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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#5821 - 2013-10-16 14:31:11 UTC
PvE is ridiculously easy already, why are CCP making it easier?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5822 - 2013-10-16 14:31:17 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?




People used to drop titans in level 5s and null anoms before the tracking nerf. They still drop supers in null anoms.

Yes people will use these ships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5823 - 2013-10-16 14:32:17 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
PvE is ridiculously easy already, why are CCP making it easier?


The changes are geared towards PvP. PvE gets buffed as a side effect.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5824 - 2013-10-16 14:32:42 UTC
Epic Rupture wrote:
Changes as they stand right now are pretty good. Can't really understand why there are so many incursion runners' tears here. Pirate Battleships, in terms of incursions, out class Muarders in every way pre-, and eventually, post-patch. Use the right ship. Stop being lazy and train the other battleship you need and be more helpful to your fleet.

In terms of PVP, it's something new and I'm excited to see it potential.


Sigh....you might want to re-examine your post.

1. Paladin's wipe the floor for any other armour set up, and many shield setups.
2. Marauder pilots have ALL the skills that a pirate BS pilots has, and then some. The pre-req's demand it.
3. Let's see how much you are gloating when pirate BS's are "rebalanced".
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5825 - 2013-10-16 14:32:56 UTC
The real problem with Marauders in incursions is if you're going to use them for Incursions, you have to have a fleet full of them. Pirate BSes and Marauders don't mix, the Pirate BS need remote reps and the Marauders don't. The main attraction of bringing Marauders is you can ditch all your logi pilots and increase DPS because all your ships can local tank full aggro. If you need webs, you can just have one or two dedicated webbing ships and have the Marauders remote rep them. Unlike say a Mach the web ship doesn't need to fly around everywhere so it can stay close in, in RR range.

The odds of being able to put together an Incursion fleet of Marauders are pretty thin, especially if you want all of the same type. Not a lot of people have AWU V, BS V, and T2 large guns trained.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5826 - 2013-10-16 14:33:56 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
The Djego wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.


It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.


It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times.


The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before.
WH pve, lvl 5 missions...

Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's.
If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.


A uber tank requires zero attention, that is the reason why people fit a uber tank in the first place. They can do WH and L5 with them atm to the problem is just that you need to utilize RR(what marauders can do very well).

As a hint, dangers for pve in L5 and WH is very trivial(it is very predictable, if you have to you can find a guide on how to do something in a few seconds using goggle) compared getting ganked by other players and this is actually the biggest problem to people that don't pay attention.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5827 - 2013-10-16 14:36:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?




People used to drop titans in level 5s and null anoms before the tracking nerf. They still drop supers in null anoms.

Yes people will use these ships.


Wow, you are a one-man propaganda team.
I would drop a Nyx into an anom too, if I was living in goon space, with intel channels telling me what is happening 20 jumps out, and I was far out of jump range of any hot drop.

But of course, in NPC null, that tactic of dropping a Nyx into an anom would be something that gets pilots kicked from corps.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5828 - 2013-10-16 14:36:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.


field command resist profile and make the bastion like a dcuii that way you can do rr if you want or solo tank if thats how you play... remember options are a good thing.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5829 - 2013-10-16 14:38:19 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?




People used to drop titans in level 5s and null anoms before the tracking nerf. They still drop supers in null anoms.

Yes people will use these ships.


Wow, you are a one-man propaganda team.
I would drop a Nyx into an anom too, if I was living in goon space, with intel channels telling me what is happening 20 jumps out, and I was far out of jump range of any hot drop.

But of course, in NPC null, that tactic of dropping a Nyx into an anom would be something that gets pilots kicked from corps.


Actually we dont do this because carrier ratting is dumb. Nyx ratting is a Russian thing.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5830 - 2013-10-16 14:38:52 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#5831 - 2013-10-16 14:39:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram.

Not exactly. As a mission runner I can tell you that I don't use webs on my Kronos, whether it's Railguns or Blasters fit. There are just better uses for that mid slot and I'll gladly trade this bonus for those coming with Rubicon.

And the length of the thread indicates only that so many people have strong, if contradictory, opinions of this ship class. Or rather, that some people are such opinionated. This way or another, it means that ANY balance update will **** someone.



The thread is long because its getting on for two months old.

True dat. However if my memory serves me right, it has been upgraded to threadnaught since day one.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5832 - 2013-10-16 14:39:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:

I think you guys got Marauders right this time (!!) These were never intended as short-range platforms, so I'm glad to see the web bonuses replaced by ones more applicable to their role. Even though they don't have full T2 resists, the enhanced resists, additional speed and hull buffs are welcome changes. KUDOS (!!)

(now if we could just change the color, hint, hint...)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#5833 - 2013-10-16 14:40:17 UTC
Epic Rupture wrote:
Changes as they stand right now are pretty good. Can't really understand why there are so many incursion runners' tears here. Pirate Battleships, in terms of incursions, out class Muarders in every way pre-, and eventually, post-patch. Use the right ship. Stop being lazy and train the other battleship you need and be more helpful to your fleet.

In terms of PVP, it's something new and I'm excited to see it potential.


You sir clearly do not understand a thing about incs and probably don't even run them
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5834 - 2013-10-16 14:41:29 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.


it would make sense you can't favour 1 out 4 ships ... besides they can still use a unbonused TP to great effect but at least its not compulsory like it is atm..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#5835 - 2013-10-16 14:44:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.



I wonder Why is there no CSM approving and or voicing parse for these changes???
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5836 - 2013-10-16 14:44:43 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post Smile.

Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:


  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.



Look, maybe you have some kind of difficulty with math.
You are NOT freeing up mid slots. You are TAKING THEM AWAY on Marauders.

Every word you type states clearly that we must use the MjD to get the full effect of the ship. That is one mid slot. And you NEED at least one more mid slot for cap recharging when using an active tank. Yes, I have tested this on Sisi and it is true. So that is 2 slots gone, at least, in the mids.

I would be more than happy to get onto Sisi with you, and actually test these ships. I can fly all 4.
Then you can show me whatever fit you have, and let's see how it actually performs compared to the ship today on TQ.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5837 - 2013-10-16 14:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • TP bonus:
    • + More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
    + Target painting affects a whole group of players
    - Require med slots in the first place

  • Explosion radius bonus:
    • + Doesn't require med slot in the first place
    + Always applied as long as you shoot
    - Static, cannot be influenced by itself
    - Doesn't affect other players


So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.

How about a +5% rate of fire for the Golem instead? Paladin gets a +5% damage bonus, Kronos gets a +5% damage bonus and Vargur gets a +5% rate of fire. The RNI still fills a role of applying damage more effectively (explosion radius bonus) and the SNI still benefits from a larger tank and increased shield resists.

I agree with suggested removal of the TP bonus from the Golem (this effectively frees up slots). Any ship can use TPs and benefit from them if so desired.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5838 - 2013-10-16 14:45:30 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:

True dat. However if my memory serves me right, it has been upgraded to threadnaught since day one.


Most of it is just paper craft. The testing didn't start till the other week and most of the negative replies are from people who either have not tested them or want them to be like the pirate battleships.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5839 - 2013-10-16 14:47:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:

i never sayid they should ravage s**t, all i'm saying is that bastion and this "rebalance" are actually nerfing this ship class for anything else except empire lvl 4s


They were useless outside of missions (and bad in many of the missions).




Another one of your delusions.
All those guys in Paladins and Kronos in incursions are doing wrong, right?
And the all Paladin/2 Oni fleet that mopped the floor with all the other armour fleets, and many shield fleets, that doesn't happen, right.

Give it up.

We all know that you are trolling, or recognize that these proposed changes wreck the class of boat. A class you have no intention of using, so your attempts a defending this abomination is because of the jollies you get on wrecking the game for others.


I personally don't run incursions, so take this with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are mostly complaining that you cannot use the ship the way you did before. It is changing. The hulls are gaining some of the nerf back, and will be almost the same as before with an extra high slot and extra fittings.

The web bonus would be too powerful for PVP. Waaaay too powerful as no ship but a dread or another maurader would have any options but run or bring a much bigger group. Cruisers can get under your guns in the current SiSi version, as can frigs.

You can now fit a MJD and kill frigs by jumping to distance in incursions. Your tactics will need to change, that doesn't automatically make them worse. Test server has free reign on fitting these ships out. Test out multiple fits and get them blown up to find their limitations. They should have limitations after all. If you still want bonused webs bring the Vindicator.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5840 - 2013-10-16 14:48:43 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
The Djego wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.


It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.


It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times.


The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before.
WH pve, lvl 5 missions...

Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's.
If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.


A uber tank requires zero attention, that is the reason why people fit a uber tank in the first place. They can do WH and L5 with them atm to the problem is just that you need to utilize RR(what marauders can do very well).

As a hint, dangers for pve in L5 and WH is very trivial(it is very predictable, if you have to you can find a guide on how to do something in a few seconds using goggle) compared getting ganked by other players and this is actually the biggest problem to people that don't pay attention.


Uber passive tanks require little attention.

These ships are active tanks and drop quickly when not boosting/repping.