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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5801 - 2013-10-16 14:08:04 UTC
Doed wrote:
Kronos is 5ms faster than the Paladin, but Paladin has less mass? what the duck?

Kronos still cant use its original 3 sentries, I can use 2 sentries or 5 medium drones(does ANYONE use medium drones for PVE? REALLY? SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!) Paladin is still superior.

Torp Golem is still garbage.

Vargur is still ass. Mach with 4 bouncers that moves at lightspeed when needed or an immobile crap-dps Vargur? HMM THOUGH ONE!

What exactly did you accomplish here? sort of kinda nothing.

I have always had lvl 4s as my ISK income in this game. From what Ive gathered youve also done some PVE.

But from the looks of it you really dont have a clue on how you should balance things. Give Kronos back its 3 sentries.

Fix Vargur somehow as you dont want to make Bastion Mode give it any falloff whatsoever so its stuck at 1163 dps with 75km falloff and 4km optimal, while stationary. this is just sad.

Golem and torps is the same issue.

If you want them to rely on their "LOL MAIN WEPPENS" Atleast make them do some sort of damage.

Still garbage outside of bastion. "wannabe" t2 resists. less EHP than faction/pirate BS (Which is kinda fine, if they had some resists to make up for overall less EHP, but its miniscule.)

TL;DR

If you arent running "insert x faction - Angels"

Paladin is great.

Kronos SUCKS

Golem sucks more

And Vargur sucks the most.

Good job. (irony)


Stop using other ships like pirate ships and use the pirate ships, they are better anyway.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5802 - 2013-10-16 14:09:18 UTC
The Djego wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.


It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.


It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times.


The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before.
WH pve, lvl 5 missions...

Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's.
If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#5803 - 2013-10-16 14:10:13 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:
do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram.

Not exactly. As a mission runner I can tell you that I don't use webs on my Kronos, whether it's Railguns or Blasters fit. There are just better uses for that mid slot and I'll gladly trade this bonus for those coming with Rubicon.

And the length of the thread indicates only that so many people have strong, if contradictory, opinions of this ship class. Or rather, that some people are such opinionated. This way or another, it means that ANY balance update will **** someone.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5804 - 2013-10-16 14:13:31 UTC
The problem with incursions is that they are designed so you have to fly a battleship and try to hit frigs doing 3km/s ....
its not real pvp in any sense of the word incursions are totally backwards .. they are broken and need fixing really don't blame Ytterbium for not catering to a broken system

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#5805 - 2013-10-16 14:13:53 UTC
I'm glad you are sticking with the (now improved) initial rebalance idea.
Can't wait to try them out!
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5806 - 2013-10-16 14:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Octoven wrote:
To be quite frank I agree with Dinsdale here, you truly do not understand incursion mechanics, Im not sure if I am surprised or sad that a dev would make such a ludicrous statement. I would love to see how your internal testing can slow a tama down doing 3500 m/s without webs, more importantly I would love to see how your guns track that. You may as well throw them at the tamas for all the damn good they do. It certainly would cause more DPS than shooting them. Drones are your only source of DPS.

Furthermore your non-nonchalant attitude toward to needing logistics in incursions is even more of an insane statement. You do realize that said logistics provide tracking links which you cant receive because your in bloody bastion mode. I think you should re-evaluate your statement and start listening to player feedback instead of your own assumptions.

Finally I would argue with you that taking webs away to not cater to a specific group of individuals (inc runners) to turn the ship into specialized **** for only a small group of people is only shifting WHO you are indeed catering too and to be honest that bit I do find rather offensive. I would expect better knowledge of game mechanics from a dev and certainly a better sense of be quite respectable to your player base.


If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.


I have one question.

In reguards to no t2 resists on the hull, and the belief that these ships suck outside of bastion...

Would it be possible to allow the base hull rep/boost bonus to also effect incoming logistics?

I.E. - Golem - 7.5% bonus to local shield boosts and incoming shield logistics per level


This wouldn't effect bastion mode, cause bastion still can't receive logistics.
This bonus would focus solely on fleets without using bastion..

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be OP.. If it was, then it would be OP for them to have the local bonus per level anyway..


Edit...

Oh, and how do y'all feel about cap warfare immunity?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5807 - 2013-10-16 14:14:58 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Silent Cyborg wrote:
do you not think seen as this forum thread is sooo long that you might be pissing off too many players and you might be wrong and should stop and re-evaluate the changes. Muarders are a good ship with the web bonuse for all roles in game, losing it is just going to kill the ship. who is going to pvp with a ship that can not defend itself. not even to a t1 frig with a scram.

Not exactly. As a mission runner I can tell you that I don't use webs on my Kronos, whether it's Railguns or Blasters fit. There are just better uses for that mid slot and I'll gladly trade this bonus for those coming with Rubicon.

And the length of the thread indicates only that so many people have strong, if contradictory, opinions of this ship class. Or rather, that some people are such opinionated. This way or another, it means that ANY balance update will **** someone.



The thread is long because its getting on for two months old.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#5808 - 2013-10-16 14:16:25 UTC
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5809 - 2013-10-16 14:17:24 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


I have one question.

In reguards to no t2 resists on the hull, and the belief that these ships suck outside of bastion...

Would it be possible to allow the base hull rep/boost bonus to also effect incoming logistics?

I.E. - Golem - 7.5% bonus to local shield boosts and incoming shield logistics per level


This wouldn't effect bastion mode, cause bastion still can't receive logistics.
This bonus would focus solely on fleets without using bastion..

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be OP.. If it was, then it would be OP for them to have the local bonus per level anyway..


It would be very OP. Unbonused ships can already tank the combined firepower of hundreds of battleships. Such fleets would be borderline impossible to stop.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5810 - 2013-10-16 14:17:35 UTC
Sephira Galamore wrote:
I'm glad you are sticking with the (now improved) initial rebalance idea.
Can't wait to try them out!


Get on test server... they're awesome.

Google Eve online test server and click on the Eve wiki link.
Will explain to you how to do test server without killing your TQ file.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#5811 - 2013-10-16 14:18:00 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Thatd be a bad idea.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5812 - 2013-10-16 14:20:14 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
The problem with incursions is that they are designed so you have to fly a battleship and try to hit frigs doing 3km/s ....
its not real pvp in any sense of the word incursions are totally backwards .. they are broken and need fixing really don't blame Ytterbium for not catering to a broken system


To be fair, CCP Ytterbium's tactic of MJD out and blap the small stuff as they chase is the best way of dealing with them.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5813 - 2013-10-16 14:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
If we weren't listening to player feedback, we wouldn't have modified the hulls to un-nerf them, or haven't spent the time to read through this thread or discussed Marauders for hours with the other Devs. We do respect your opinion, but Devs cannot please everyone in the community when rebalancing things in a live MMO. That's just the sad truth that we have to live with.

Now, we are not saying we are guaranteed 100% future-proof right regarding the previous statement. We said internal play testing showed us there were other ways for them in Incursions - we are willing to keep an open mind and openly admit we were wrong if those aren't used at all in Incursions when they go live. After all, we have been wrong before.

If the previous post was deemed offensive to the Incursion community, we do apologize and will tweak it in consequence. However, if they need to be further tweaked for Incursions, it will be after we can see some more hard live data on how they actually fare.


Well I am a Inc FC to and used to tell people every day that the stupid stuff they come up with doesn't work, because you kind of know what works and what not after a few years, flying and fcing nearly all gang compositions(from legion blitz, 11+1 contest setups, grid stuff that is based around 90% webs or contest setups that are based around instalock and alpha, static gangs, mwd fleets and what not). If you try this things on the live server you will get face raped by ICU or other channels with contest setups, because 11+1 one slot tanked dps will wish the floor with active tanked marauders, bastion is useless for bigger sites and the only reason marauders get used is that they are competitive, without being competitive you lose the pilots and everything falls apart.

Is it really so much to ask for to keep the current marauders in the game(even with all her issues) as 2. type of marauder? This is not only for Incs(also for most other PVE) but a lot of other applications(including pvping with 90% webs in ships that are not bricks) to where the old marauders are a lot better than the new ones.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5814 - 2013-10-16 14:23:02 UTC
Doed wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Thatd be a bad idea.


Agreed, that would mean the Golem would be given 2-3 extra mids for whatever.
Leaving the TP bonus means that they require the TPs instead of having tons of extra mids.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#5815 - 2013-10-16 14:25:04 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???


Sounds like a bad idea tbh.

The TP benefits your whole gang, the explo radius bonus only yourself. And it's not even as good as the TP bonus. Straight

Also, see post above mine.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5816 - 2013-10-16 14:25:12 UTC
Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5817 - 2013-10-16 14:25:51 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
The Djego wrote:

Joe Risalo wrote:
I don't get what all the QQ is about on the overtanking.

People complain about the overtank - The overtank is intended to allow them to perform in other areas where more tank is required.
Yes, they overtank lvl 4 missions. However, they're designed for pve, so why wouldn't they be able to overtank lvl 4's?
They overtank because their tank is designed for much larger engagements.
The fact that these ships can aggro an entire room without worrying about aggroes/triggers means that they do indeed clear rooms faster. When you're watching aggroes/triggers, you're actually going slower.


It is called being lazy, not paying attention, being unable to figure out the pve mechanics and want pve as brain afk as possible. It has nothing to do with doing pve effective or even remotely fast. Nobody that can do this would fit a 1k dps active tank on the hull since it is a utterly wast of slots and time, because you only need it if you are slow, not paying attention and ignoring the mechanics.


It doesn't work that way in Marauders... Their uber tank requires attention, you down targets in 1-5 volleys, and you have to MJD away to reduce tracking at times.

The uber tank allows these ships to be able to do things they could do before.
WH pve, lvl 5 missions...

Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be allowed to solo lvl 5's.
If this means they overtank lvl 4's... That's completely fair.


Do you seriously think that people will immobilize themselves for one minute cycles, in low sec (where the L5's are)? In a multi-billion ISK ship, that has minimal defences against super-fast interceptors?

You do realize that 1 Keres and 1 Sentinel will now be able to pin down a Marauder that is running solo in low sec?
Both the Keres and Sentinel will lock the Marauder long before it locks them. The Keres will damp the range of the Marauder, the sentinel will start neuting it, and both will kill the first 5 small drones that might be on the field. Any subsequent flights of drones sent out by the Marauder will not attack, because the Marauder has no lock, and that's that.

The Marauder is pinned down, until heavier ships show up to kill it.

Hell, one inty will likely get under the guns, and easily speed-tank the guns because of the removal of the web bonus, while shooting any drones that can catch it.

No one will use these boats in low sec, nor wormholes, nor in high sec when at war, nor in high sec near gankers, nor ANY incursion, nor in NPC null sec, nor outside any non-secure null sec enclave.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5818 - 2013-10-16 14:26:24 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks?


less of it has rusted so its heavier.
Epic Rupture
Trident Holdings
#5819 - 2013-10-16 14:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Epic Rupture
Changes as they stand right now are pretty good. Can't really understand why there are so many incursion runners' tears here. Pirate Battleships, in terms of incursions, out class Muarders in every way pre-, and eventually, post-patch. Use the right ship. Stop being lazy and train the other battleship you need and be more helpful to your fleet.

In terms of PVP, it's something new and I'm excited to see it potential.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#5820 - 2013-10-16 14:26:52 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Any reason why the vargur has the highest mass of all these ships? Its tech 2 yeah, its still minmatar tech 2. Slightly less rust. Why is it heavier then amarr and caldari bricks?


Because it's made of good old solid steel while the caldari bricks are made of very high tech very light weight composite materials. Blink

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.