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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#641 - 2013-10-15 05:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
I'm just glad I never got around to ordering the new collector's edition Cool

Bad enough my accounts had all been paid up just a few days before CCP started "blowing" (see sig.) Evil



I bought the collector's edition. The USB hub will be good for something I guess. Or, maybe I can get enough for it on ebay to pay Chris Roberts for a "rear admiral" package.

If I am going to play a game with RMT'ing, might as well throw in with one that is as shamelessly blatant as Star Citizen.


As for your sig, I've updated a bit:

"All the sand has blown away... now it's just a box... full of %*#$."

(T-shirts anyone?)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#642 - 2013-10-15 07:19:08 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:


I bought the collector's edition. The USB hub will be good for something I guess. Or, maybe I can get enough for it on ebay to pay Chris Roberts for a "rear admiral" package.




This is unlikely. I have got that read admiral package and had to shell out $275 to get it. It's unlikely you'll get so much with an hub thingie, expecially if you watch around and notice how EvE is despised everywhere (and thus it's collectibles). In SC there are whole threads about asking that the game WILL be different than EvE.

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adarma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#643 - 2013-10-15 08:44:43 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Argus Sorn wrote:


I bought the collector's edition. The USB hub will be good for something I guess. Or, maybe I can get enough for it on ebay to pay Chris Roberts for a "rear admiral" package.




This is unlikely. I have got that read admiral package and had to shell out $275 to get it. It's unlikely you'll get so much with an hub thingie, expecially if you watch around and notice how EvE is despised everywhere (and thus it's collectibles). In SC there are whole threads about asking that the game WILL be different than EvE.



I can understand people with a bad taste from EVE. For some, it can become a second job; a job for which some sweat hard to pay for and ironically on which some others milk easy isk and (very possibly) cash... which brings us back to the topic of the thread.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#644 - 2013-10-15 10:06:39 UTC
Maximilian Akora wrote:
You don't need policy, policy is for people who lack common sense and/or a decent understanding of the subject at hand. All you need is someone at CCP who understands EVE and its history to realise that CCP can't play footsie with any political or for profit entity within EVE. It's not difficult, you don't need rules and you don't need to have an IQ of 135 for it.
I can't really agree with you here. Common sense is a treacherous thing. Common sense might tell you that "rewarding players who contribute something extraordinary to the game" is a good thing. Because it certainly looks right and positive at first glance. Only when you think a bit more thoroughly about it you might find the inherent problems which can make it a negative thing.

And it's not enough to have "someone at CCP who understands", because I'm sure there are a bunch of people there who understand why it wasn't a good thing to do. Problem is: they were not involved. And policy making is exactly this, involving as many people with as many arguments as possible to come up with a well thought-out policy instead of relying on individual employee's common sense. Of course this process takes some time, but I'm willing to wait a bit in order to get it done properly.

That said, little updates are never a bad thing even if there's not much new to tell.

Quote:
And if there's an "if in doubt" moment going on then CCP created a think tank a while back to help them with these "difficult" issues, it's called the CSM. I'm fairly sure the vast majority of current and past CSM members would within one second realise the possible "oops" this whole thing would turn in to, and suggest to CCP to refrain from these kinds of actions.
Yeah, without a doubt CSM should've been consulted about this and should generally be consulted more often. I just have to point out that even some of the CSM members' common sense didn't tell them immediately that this incident was wrong. Some of them agreed it was wrong from the beginning, at least one of them listened to arguments and changed his opinion and AFAICS one of them still thinks everything done was alright. So even they might need some time and discussion sometimes to come up with the "right" common sense. Smile
Miss Ladybird
Doomheim
#645 - 2013-10-15 10:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Ladybird
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=285907&find=unread


My thread got Ignore-locked.


Apparently I am supposed to keep discussion in this thread, as if I might get an answer to my question?


CAN I COPY SOMERBLINK?



I want to sell ladybird credits for real life cash (like blink credits). The ladybird credits can be redeemed with me in game for ships.


I just wanted to ask CCP before doing this as I know RMT is bannable


PS: They seem to be ignoring and locking all threads that try to get to the bottom of why SOMERblink is being permitted to perpetuate a RMT business. How come?
The Legendary Soldier
United.
#646 - 2013-10-15 11:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: The Legendary Soldier
Miss Ladybird wrote:


PS: They seem to be ignoring and locking all threads that try to get to the bottom of why SOMERblink is being permitted to perpetuate a RMT business. How come?


ROCK > CCP < HARDPLACE

or if you prefer...

DEVIL > CCP < DEEP BLUE SEA

Need to place a high-sec POS? Premade corps for sale, or your corps standings boosted. Trading since January 2012. Many corps sold/boosted - see my thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63128&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#647 - 2013-10-15 11:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
expecially if you watch around and notice how EvE is despised everywhere (and thus it's collectibles). In SC there are whole threads about asking that the game WILL be different than EvE.

I think you're getting it wrong. Those who don't like eve either have different taste for games (like elf-fans, or spacecraft-FPS fans) or don't even have enough brains/patience to get past the tutorials and find their place to have fun: Eve has a relatively high barrier to entry, that's a known fact, and in my opinion it's a good thing.

Regarding spacecraft-FPS part, I'm waiting for the day when ccp connects Valkyrie to Eve (like piloted fighter drones etc), and for the day when they introduce WIS + ruined station exploration.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#648 - 2013-10-15 11:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
First I agree that there needs to be a policy, as the mistake in the first place is to rely on "common sense". I work in the medical field, and we have risk management folks and institutional ethics folks who's very job is to approve of certain relationships with other organizations to be sure no conflicts of interest exist. Clearly CCP also needs someone to review these sorts of things from an ethical standpoint. That requires not only policy but a department of folks which they may or may not have. The CSM can HELP, but remember that 'popular' opinion may not always equate to 'ethically right' (such as CCP Guard's assertion that they were correct in what they did due to the popularity of SOMERblink).Ethical clarity does not, unfortunately, come naturally to some folks - and to be fair some issues can be complicated.

As for the rock and a hard place - this isn't so difficult. The fact is, that what comes hard in ethics is not necessarily deciding what is right, but simply doing what you decide. The answers here are easy - acting on them them is only hard if CCP feels intimidated by SOMERblink. But the fact is, they are RMT'ing and they should be dealt with the same as any other RMT group. CCP needs to remain "above the fray" or they cannot be trusted to properly adjudicate their own game. It isn't difficult, you just need to do it.


Reminds me of something I once heard:


"Honor isn't about making the right choices. It's about dealing with the consequences." - Midori Koto


"The moment you lose your honor, that's when your learn the hard way. Your choice, ALWAYS come back around." - CCP
Josef Djugashvilis
#649 - 2013-10-15 12:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
'Common sense', how you just 'know' the world works when you are 18.

I think that the length of time CCP is taking to respond, is an indication that they are talking all the relevant issues very seriously.

This is not a signature.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#650 - 2013-10-15 12:56:39 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think that the length of time CCP is taking to respond, is an indication that they are talking all the relevant issues very seriously.


And I think they've decided to let this entire issue quietly die and never speak of it again, now that the post frequency about it has diminished.
Frying Doom
#651 - 2013-10-15 13:01:15 UTC
Look at the number of views, people are watching this thread.

I will admit if I was CCP, I would be looking for a scape goat. They screwed this one up badly.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Rammix
TheMurk
#652 - 2013-10-15 13:08:38 UTC
This thread is rolling down towards absurd and hysteria.
I think it should be locked.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#653 - 2013-10-15 13:54:03 UTC
Thought I would just post this here, since I think it's a valid theory that warrants an answer from CCP:

An in depth explanation as to why SOMER's sceme is deemed legal would be nice, CCP. I understand to confusion it brings to some. But the process is simply this:

1. You buy a GTC from party A (Markee Dragon).
2. Party A then pays a referral commission to party B (SOMER Blink).
3. Party B then gives you 200m in Blink Credit which can be used to play Blinks.
4. Unless you're absolutely stupid/unlucky you will will always win at least something.
5. You cash out the ISK to EVE Online.

You're indirectly giving SOMER Blink money so they can indirectly give you ISK. That's what it basically comes down to and it's probably those two indirectly's that make the entire thing legal.

The transaction between the player and Markee Dragon is legal.
The transaction between Markee Dragon and SOMER is legal.
The transaction between SOMER and the player is legal.

It's really quite an ingenious sceme that treads the boundaries of the EULA very narrowly. The odds of CCP making a complete 180 after all this and declaring this illegal are extremely low. It would mean CCP gave trillions upon trillions of ISK to an RMT sceme so it's very unlikely they will ever say this is illegal.

However, the thing I would like to know is how much Markee Dragon and the guys running SOMER are related to each other? Is SOMER really just using Markee as an affiliate or is there some deeper hidden agreement between them?

Given that Markee Dragon has a huge reputation for running RMT scemes for other MMO's and his name now AGAIN pops up with what is deemed to be an RMT sceme by many players, I wonder if CCP is fully aware of exactly how SOMER and Markee are connected. Some investigation into this is warranted if you ask me. Can CCP confirm, through cross checking IP and mail adresses, that Markee Dragon and SOMER are not actually the same person?

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DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#654 - 2013-10-15 14:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
Argus Sorn wrote:
First I agree that there needs to be a policy, as the mistake in the first place is to rely on "common sense". I work in the medical field, and we have risk management folks and institutional ethics folks who's very job is to approve of certain relationships with other organizations to be sure no conflicts of interest exist. Clearly CCP also needs someone to review these sorts of things from an ethical standpoint. That requires not only policy but a department of folks which they may or may not have. The CSM can HELP, but remember that 'popular' opinion may not always equate to 'ethically right' (such as CCP Guard's assertion that they were correct in what they did due to the popularity of SOMERblink).Ethical clarity does not, unfortunately, come naturally to some folks - and to be fair some issues can be complicated.

As for the rock and a hard place - this isn't so difficult. The fact is, that what comes hard in ethics is not necessarily deciding what is right, but simply doing what you decide. The answers here are easy - acting on them them is only hard if CCP feels intimidated by SOMERblink. But the fact is, they are RMT'ing and they should be dealt with the same as any other RMT group. CCP needs to remain "above the fray" or they cannot be trusted to properly adjudicate their own game. It isn't difficult, you just need to do it.


Reminds me of something I once heard:


"Honor isn't about making the right choices. It's about dealing with the consequences." - Midori Koto


"The moment you lose your honor, that's when your learn the hard way. Your choice, ALWAYS come back around." - CCP


1. From your friend on the other side of the bench well said.

2. To all those who think this is going away or think this is being swept under the rug; Stay frosty it isn't. We hold the final vote here as players. I am willing to give CCP a very long rope, I just hop[e they know who to hang with it.

3. As a player base there is no connection between EVE VEGAS and Somer. At least there has been no connection established ny either party. The connection is thru CCP. EVE vegas is happening and Iam excited for it and hope it is an awsome time for all eve players. This issue is seperate from it in the sense CCP Community DEVPIMPED out Somer for more GTC sales knowing we would all buy them from him cause of the free 200 blink credits. This increase in GTC sales helped CCP probly pay for and justify sending people to vegas. What they didnt understand was they were destroying the sandbox and there creditbilty.

4. Conclusion: EVE players stay frosty the time to send your vote in is not at hand yet. Meetings are happening and I hope CCP finds the middle ground and a good solution that all of us can agree on and then continue moving forward. I have my list of solutions I would like to see and if I feel as paying customer CCP hasn't done the right thing I can vote, If they do the right thing then then DNSBlack will continue to do business with this company.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#655 - 2013-10-15 15:13:04 UTC
Rammix wrote:

I think you're getting it wrong. Those who don't like eve either have different taste for games (like elf-fans, or spacecraft-FPS fans) or don't even have enough brains/patience to get past the tutorials and find their place to have fun: Eve has a relatively high barrier to entry, that's a known fact, and in my opinion it's a good thing.

Regarding spacecraft-FPS part, I'm waiting for the day when ccp connects Valkyrie to Eve (like piloted fighter drones etc), and for the day when they introduce WIS + ruined station exploration.


No, the guys posting in there are loudly asking that:

- there won't be capital ships (see EvE "have a supercaps hotdrop or don't undock" phenomenon).

- asshats are promptly banned.

- bigger blobs are not the mainstream way to win.

- there are more accurate physics mechanics

and a number of other points.


I don't see any difficulty at understanding / different taste of EvE or lack of braincells, they just want another game. A non EvE.

In my personal case I have always wanted to play more an X-Wing style than "clicky clicky submarines sub sim"
I always loathed RNG => ECM crapola mechanics.
I always despised a*holes having complete free reign, because "I will do you whatever abuse I want till the police comes to stop me" (which in EvE won't happen).
I always found highly unrealistic to see huge fleets of ships that were meant to be super-rare, (by the lore) a show of power only 2-3 alliances could muster.
I always found annoying that every free MMO allows people to dress / wear something unique but in EvE you can't even have a decal.
Finally, I have always failed to understand why there's no consequences for actions. Whatever you do, you are always a disposable alt reroll away to a fresh restart. This makes impossible to elevate EvE to higher standards, to form beyond caveman infrastructures based on responsability and trust (with consequences).
10 years later and EvE still fails to have sandbox structures like player driven banks, financial markets (speaking of my sector), functioning stocks.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kate stark
#656 - 2013-10-15 16:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think that the length of time CCP is taking to respond, is an indication that they are talking all the relevant issues very seriously.


alternatively it's a function of how little care is being given in iceland.

we've gone from guard posting frequently, to silence. "we're going to take this issue more seriously by ignoring it!"

hmm seems the filter isn't working today

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#657 - 2013-10-15 16:42:28 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think that the length of time CCP is taking to respond, is an indication that they are talking all the relevant issues very seriously.


alternatively it's a function of how little care is being given in iceland.

we've gone from guard posting frequently, to silence. "we're going to take this issue more seriously by ignoring it!"

hmm seems the filter isn't working today

Rabble rabble rabble!

Who cares if we have to wait a week or two to get an answer? This has been going on for years! If they get the answer wrong... I don't know how people will react. Don't you want them to get it right?

Standing around yelling "rabble rabble rabble" isn't going to help anything.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Din Chao
#658 - 2013-10-15 16:52:42 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
I'm just glad I never got around to ordering the new collector's edition Cool

Not so lucky. I'll use the hub, and I'm sure the book is cool. But I still feel like I got scammed by CCP in the long run...
Kate stark
#659 - 2013-10-15 17:32:04 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I think that the length of time CCP is taking to respond, is an indication that they are talking all the relevant issues very seriously.


alternatively it's a function of how little care is being given in iceland.

we've gone from guard posting frequently, to silence. "we're going to take this issue more seriously by ignoring it!"

hmm seems the filter isn't working today

Rabble rabble rabble!

Who cares if we have to wait a week or two to get an answer? This has been going on for years! If they get the answer wrong... I don't know how people will react. Don't you want them to get it right?

Standing around yelling "rabble rabble rabble" isn't going to help anything.


clearly you can't read. i'm not asking for an answer; i'm asking for an update.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#660 - 2013-10-15 17:52:30 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
clearly you can't read. i'm not asking for an answer; i'm asking for an update.

Yes. I am totally illiterate. I cannot read or write. This deficiency is clear. Your analysis is sound.

Signatures should be used responsibly...