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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

First post First post First post
Author
Shai 'Hulud
#381 - 2013-10-11 16:38:11 UTC
... continued ...

You are intentionally trying to downplay what happened when every time you talk about it you spend half your time talking about how "usless these 20b isk value ships are."

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free

Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#382 - 2013-10-11 16:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
... continued ...

You are intentionally trying to downplay what happened when every time you talk about it you spend half your time talking about how "usless these 20b isk value ships are."



Agreed.

The 'charity' argument, the 'ship not very good' argument, the '1 trit' argument, and even the 'it's popular because you guys bet there' argument... they all hold no water.

They are an in game entity. CCP should not endorse them.

The very fact that their sponsorships have gained them special dev attention, gifts, and the ability to raffle off prizes on behalf of ccm... prove that those sponsorships WORKED. They bought their influence.

The fact you confirm this very thing in your mails as if it means nothing is laughable.

An in game corp has gained the approval, endorsement, and special attention of devs by making insane amounts of isk and tossing some of it around in the game.

How does that not sink in as wrong to you? I am just dumbfounded at the ignorance.

Yeah - one thing is right, you definitely are no Jedi.
Careby
#383 - 2013-10-11 16:46:56 UTC
Miss Ladybird wrote:
... Its got nothing to do with being a fan site. It is just a way for the owner to make isk hand over fist...

If that was all it was, I wouldn't feel nearly as strongly as I do about the gifts. Somer Blink is not only in the business of making ISK, but also of converting it into real money.

I'll borrow the tactic CCP Guard used when he said he wasn't trying to be a smartass and say, "I'm not trying to accuse Somer Blink of RMT, but they do convert ISK into real money." I'm not saying what they do is wrong, since it's CCP's role to enforce the EULA and CCP is apparently very happy with Somer's business model. And I'm not saying making a profit from EVE players is bad, especially when, by and large, most of their customers seem happy with the deal. But if their motive was to accumulate ISK rather than real money, why would they pay you ISK credit to go to another site and purchase GTCs?

I have no inside knowledge of how much ISK or dollars pass through Somer's hands. For all I know he could be rich or he could be on the verge of bankruptcy. Between Blink prizes, employee compensation, and event sponsorship, he may redistribute all the ISK he takes in. It's a lovely business model, in which much of the payroll and advertising expenses can be paid with ISK rather than real money. Obviously there are other expenses, including web servers and development, but I can only assume these are covered by the commissions on GTC sales.

The point is that Somer Blink is not just an in-game company in pursuit of ISK. They operate both in game and in the real world. I guess that's what makes them special to CCP. The GTC's they make their money selling represent income to CCP, and from the sound of it, not an insignificant amount of it.

Those of us who find fault with CCP's decision to provide in-game enrichment to Somer Blink and its employees have been called everything from idiots to jealous crybabies. We've been told to HTFU, and that we should not expect fairness. Life is not fair, so get over it. Yes, the unfairness of life is one of the things that make online virtual worlds popular. We pay real money for the chance to escape into these worlds. When our crybaby sensibilities begin to see EVE as inherently unfair (and by unfair I do not mean cruel or hard - there is a difference), we aren't likely to continue our support of it. It is up to CCP to determine how important our money is to their bottom line. Maybe they don't need us. Maybe Somer Blink will keep them afloat.

Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#384 - 2013-10-11 16:49:11 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:


An in game corp has gained the approval, endorsement, and special attention of devs by making insane amounts of isk and tossing some of it around in the game.



Yes I am quoting myself, but I want ot make clear that this is the fundamental problem here. Address it, or move it up the chain of command to someone who can please.

Thank you.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#385 - 2013-10-11 16:49:39 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:

Except that the podcast is presumably written for entertainment purposes, to the benefit of everyone who wants to read it. Anybody, even those who don't play EVE, can go listen to the podcast for free. In that way, they're providing a community service for free.

If they had received ISK and ships for just doing PVP without the podcast...that's more like what's happening there. SB is being rewarded for running a business in game.

How long until CCP rewards the ISK doublers? Because that's basically the same thing.

Gambling is also for entertainment :D If not that then for what?
The podcast had advertisment (for SOMER Blink, hehe), that means the listeners were the product.
If you want to take part in a Tournament you also need to have an active account.

Do ISK doublers (the scammers) give out billions of ISK for ingame events?



When I buy a scratcher from a store, it isn't the fun of rubbing a coin across the grey material.

It's to win money.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#386 - 2013-10-11 17:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Careby wrote:
Miss Ladybird wrote:
... Its got nothing to do with being a fan site. It is just a way for the owner to make isk hand over fist...

If that was all it was, I wouldn't feel nearly as strongly as I do about the gifts. Somer Blink is not only in the business of making ISK, but also of converting it into real money.

I'll borrow the tactic CCP Guard used when he said he wasn't trying to be a smartass and say, "I'm not trying to accuse Somer Blink of RMT, but they do convert ISK into real money." I'm not saying what they do is wrong, since it's CCP's role to enforce the EULA and CCP is apparently very happy with Somer's business model. And I'm not saying making a profit from EVE players is bad, especially when, by and large, most of their customers seem happy with the deal. But if their motive was to accumulate ISK rather than real money, why would they pay you ISK credit to go to another site and purchase GTCs?

I have no inside knowledge of how much ISK or dollars pass through Somer's hands. For all I know he could be rich or he could be on the verge of bankruptcy. Between Blink prizes, employee compensation, and event sponsorship, he may redistribute all the ISK he takes in. It's a lovely business model, in which much of the payroll and advertising expenses can be paid with ISK rather than real money. Obviously there are other expenses, including web servers and development, but I can only assume these are covered by the commissions on GTC sales.

The point is that Somer Blink is not just an in-game company in pursuit of ISK. They operate both in game and in the real world. I guess that's what makes them special to CCP. The GTC's they make their money selling represent income to CCP, and from the sound of it, not an insignificant amount of it.

Those of us who find fault with CCP's decision to provide in-game enrichment to Somer Blink and its employees have been called everything from idiots to jealous crybabies. We've been told to HTFU, and that we should not expect fairness. Life is not fair, so get over it. Yes, the unfairness of life is one of the things that make online virtual worlds popular. We pay real money for the chance to escape into these worlds. When our crybaby sensibilities begin to see EVE as inherently unfair (and by unfair I do not mean cruel or hard - there is a difference), we aren't likely to continue our support of it. It is up to CCP to determine how important our money is to their bottom line. Maybe they don't need us. Maybe Somer Blink will keep them afloat.



Since we've seen devs basically admit that SOMERblink has gained influence over them because of the amount of isk they hand out, let's dig deeper.

When you buy a GTC from them, they get cash. In return they give you 200m isk.

Wait...

You buy a GTC from them, they give you isk.

Let's review that: you give SOMER cash, they give you isk. Isk for cash. Cash for isk. That's RMT. Plain and simple. The EULA says it doesn't matter how you do it, it says if you sell isk for cash you did bad.


"B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game."



So, is SOMERblink allowed to RMT because they toss isk around in the community and this makes devs like them?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2013-10-11 17:02:47 UTC
Gogela wrote:
A Research Alt wrote:
Quote:
Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients can’t cash out?


You shouldn't be giving out cash rewards in the first place.

The Devs get a cash reward for building the game. The web designer got a cash reward for building this forum. WTF is the difference if they want to pay people cash for building a community site? Putting up something ridiculous like this robs any of your other arguments of credibility. If your objective is to sway your audience, you should focus on the points most important to you.

/my2isk



Somer Blink is not a community site. It's a business.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#388 - 2013-10-11 17:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
CCP Guard wrote:


You said you still weren't clear on what SOMER did to deserve our attention. I replied to a similar question in this post . If there's anything more you'd like to know about it I can try but I really don't know how much more I can add. It was a judgement call at the time.


This is what you said in that post:

CCP Guard wrote:
It had to do with timing, our impression of their overall track record and capability, their niche, and habit of sponsoring events...to name a few.


That reply lacks specific details some of us keep asking you for. For whatever reason you continue to evade answering those questions directly.

Please clarify your post quoted above:

SB has an "overall track record" of doing what exactly that merits attention?

What "capability" exactly are you referring to?

What "niche" exactly are you referring to?

Additionally:

Does CCP consider SB to be a "fansite"?

Is CCP's official stance that SB is a trusted entity, and that players using their out-of-game services can expect not to be scammed?


if there are other considerations as you stated, could you please disclose any that relate directly to contributing to EVE players in their entirety?

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2013-10-11 17:12:23 UTC
Pharill wrote:
K0ttDiledundee wrote:
What about those of us who have played for many many years without breaks in our subscription.........where's our special rare items? We've spent years generating real content in the form of battles and participation in your game and we dont even get a thanjs. All sb does is rake in isk through controling a lottery with stacked odds in favor of fake/alt characters. And now they've been given even more isk. Sad ccp just sad.



*ahem* cry, cry, whine, moan, etc etc.

This it what it boils down to. "ME ME ME, I I I"

Anyone who feels like this .. Stick your rails up your rear and hit F1. CCP is a company and as such can do pretty much anything they damn well please with their product.

I have zero, zilch, nada issues with them giving away these ships. They are worthless in game and only worth isk because in game fools are willing to throw away billions on them. Here's a thought take the 15bill you're going to spend on that IWS and throw it into BLINK. Even if you hate to gamble I bet you can turn a profit.

Oh and the complaint "They're for profit. You're making them richer" That's like giving Scrooge McDuck a million bucks and letting people say you made them rich. He's already rich! 300-600bill is a effing drop in Somers wallet.

So CCP you want people to shut up about the IWS give one to everyone, tha'll shut em' up. I fully support what you are doing, I personally don't really care who or how many of the IWS' you give away. And do you have to tell me about it? Heck no. Why? Because honestly it doesn't affect a single individual player in the entire cluster.



While CCP can and will do whatever they want, they also want feedback from us. Keep in mind who the OP is and that should help clear up any need to post here if you really do not care.

Some of us do care, and CCP is asking for our input.

We are giving it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#390 - 2013-10-11 17:17:29 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Gogela wrote:
PLEX, even in bulk, seems perfectly fine to me.


no, he's right with respect to handing out plex as rewards. whether scorpions, or a stack of plex; ccp are still giving players a fist full of isk and that fucks with the sandbox.

on the other hand, people buying and selling plex isn't an issue.

here's why; plex spawned by CCP and given out is a resource that has no limit and provides wealth in conjunction with the pilots day to day activities. plex purchased by your average joe eve player is limited to the cash in their bank account; and you can either earn money at work to turn plex in to isk, or play eve (don't argue that you can do both, because you're either going to get fired or make **** isk/hour to the point of irrelevance) and hence in some capacity plex via that method is limited.

however this really isn't about how plex works and lets shut up now please?

I explained how it works. Why don't you explain to me the difference between CCP contracting a community site, paying the developer in cash, and that developer turning around and buying a truckload of PLEX, and CCP just paying the community site developer in PLEX. Do it. What the hell is the difference?



That developer is not representing the community site.

Just like you don't reward the construction crews who built John Hopkins for the awesome research done there by the doctors.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#391 - 2013-10-11 17:21:16 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:


You said you still weren't clear on what SOMER did to deserve our attention. I replied to a similar question in this post . If there's anything more you'd like to know about it I can try but I really don't know how much more I can add. It was a judgement call at the time.


This is what you said in that post:

CCP Guard wrote:
It had to do with timing, our impression of their overall track record and capability, their niche, and habit of sponsoring events...to name a few.


That reply lacks specific details some of us keep asking you for. For whatever reason you continue to evade answering those questions directly.

Please clarify your post quoted above:

SB has an "overall track record" of doing what exactly?

SB's "capability" of doing what exactly?

What "niche" exactly are you referring to?

Does CCP consider SB to be a "fansite"?

Is CCP's official stance that SB is a trusted entity, and that players using it can expect not to be scammed?


if there are other considerations as you stated, could you please disclose any that relate directly to contributing to EVE players in their entirety?


You've asked for more clarifications a few times before in this thread and I´m not sure how I can clarify this to your satisfaction. I think it's fairly well covered in my reply why we thought it would make sense to explore a relationship with them during a time when we are thinking a lot about more tournaments and competitive events. If you just plain don't like lottery sites or SOMER in particular then of course you're just going to disagree with that judgement call and that's perfectly natural.

To answer the fansite question, they haven't been a registered fansite but we work with other types of enterprises than registered fansites.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard

Cierra Royce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2013-10-11 17:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cierra Royce
CCP Guard wrote:


You've asked for more clarifications a few times before in this thread and I´m not sure how I can clarify this to your satisfaction. I think it's fairly well covered in my reply why we thought it would make sense to explore a relationship with them during a time when we are thinking a lot about more tournaments and competitive events. If you just plain don't like lottery sites or SOMER in particular then of course you're just going to disagree with that judgement call and that's perfectly natural.

To answer the fansite question, they haven't been a registered fansite but we work with other types of enterprises than registered fansites.


It's probably not a good idea to start joint ventures with in game corporations, individuals or groups that will result in them getting exclusive and hidden access to extremely valuable trinkets and other items that can be spawned on their behalf, nobody will see it as fair, fairly earned or justified in any way. Stick to monuments, memorial tokens, renaming planets/stars/moons.

Just saying.

ed: Guard want to love you guys really do, make it easy for me, keep the sandbox harsh unforgiving and as free as possible of the hands of eager Gods bearing gifts
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#393 - 2013-10-11 17:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
CCP Guard wrote:

You've asked for more clarifications a few times before in this thread and I´m not sure how I can clarify this to your satisfaction. I think it's fairly well covered in my reply why we thought it would make sense to explore a relationship with them during a time when we are thinking a lot about more tournaments and competitive events. If you just plain don't like lottery sites or SOMER in particular then of course you're just going to disagree with that judgement call and that's perfectly natural.


Well, answering my direct questions INDIVIDUALLY with SPECIFIC answers instead of vague generalizations would satisfy me. Otherwise your responses thus far seem to be intentionally vague word crafting, and as such I am requesting that you be more specific.

Also, I'm asking these questions so I and others can make informed decisions. I have not stated any position regarding lottery sites, or SOMER, but, putting your assumptions aside, if you provide specific answers to my very simple questions you may assist me in forming an opinion one way or another.

I suppose I could play this game with you and make assumptions about your position, and say you just plain don't like the questions because the answers are embarrassing and that's perfectly natural, so you are just going to continue to evade them, stating they've already been answered. .

PLEASE prove me wrong, by just answering the questions individually, without being evasive.

CCP Guard wrote:

To answer the fansite question, they haven't been a registered fansite but we work with other types of enterprises than registered fansites.


Except you did not answer what is a simple yes/no question, and answered a question I did not ask. Regardless of whether they registered as one, does CCP consider SB's lottery to be a "fansite"? Yes, or No?

And one you have yet to address:

Is CCP's official stance that SB is a trusted entity, and that players using its services can have a reasonable expectation they won't be scammed? Yes, or No are possible answers here as well.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#394 - 2013-10-11 17:37:24 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
CCP Guard, since you're clearly still actively reading and replying to this thread, what are your thoughts on somers - or indeed any third party CCP may deal with in the future - banning and excluding paying subscribers at their own discretion?

It's no secret that people who share an IP address for example - like family, house mates, internet cafes - are banned from somer and not allowed to fairly take part in this recent give away. Are CCP willing to allow third parties to arbitrarily dictate rules and regulations that EVE players must abide to in order to participate in give aways or other events CCP are helping create/sponsor/etc?


We're aware of that concern and it's something we'll have a look at and draw lines around when we sit down with the CSM and map out what our guidelines should be. There are a lot of events that are inaccessible to a large portion of your playerbase for various reasons and we have to look at how all of that plays into the different levels of support we provide.

The only events you speak of that could be inaccessable to a large portion are the different fanfests but this is for a supposed "fansite" (loosely used in SOMER's case). LIke I've said before you can give these "fansites" the free IWS all you want with transparency of why.

You want to run a promotion tho do it yourselves at eveonline.com with some new program that automatically puts everyone into the lottery/whatever way you come up with. Then no one can be left out and you won't have a problem with part of the playerbase being left out like tons of people were out of SOMERs due to many different reasons..
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#395 - 2013-10-11 17:41:35 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:


You said you still weren't clear on what SOMER did to deserve our attention. I replied to a similar question in this post . If there's anything more you'd like to know about it I can try but I really don't know how much more I can add. It was a judgement call at the time.


This is what you said in that post:

CCP Guard wrote:
It had to do with timing, our impression of their overall track record and capability, their niche, and habit of sponsoring events...to name a few.


That reply lacks specific details some of us keep asking you for. For whatever reason you continue to evade answering those questions directly.

Please clarify your post quoted above:

SB has an "overall track record" of doing what exactly?

SB's "capability" of doing what exactly?

What "niche" exactly are you referring to?

Does CCP consider SB to be a "fansite"?

Is CCP's official stance that SB is a trusted entity, and that players using it can expect not to be scammed?


if there are other considerations as you stated, could you please disclose any that relate directly to contributing to EVE players in their entirety?


You've asked for more clarifications a few times before in this thread and I´m not sure how I can clarify this to your satisfaction. I think it's fairly well covered in my reply why we thought it would make sense to explore a relationship with them during a time when we are thinking a lot about more tournaments and competitive events. If you just plain don't like lottery sites or SOMER in particular then of course you're just going to disagree with that judgement call and that's perfectly natural.

To answer the fansite question, they haven't been a registered fansite but we work with other types of enterprises than registered fansites.



Um. We don't like the idea of ccp cavorting with any in game corporation, especially one that tosses isk around and engages in questionable RMT practices. This isn't a judgement call. It's a conflict of interest, done. In fact everything you post proves you are not impartial.

And it's not a lottery, it's a penny auction, something many feel is a scam of sorts.

But you love them - because they spend isk. LOL. It's almost laughable that you don't see the failure of your argument.

Will start unsubbing all but one account. Unfortunately I have a corp of people who rely on me, or i'd unsub them all.
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#396 - 2013-10-11 17:43:55 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:


You said you still weren't clear on what SOMER did to deserve our attention. I replied to a similar question in this post . If there's anything more you'd like to know about it I can try but I really don't know how much more I can add. It was a judgement call at the time.


This is what you said in that post:

CCP Guard wrote:
It had to do with timing, our impression of their overall track record and capability, their niche, and habit of sponsoring events...to name a few.


That reply lacks specific details some of us keep asking you for. For whatever reason you continue to evade answering those questions directly.

Please clarify your post quoted above:

SB has an "overall track record" of doing what exactly?

SB's "capability" of doing what exactly?

What "niche" exactly are you referring to?

Does CCP consider SB to be a "fansite"?

Is CCP's official stance that SB is a trusted entity, and that players using it can expect not to be scammed?


if there are other considerations as you stated, could you please disclose any that relate directly to contributing to EVE players in their entirety?


You've asked for more clarifications a few times before in this thread and I´m not sure how I can clarify this to your satisfaction. I think it's fairly well covered in my reply why we thought it would make sense to explore a relationship with them during a time when we are thinking a lot about more tournaments and competitive events. If you just plain don't like lottery sites or SOMER in particular then of course you're just going to disagree with that judgement call and that's perfectly natural.

To answer the fansite question, they haven't been a registered fansite but we work with other types of enterprises than registered fansites.


So I can count this as standard business practice also ???????.?. Did you discuss tournament and competitive events at the summit or in the private forums. Those are big community issues.
Nolak Ataru
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#397 - 2013-10-11 17:45:17 UTC
I toss isk around at players in my community, and I help new players get into incursions. Can I get my T2 BPO yet?
Josef Djugashvilis
#398 - 2013-10-11 17:49:20 UTC
Why don't we all just wait and see what CCP make of it all?

I am pretty sure they are aware of the issues now.

It is also worth pointing out (the obvious) that unsubbing means you lose access to the game as well as CCP losing revenue.

Perhaps CCP Guard could give some indication of a timescale to resolve this issue.

This is not a signature.

Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#399 - 2013-10-11 17:50:19 UTC
as others have hinted at, i suspect this has more to do with the encouragement of a third-party site that brings revenue to ccp via plex sales, than anything else. if this is true, i think it should be approached in a different way. rather than calling it a reward, which implies that the recipient is receiving something for a good or noble deed, call it what it is: compensation.

there's nothing wrong with compensating those that help you improve your bottom line. but why not offer something that they really want and is more in line with compensation, like cash. this way you don't effect the game economy at all and are able to give the recipient something they really value. there's a reason bonus's work so well at encouraging certain behaviors in the real world, because people like money.
Mordachai
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#400 - 2013-10-11 17:55:41 UTC
Just curious what is the single biggest "gift"/"reward" you have given to entity in eve since the beginning ? (value at the time ie those SIW are currently worth around 300bill at least as far as i understand)

Also why dont you have a list of rewards being given out so it would make even more people want to do good things for the community ?

Personally i think you should just create a system for i.e. lotteries/rewards/gifts/fansite capabilities into the client just like your doing with twitch... that way people might sleep better at night.

p.s. does ccp really endorse gambling where kids are allowed to play the game ? considering adults know that gambling is bad mmkay but kids like 13 years olds... have no sense of that and become like this