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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Large Collidable Object
morons.
#601 - 2013-10-13 21:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


And I just pointed out how PLEX are a non ISK faucet like scorpions are, and did not say it was a good idea.



Scorpions aren't an isk faucet either - isk faucets are mechanics spawning isk into eves economy out of nothing, such as bounties, mission rewards, blue loot or insurance.

However, due to the fact they can't be built by players, their supply can't be predicted by supply and demand, but arbitrary 'community' team decisions, rendering them highly volatile speculation objects, ending up as completely disconnected to a player driven economy.

Now the people winning them at the poker tournament might have thought they received unique items.

When the Somer team realized they successfully scammed CCP, they decided to keep it secret because they knew an RMT gambling site receiving them for doing what an RMT gambling site does would let their value plummet.

Somer actually profits from CCPs system both ways - newbs buy plex from them because they get an additional chance to win that oh-so expensive ship, bittervets use it to cash out at least a fraction of the isk they invested.

The dividend goes to Somer with the typical casino 'zero - bank wins' percentage as an icing on the cake.

Good Job Somer., CCP fell for it, pass the cost on to the user and end up rewarding Somer for it twice in a row, whereas they and their possible follow-up organization should have been banned twice in a row, associated CCP employees having being fired for unethical conduct and breaking the EULA in multiple occasions.

Wow - just wow...

And I thought I was a drunk moron.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#602 - 2013-10-13 21:52:22 UTC
2 personal attack posts, an off-topic post, a ranting post, and a moderation discussion post have been removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
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ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#603 - 2013-10-13 22:29:27 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:

Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? Give no personal rewards and only prizes? Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients can’t cash out? List all rewards publicly?

That’s it for now, let us know your thoughts.


Items such as the memorabilia things in the "time capsule", would reward people with a permanent reminder of their impact on the EVE world.

Those things like the "Piece of Steve", relating to the first Titan shot down, or the "Assassination Contract - Mirial", or the "Band of Brothers Director Key". Souvenir items that don't do anything much ingame, beside exist.

Those sorts of items would be perfectly fine, to reward people for contributing.

Or inspace monuments, such as was done in the past, e.g. the Jita Monument originally commemorated a competition between players, yes ?

Monuments and souvenir items, people would have far fewer issues with, than things that have a definable ISK value.


Kinda late, but posting to say I like this approach. I like the idea of in-game rewards, but I'm not comfortable with giving out stuff that has ISK value. The above seems like a good solution.
Rammix
TheMurk
#604 - 2013-10-13 22:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Delen Ormand wrote:
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:

Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? Give no personal rewards and only prizes? Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients can’t cash out? List all rewards publicly?

That’s it for now, let us know your thoughts.


Items such as the memorabilia things in the "time capsule", would reward people with a permanent reminder of their impact on the EVE world.

Those things like the "Piece of Steve", relating to the first Titan shot down, or the "Assassination Contract - Mirial", or the "Band of Brothers Director Key". Souvenir items that don't do anything much ingame, beside exist.

Those sorts of items would be perfectly fine, to reward people for contributing.

Or inspace monuments, such as was done in the past, e.g. the Jita Monument originally commemorated a competition between players, yes ?

Monuments and souvenir items, people would have far fewer issues with, than things that have a definable ISK value.


Kinda late, but posting to say I like this approach. I like the idea of in-game rewards, but I'm not comfortable with giving out stuff that has ISK value. The above seems like a good solution.

Yeah, right.
And to try to draw attention once more: drones deserve a monument. They've done much more than somer, BTW. Big smile

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#605 - 2013-10-13 22:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


And I just pointed out how PLEX are a non ISK faucet like scorpions are, and did not say it was a good idea.



Scorpions aren't an isk faucet either - isk faucets are mechanics spawning isk into eves economy out of nothing, such as bounties, mission rewards, blue loot or insurance.


I think you misread my statement and it's my fault because of my poor English.
I should have written:

"And I just pointed out how PLEX are a non ISK faucet like scorpions are (not an ISK faucet), and did not say it was a good idea."

In my tongue the parenthesis bit may be omitted and is implied. I realize English might work differently than that.


Large Collidable Object wrote:

However, due to the fact they can't be built by players, their supply can't be predicted by supply and demand, but arbitrary 'community' team decisions, rendering them highly volatile speculation objects, ending up as completely disconnected to a player driven economy.


And here you are technically wrong. Everything, even State Ravens are subject to supply and demand PLUS speculation and ends up connected to the players economy. Speculation is not exactly an heterogenous factor vs supply and demand, it's an emotional factor that overlays them.

Let's say that demand can't be met by supply (instead of "predicted", prediction is impossible to begin with).

Edit: and that's technically wrong as well, because if even 1 ship ever changed hands, then supply met demand and price discovery begun to form.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Sean DT
Revered Mining Corp
#606 - 2013-10-14 00:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean DT
sally Deninard wrote:
I really still am no clearer on this matter at all.
The problem of the scorpions is that the award could be classed as "over the top and plain odd " as compared to other in game organisations.
Eve uni for example does good things.... but you don`t give EVERY SINGLE eve uni member a free ship.

As for the lottery, much the same. You effectively custom skinned a ship for SOMER, it`s just over the top and makes it smell of corruption.
The fanfest prizes too, each trip could fund Eve radio(which relies on paying subscribers to survive) for months. It just seems odd?

This is my most major question.
Some players could not compete on the somer site due to somers own 3rd party toc`s and banning. The CSM told you this and you ignored them indirectly shutting out the opportunity to win these prizes.
Why did you ignore the csm on this matter and what are you going to do for the players that could not compete on the somer site?

to quote from the csm thread
"However, the requirement that one must be a member of SOMER Blink in order to participate remains, and for a lottery with such significant prizes, is very troubling to us. Furthermore, the structure of the lottery, which encourages and rewards extensive use of SOMER Blink, may raise legal concerns in some jurisdictions. For example, in the United States, commercial lotteries cannot require the purchase of a product or service in order to receive an entry.

For this reason, we strongly suggest that the entry mechanic be adjusted as follows:

1) Members of SOMER Blink are automatically entered into the lottery and receive one ticket, regardless of how much they use the site.

2) An alternate method (such as posting in a particular thread) be used to allow people to enter who do not wish to become a member of SOMER Blink."



Wow I feel dizzy now. I actually managed to read through all 31 pages of this thread!
I don't have a very big beef with CCP handing out these rewards, or with Somer (I play there, loose and win a lot of ISK although sadly mostly loose. but it's fun and well-run. I have no way of knowing if the mechanics behind the blinks are fair, but the staff payout prizes quicker than I can say blink whenever you actually do win something).

I think it's great to see the many thoughtful and considered replies from CCP through CCP Guard, thanks for that!

I do feel that 3 of the most interesting posts in this entire 31 page thread have been overlooked by CCP Guard (understandably so).

The post I find most interesting and relevant in the thread and which have not been addressed by CCP yet are:

Page 1: Maximus Andendare #3Posted: 2013.10.10 18:38

Page 9: Sally Deninard #174Posted: 2013.10.10 21:44 (the post I have quoted above).

Page 12: Kuni Oichi #232Posted: 2013.10.11 01:10

Most of the posts in the 31 page thread have been answered repeatedly and patiently by CCP Guard but there are several points in the 3 posts mentioned above that have not been answered yet .


I think it would be really interesting if CCP Guard or CCP could give an answer (boiled down) to the points in these 3 posts . I would be really curious to see it, thanks! :-)

And lastly, thanks for a great game, for providing support to community events (even if improvements can be made), and for taking the time to address player concerns in a thread like this! o7
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#607 - 2013-10-14 03:43:31 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:

...List all rewards publicly?...
-snip-
Secretly...nothing. And what we've given out as rewards or prizes doesn't generally come in big bundles which is one of the key reasons eyebrows were raised over this incident.

It's worth keeping in mind that Internal Affairs has complete oversight over every single item spawned or transferred on our server and monitors all staff account activity closely as is their purpose.

I think a public list of all rewards is definitely the next logical step, and the IA department would seem to be the right ones to make it available. Make it so.

There is no reason the gift needs to be private, but what people do with their rewards is their business.
"X to SOMER Blink (corporation); Quantity Y; Reason: Z" should be the end of it. That is probably very much the same data as the "ticket" request to spawn the items in the first place.

I don't especially care that they allocated one ship per employee, but since that appears to be exactly how the numbers are chosen, the reason can reflect "Y employees".

Digital items are duty-free. Smile I can't imagine the sheer expense and logistical nightmare of only out-of-game rewards. Whose responsibility is it to ship them? Nothing besides CCP to each (worldwide) player makes any sense. How much overhead will it add to the company to deal with claims of lost items, undelivered and returned packages... that will simply drive costs up in the long run and reduce the frequency that rewards are given.

Do not actively tank my patience.
Lelira Cirim
Doomheim
#608 - 2013-10-14 03:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelira Cirim
Rammix wrote:
Any form of legal RMT will provoke much more botting, macrosing etc activity. People should keep their RL business out of game worlds. If there are some games that allow RMT for players - those games are sh*t, I'm absolutely sure. When people mix their RL income with online sandbox-style game - you can't keep healthy virtual world.
Wot, are you saying Second Life isn't a healthy virtual world? RollBlink
That's what's behind the captain's quarters door you know. First comes the bar you can hang out at, then come drink recipes and crafting Quafe, visiting a tailor and making your own clothing designs... and from there it's just a short slippery slope to flying furries and StarFox Online. PirateBearPirateBear

Do not actively tank my patience.
Sean DT
Revered Mining Corp
#609 - 2013-10-14 04:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean DT
Iosue wrote:
as others have hinted at, i suspect this has more to do with the encouragement of a third-party site that brings revenue to ccp via plex sales, than anything else. if this is true, i think it should be approached in a different way. rather than calling it a reward, which implies that the recipient is receiving something for a good or noble deed, call it what it is: compensation.

there's nothing wrong with compensating those that help you improve your bottom line. but why not offer something that they really want and is more in line with compensation, like cash. this way you don't effect the game economy at all and are able to give the recipient something they really value. there's a reason bonus's work so well at encouraging certain behaviors in the real world, because people like money.



I actually agree very much with the above statement by losue. I do think a lot of sites give more back to EVE than Somer Blink does, relative to what they gain from it, and thus are more deserving of in-game 'rewards' (which I think is a nice concept), but Somer Blink definitely without a single doubt are very very good at pushing the sale of GTC through Markee Dragon and as such helps bring in income for CCP, and I think that if CCP wants to compensate them for this, then yes they deserve it and CCP should be more than free to do this.

I just think a spoon should be called a spoon, in which case I doubt there would have been the same kind of 'drama' :-) Pirate
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2013-10-14 04:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Deka Ekato
Sean DT wrote:
Iosue wrote:
as others have hinted at, i suspect this has more to do with the encouragement of a third-party site that brings revenue to ccp via plex sales, than anything else. if this is true, i think it should be approached in a different way. rather than calling it a reward, which implies that the recipient is receiving something for a good or noble deed, call it what it is: compensation.

there's nothing wrong with compensating those that help you improve your bottom line. but why not offer something that they really want and is more in line with compensation, like cash. this way you don't effect the game economy at all and are able to give the recipient something they really value. there's a reason bonus's work so well at encouraging certain behaviors in the real world, because people like money.



I actually agree very much with the above statement by losue. I do think a lot of sites give more back to EVE than Somer Blink does, relative to what they gain from it, and thus are more deserving of in-game 'rewards' (which I think is a nice concept), but Somer Blink definitely without a single doubt are very very good at pushing the sale of GTC through Markee Dragon and as such helps bring in income for CCP, and I think that if CCP wants to compensate them for this, then yes they deserve it and CCP should be more than free to do this.Attention

I just think a spoon should be called a spoon, in which case I doubt there would have been the same kind of 'drama' :-) Pirate



I'm sorry, but I have to totally disagree with you.

Somer might be a means for more cash revenue for CCP, but rewarding / supporting a player run gambling site is not the correct way to do so.

Supporting Somer with in game rewards hurts the sandbox that Eve is.

Supporting Somer with any out of game rewards is not right. It endorses gambling.

Yes, my statement is weak and full of holes. I just don't know how to put it in words how wrong supporting, ( for what is, a scam and a RMT opportunity for Somer ), a player run gambling site is.

Somer is absolutely, not a fan site, and it has contributed nothing positive to the Eve community. ( the sponsering of events benefits Somer themselves, [ advertising ], not the community. ).

And the way you have commented on this, well it seems to be a way to RMT.
Pingu
Cosmos Butt Pirates
#611 - 2013-10-14 05:43:39 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
The rewards for the SOMER Blink staff was around three times larger than the one to the SCL staff but that’s because they have three times the staff. In both cases everyone got one each.


I dont want to break any rumourmongering rule so...

This statement by a CCP employee states that the rewards are based on the levels of staff, is this the current policy and now that this policy is known by the playerbase and open to rather easy manipulation will it change?
Miss Ladybird
Doomheim
#612 - 2013-10-14 11:00:58 UTC
ISD Tyrozan wrote:
2 personal attack posts, an off-topic post, a ranting post, and a moderation discussion post have been removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Forum rule 26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Forum rule 3. Ranting is prohibited.
Forum rule 11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.



Hundreds of posts later, and this is the first sign of any involvement from CCP.

It is just funny how they are happy to make the community outraged just so SOMERblink, an already filthy rich gambling scam, can get an extra few hundred billion isk (for free and spawned form nothing).

Can we have some kind of response?

We deserve a response... And one focusing on the issues we are discussing. Not another lame commitment to agenda this at the winter summit.
Mra Rednu
Oyonata Gate Defence Force.
#613 - 2013-10-14 11:15:14 UTC
So, how are we comming along or are CCP still hoping this is going to blow over and all will be right with Eve once more ?
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#614 - 2013-10-14 11:24:59 UTC
Miss Ladybird wrote:


It is just funny how they are happy to make the community outraged just so SOMERblink, an already filthy rich gambling scam, can get an extra few hundred billion isk (for free and spawned form nothing).

Can we have some kind of response?

We deserve a response... And one focusing on the issues we are discussing. Not another lame commitment to agenda this at the winter summit.


Can you please stop saying Somer have been given isk for free and spawned from nothing. They haven't and its confusing the very legitimate concerns the player base has.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Miss Ladybird
Doomheim
#615 - 2013-10-14 11:29:14 UTC
Well, hundreds of players have commented now with next to no CCP response.

In their frustration players are now showing anger in their posts, and breaking the EULA and CCP are deleting posts (and remaining silent).

I honestly feel like I have put more effort into this debate than any single member of CCP. How can nobody at CCP feel the same as I do about this?

I think I have already stomached as much of this as I can for one day. Ill check back again tomorrow.
Miss Ladybird
Doomheim
#616 - 2013-10-14 11:32:01 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Miss Ladybird wrote:


It is just funny how they are happy to make the community outraged just so SOMERblink, an already filthy rich gambling scam, can get an extra few hundred billion isk (for free and spawned form nothing).

Can we have some kind of response?

We deserve a response... And one focusing on the issues we are discussing. Not another lame commitment to agenda this at the winter summit.


Can you please stop saying Somer have been given isk for free and spawned from nothing. They haven't and its confusing the very legitimate concerns the player base has.


lawl SOMERalt....

I forgot the iscorps were worth 30 trit (reprocess value).

And I doubt the sustained and continuing CCP campaign to advertise and promote SOMERblink has increased its gambling takings at all.
Rammix
TheMurk
#617 - 2013-10-14 11:42:30 UTC
Lelira Cirim wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Any form of legal RMT will provoke much more botting, macrosing etc activity. People should keep their RL business out of game worlds. If there are some games that allow RMT for players - those games are sh*t, I'm absolutely sure. When people mix their RL income with online sandbox-style game - you can't keep healthy virtual world.
Wot, are you saying Second Life isn't a healthy virtual world? RollBlink
That's what's behind the captain's quarters door you know. First comes the bar you can hang out at, then come drink recipes and crafting Quafe, visiting a tailor and making your own clothing designs... and from there it's just a short slippery slope to flying furries and StarFox Online. PirateBearPirateBear

Second Life is not a game, it's a social network.

"When people mix their RL income with online sandbox-style game - you can't keep healthy virtual world."
Obviously I was talking about keeping a virtual gaming world healthy.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#618 - 2013-10-14 11:48:03 UTC
Miss Ladybird wrote:
CCP are deleting posts

ISD are not CCP.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#619 - 2013-10-14 11:54:19 UTC
Miss Ladybird wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Miss Ladybird wrote:


It is just funny how they are happy to make the community outraged just so SOMERblink, an already filthy rich gambling scam, can get an extra few hundred billion isk (for free and spawned form nothing).

Can we have some kind of response?

We deserve a response... And one focusing on the issues we are discussing. Not another lame commitment to agenda this at the winter summit.


Can you please stop saying Somer have been given isk for free and spawned from nothing. They haven't and its confusing the very legitimate concerns the player base has.


lawl SOMERalt....

I forgot the iscorps were worth 30 trit (reprocess value).

And I doubt the sustained and continuing CCP campaign to advertise and promote SOMERblink has increased its gambling takings at all.


Nope, not interested in playing Somerblink.

You however do not understand the legitimate concerns being raised by the player base. No ISK was spawned, that doesn't mean CCP favoring Somer isn't an issue. I suggest you re-read the thread.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
adarma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#620 - 2013-10-14 12:00:24 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Miss Ladybird wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Miss Ladybird wrote:


It is just funny how they are happy to make the community outraged just so SOMERblink, an already filthy rich gambling scam, can get an extra few hundred billion isk (for free and spawned form nothing).

Can we have some kind of response?

We deserve a response... And one focusing on the issues we are discussing. Not another lame commitment to agenda this at the winter summit.


Can you please stop saying Somer have been given isk for free and spawned from nothing. They haven't and its confusing the very legitimate concerns the player base has.


lawl SOMERalt....

I forgot the iscorps were worth 30 trit (reprocess value).

And I doubt the sustained and continuing CCP campaign to advertise and promote SOMERblink has increased its gambling takings at all.


Nope, not interested in playing Somerblink.

You however do not understand the legitimate concerns being raised by the player base. No ISK was spawned, that doesn't mean CCP favoring Somer isn't an issue. I suggest you re-read the thread.



The only legitimate concern in this thread is the illegitimacy of the gambling websites and the illegitimate spotlighting and rewarding of them by CCP.