaster ship without it.

    You totally fail at reading comprehension, try again.

    The Kronos never was a poor copy of the Vindicator, but required a few touches on the drone bay since her introduction in 2007 to actually be the useful rail+sentry ship it was designed to be.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

    Kul Mazuf
    Prometheus Interplanetary Inc
    #5860 - 2013-10-16 15:34:05 UTC
    Changes are still **** Ytterbium

    -Increase locking range to near recon ship levels if you're talking about projection
    - increase tractor range if I'm going to be jumping a 100km all over the ******* place.
    - Give the kronos back it's 75 m3 bandwidth, or up the dps to compensate for this dps loss.
    - Don't ever try balancing ships again. PLEASE