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[Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers

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Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#221 - 2013-10-11 10:08:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Edwin McAlister wrote:
don't know what factors you both are accounting for, as one of you has the RHML being over powered, and the other has it being underpowered


The first graph, is really the only graph worth looking at.

he is comparing single turret DPS of CN RHML, CN Cruise, CN Torps vs targets. I have no idea what kind of ships he is using, what ships he is shooting at, or what mods / implants are used. Infact- i can't even tell the DPS or damgae.

So really compared to my graphs- his have little if any relevance.

Mine are showing applied DPS on target, I really don't know what to make of his.

Your numbers are interesting, but they only show that the Typhoon won't have a use for these RHML with application implants ; and that with a lot of things to apply missile damage, then RHML don't have that much of an advantage, which was rather obvious in fact : you can't apply more than you max damage, and you are not there, damage application thingy will rise your damage.

That's very interesting because that show exactly what Jayne Fillon is saying : RHML will be largely better than Cruise or Torp to shoot at smaller target but cruise and torp will still be good to apply dps to BS and painted/tackled targets.

The shortish range is interesting too because that make missiles work exactly the reverse of turrets which have less trouble hitting smaller targets at longer ranges whereas these RHML will hit them at closer ranges.


I am not sure if you never learned how to read graphs, but the red line (showing RHML) Is apply less damage to every target, when compared to cruise missiles. The blue lines, are larger even for interceptors... Also what does range have anything to do with it? The cruise missiles have a much longer range, so again that is a huge +++
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#222 - 2013-10-11 10:15:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That's very interesting because that show exactly what Jayne Fillon is saying : RHML will be largely better than Cruise or Torp to shoot at smaller target but cruise and torp will still be good to apply dps to BS and painted/tackled targets.

The shortish range is interesting too because that make missiles work exactly the reverse of turrets which have less trouble hitting smaller targets at longer ranges whereas these RHML will hit them at closer ranges.

No, they won't. Two rigors and a flare on a RNI and cruise missiles will hit for about twice the damage of a heavy missile with the same accuracy and easily 4-5x the range. Which would you choose? There's also the question of missile velocity on the RHMLs, because without any of the inherent velocity bonuses these things are going to almost be as slow as torpedoes. Now if the RHMLs receive ALL of the missiles bonuses, different story.

What do you NOT understand in the numbers of Chessur ? Just ask, I can answer. Just realize please that you need 25% bonus + implants + crash + 2 rigor rigs for cruise to apply their dps to smaller targets.

In fact, it's hardly a honest comparison unless you actually look carefully at all the circumstances of these numbers. Here, cruise will have almost the same explosion radius as heavy missiles, so no wonders the results, but not actually a fair comparison.


The only thing the cruise typhoon had over the RHML typhoon was 2X T1 rigors. Thats it. Otherwise they shared completly, the exact same implants and fittings.

The reason why I dont' want to put rigors on the RHML typhoon is simply because doing so would make using RHML's completely pointless. Losing those 2 rig slots really cuts back on your tank. The only reason why I so now- is because of the great damage potential of cruise missiles. However with RHML's having anemic DPS, why would i chose to fit my ship with poor damage and poor tank? I feel that with cruise your poor tank is balanced by some nice damage.

If RHMLs could also recive the typhoons innate 5% application bonus, then you could be looking at a ship that can sport a greater tank, while stil applying the majority of its lower DPS. I am trying to make a BS comparison to the RLM cerb / caracal. Both of those ships are amazing. But because their damage is applied so well, you can give them disgusting tnaks- to go along with the nice projection. Even though the dps on both ships is a bit anemic, it still makes for a really strong ship package.

Currently with the typhoon, and RHML- I am just not seeing it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2013-10-11 10:28:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That's very interesting because that show exactly what Jayne Fillon is saying : RHML will be largely better than Cruise or Torp to shoot at smaller target but cruise and torp will still be good to apply dps to BS and painted/tackled targets.

The shortish range is interesting too because that make missiles work exactly the reverse of turrets which have less trouble hitting smaller targets at longer ranges whereas these RHML will hit them at closer ranges.

No, they won't. Two rigors and a flare on a RNI and cruise missiles will hit for about twice the damage of a heavy missile with the same accuracy and easily 4-5x the range. Which would you choose? There's also the question of missile velocity on the RHMLs, because without any of the inherent velocity bonuses these things are going to almost be as slow as torpedoes. Now if the RHMLs receive ALL of the missiles bonuses, different story.



Issue is that usually you want the rig slots on the typhoon for something more batleshipish.... talking PVP wise at least.

Without rigs the cruises get outdamaged fast.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#224 - 2013-10-11 10:34:48 UTC
Ok I have made another set of graphs. Here are the variables:

Cruise Phoon: 3 BCS, 2 T1 rirgors, 5% damage + 5% Application implants, Standard Crash
RHML Phoon: 3 BCS, 5% damage + 5% Application implants, Standard Crash
RHML Rigor Phoon: 3 BCS, 2 T1 rirgors, 5% damage + 5% Application implants, Standard Crash
RLM Cerb: 3 BCS, 2 T1 rirgors, 5% damage + 5% Application implants, Standard Crash

In these graphs, but the cruise and RHML rigor phoons share rigors. The Cerberus and RHML phoons do not. I have also (On the RHML Rigor phoon) Used precision missiles when possible.

Please keep in mind when looking at these graphs- that a precision HML with no velocity modifier has a range of 28/30 K. Remember that cruise missiles of the same type have close to a 75K range. These graphs show every variable on both ships completely the same.

Finally here are the fittings of a 3 BCS dual T1 rigor RHML Phoon, when compared to a 3 BCS dual T1 rigor Cruise phoon:

Cruise phoon with 3X BCS + T2 launchers + 2 T1 rigors:

CPU: 447.44 / 800
Grid: 8173.2 / 15625

RHML Phoon With 3X BCS + T2 launchers + 2 T1 rigors:

CPU: 412.71 / 800
Grid: 6537 / 15625

So you are saving 35 CPU and 1636 Grid. Which in my opinion, is simply not worth the dual rigor on the RHML. You still don't have enough CPU to use what little gird extra you have. You could place 1 extra 1600 mm Plate / Large anci repper. Thats it....

Graph 1:

http://i.imgur.com/eS49n5q.png

Graph 2:

http://i.imgur.com/Dj7JWe3.png
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#225 - 2013-10-11 10:40:31 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
That's very interesting because that show exactly what Jayne Fillon is saying : RHML will be largely better than Cruise or Torp to shoot at smaller target but cruise and torp will still be good to apply dps to BS and painted/tackled targets.

The shortish range is interesting too because that make missiles work exactly the reverse of turrets which have less trouble hitting smaller targets at longer ranges whereas these RHML will hit them at closer ranges.

No, they won't. Two rigors and a flare on a RNI and cruise missiles will hit for about twice the damage of a heavy missile with the same accuracy and easily 4-5x the range. Which would you choose? There's also the question of missile velocity on the RHMLs, because without any of the inherent velocity bonuses these things are going to almost be as slow as torpedoes. Now if the RHMLs receive ALL of the missiles bonuses, different story.



Issue is that usually you want the rig slots on the typhoon for something more batleshipish.... talking PVP wise at least.

Without rigs the cruises get outdamaged fast.


You can drop field extenders / trimarks for rigors on cruise missiles. You are doing some really good DPS at great ranges- so that is a worth while trade off. The RHML on the other hand, have a max range of only 60K or so. Precision is even worse at 28/30K. You are doing less damge to larger DPS ships that can project- and you have short range to try and deal with targets flying towards you from farther away (think light tackle) All in all, its just a bad design currently. I see no merits of this system over cruise.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#226 - 2013-10-11 10:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Chessur wrote:
The only thing the cruise typhoon had over the RHML typhoon was 2X T1 rigors. Thats it. Otherwise they shared completly, the exact same implants and fittings.

The reason why I dont' want to put rigors on the RHML typhoon is simply because doing so would make using RHML's completely pointless. Losing those 2 rig slots really cuts back on your tank. The only reason why I so now- is because of the great damage potential of cruise missiles. However with RHML's having anemic DPS, why would i chose to fit my ship with poor damage and poor tank? I feel that with cruise your poor tank is balanced by some nice damage.

If RHMLs could also recive the typhoons innate 5% application bonus, then you could be looking at a ship that can sport a greater tank, while stil applying the majority of its lower DPS. I am trying to make a BS comparison to the RLM cerb / caracal. Both of those ships are amazing. But because their damage is applied so well, you can give them disgusting tnaks- to go along with the nice projection. Even though the dps on both ships is a bit anemic, it still makes for a really strong ship package.

Currently with the typhoon, and RHML- I am just not seeing it.

And you certainly chose the Typhoon randomly, and it just happened it had a damage application bonus which don't apply to RHML ? So bad Luck...

But let me sum up :
On one hand, cruise missiles with +5% explo velocity ? implant ; 2*15% explo radius rigs ; 25% explosion radius bonus from ship ; 20% explosion radius from crash booster.
On the other hand RHML with 20% crash + 5% implant

That's what ? 45% more bonus for cruise missiles ? Absolutely meaningless you'll say ? Please, tell us more how dishonnest you can be...

In fact, you just showed how ONE ship (the Typhoon) can build up explosion radius of cruise missiles to make it lower than on heavy missiles. And hence, you showed how both systems will have a place : cruise missiles for BS or when you have lot of control/damage application bonuses and HML for smaller target and less support. Of course we are not talking about pve where you don't care about gimping your fit and taking boosters to reach insane numbers with cruise missiles.

And you know, there are other ships than the Typhoon to use missiles with.

PS : and can't you make your tests without crash booster, to avoid threshold problems ? I really doubt standard crash booster is that spread in pvp considering the drawbacks.
Gorski Car
#227 - 2013-10-11 10:45:02 UTC
1. Anyone good use dmg application rigs on cruise phoon.
2. Chessur make some graphs without crash and implants. While anyone good will have that its easier for the peasant plebs here to understand.
3. You guys are all bad rhmls are bad.

Collect this post
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-10-11 11:26:12 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Okay, I'm done running the numbers. Take a look.

All skills five, faction ammo, stasis webifiers and target painters analyzed.

I'm not even going to bother posting my opinion on the matter because the numbers speak for themselves.

Comprehensive Weapon Systems Analysis

Great work and I appreciate all the time you've spent on this. What happens when you start applying multiple TPs. Most BS ships can and will fit at least 2 TPs. I run with 3-4 on my SNI on occasion depending on activity. For any of the ship profiles that have reached 100 PME for RHML the additional TPs would bring Cruise missiles into line. Also, a full rig set will have the same effect here.

Is the applied DPS value in your graph the actual DPS number or the percentage of max DPS applied? I assume it's the former of those. The way I see it, RHML are only "better" against smaller targets if you are solo without tackle and maybe a single painter. If you have tackle and a couple painters, the RHML will only be a valid option for sub cruiser targets. If your ship hull has significant bonuses to damage application RHML might become even less of an attractive option.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#229 - 2013-10-11 11:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I have to wonder if some of you have actually flown any of these ships... Here are some raw numbers, using T2 cruise and RHML with Caldari Navy faction ammunition (skills to Level-V, no implants or modules except where noted). I had to make some manual calculations with the RHML, so expect ±1% divergence. Numbers don't tell the whole story here, but I'll try to offer some insight.

Raven Navy Issue:
• Cruise II ... 52 dps, 185.63 m radius, 103.5 m/s explosion, 10575 m/s velocity, 222.1km range
• RHML II ... 41.6 dps, 105 m radius, 121.5 m/s explosion, 6450 m/s velocity, 62.9km range
• w/T2 Rigor-Flare, Cruise II ... 118.8 m radius, 124.2 m/s explosion
• w/T2 Rigor-Flare, RHML II ... 67.2m radius, 145.8 m/s explosion
• Cruise II, alpha ... 592.63 hp (4741 hp), 11.39 s rate of fire; 416 dps total
• RHML II, alpha ... 213.13 hp (1705 hp), 5.99 s rate of fire; 333 dps total

Scorpion Navy Issue and Typhoon:
• Cruise II ... 69.3 dps, 247.5 m radius, 103.5 m/s explosion (129.4 m/s Typhoon), 7050 m/s velocity, 148.1km range
• RHML II ... 55.5 dos, 105m radius, 121.5 m/s explosion, 6450 m/s velocity, 62.9km range
• w/T2 Rigor-Flare, Cruise II ... 158.4 m radius, 124.2 m/s explosion (155.2 m/s Typhoon)
• w/T2 Rigor-Flare, RHML II ... 67.2m radius, 145.8 m/s explosion
• Cruise II, alpha ... 592.63 hp (3556 hp), 6.26s rate of fire; 416 dps total
• RHML II, alpha ... 213.13 hp (1279 hp), 4.49 s rate of fire; 333 dps total

Typhoon Fleet Issue:
• Cruise II ... 71.6 dps, 247.5 m radius, 103.5 m/s explosion, 7050 m/s velocity, 148.1km range
• RHML II ... 57.2 dos, 105m radius, 121.5 m/s explosion, 6450 m/s velocity, 62.9km range
• w/T2 Rigor-Flare, Cruise II ... 158.4 m radius, 124.2 m/s explosion
• w/T2 Rigor-Flare, RHML II ... 67.2m radius, 145.8 m/s explosion
• Cruise II, alpha ... 814.86 hp (4889 hp), 11.39 s rate of fire; 430 dps total
• RHML II, alpha ... 293.05 hp (1758 hp), 5.99 s rate of fire; 343 dps total

Rattlesnake:
< lost cause >

First and foremost you've got striking range. It's quite literally night and day. Even with the non-range bonused Scorpions or Typhoons, you're still taking about a 148.1km range with cruise missiles. That affords one the ability to stand-off at a distance to pick targets off, reducing damage and requiring at less tank. At 60km, not so much.

Second, consider missile velocity and alpha. Even at a 50% damage reduction with cruise missiles you're going to 1-shot most cruisers (especially with 1-2 target painters). You'll need at least 2 volleys with RHML, since you can't really get the damage potential any higher with target painters. Then there's the speed. It takes 10 seconds to hit a target @60km with RHML, and 6 seconds with cruise. At the maximum range for RHML you can get 1.5 volleys of cruise missiles off in the time it takes 2 volleys of heavy missiles to hit their target. This is a lot of time for a target to accelerate, change direction, etc. - and can't really be appreciated just by looking at the raw numbers.

So let's look at the flip-side of the coin. You can probably get away with fewer (perhaps zero?) target painters running RHML. You can use this to buffer your tank (which you'll need with a range of 60km). And you're definitely going to hit frigates for more damage, but battleships are going to be more of a grind. So it's kind of a wash. Now you can also run hydraulic rigs and that will get your range to 96.2km, but again that reduces your tank - and kind of commits you to a RHML setup (since there's not a lot of benefit to cruise). This may be the only effective way to run RHMLs because missile velocity is just horrendous otherwise. DPS is going to consistently run about 80% all things considered, but this will vary significantly depending on the target. I really think the missile velocity on RHMLs is going to be a real wildcard that could potentially diminish their effect.

When you look at the numbers it's somewhat easy to understand why the designers are including damage and rate of fire, but not explosion velocity or explosion radius. It would probably be too op, and the Raven Navy Issue would be an absolute terror to just about everything except drones when outfitted with rigors and flares (I can still dream). However, missile velocity is something that should definitely be included (Rattlesnake, Raven and Raven Navy Issue). These are all long-range platforms and it somewhat defeats the purpose to relegate them to mid-range setups.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone
Caldari State
#230 - 2013-10-11 11:44:37 UTC
RHML are worthless without proper ship bonus.. Only ROF bonus applies? really??

Allow it to have the velocity bonus too at a minimum.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#231 - 2013-10-11 11:46:50 UTC
Saberlily Whyteshadow wrote:
RHML are worthless without proper ship bonus.. Only ROF bonus applies? really??
Allow it to have the velocity bonus too at a minimum.

ROF and damage. But I agree, velocity should also be included.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone
Caldari State
#232 - 2013-10-11 11:57:47 UTC
ROF literally is the only damage bonus in the BS hulls.. even the Caldari ships dont have a kinetic bonused hull.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#233 - 2013-10-11 12:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Saberlily Whyteshadow wrote:
ROF literally is the only damage bonus in the BS hulls.. even the Caldari ships dont have a kinetic bonused hull.

Typhoon Fleet Issue has a damage bonus. Probably the new Golem.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jayne Fillon
#234 - 2013-10-11 14:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayne Fillon
-snip-

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Jayne Fillon
#235 - 2013-10-11 14:24:16 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Okay, I'm done running the numbers. Take a look.

All skills five, faction ammo, stasis webifiers and target painters analyzed.

I'm not even going to bother posting my opinion on the matter because the numbers speak for themselves.

Comprehensive Weapon Systems Analysis

Great work and I appreciate all the time you've spent on this. What happens when you start applying multiple TPs. Most BS ships can and will fit at least 2 TPs. I run with 3-4 on my SNI on occasion depending on activity. For any of the ship profiles that have reached 100 PME for RHML the additional TPs would bring Cruise missiles into line. Also, a full rig set will have the same effect here.

Is the applied DPS value in your graph the actual DPS number or the percentage of max DPS applied? I assume it's the former of those. The way I see it, RHML are only "better" against smaller targets if you are solo without tackle and maybe a single painter. If you have tackle and a couple painters, the RHML will only be a valid option for sub cruiser targets. If your ship hull has significant bonuses to damage application RHML might become even less of an attractive option.


As has been commonly requested, I decided to look a Typoon with it's unbalanced bonuses, using 3x Target Painter, 2x Rigor, and 1x Flare (T2 Rigs). Cruise and torps will of course get the bonus to application that RHMLs will not, but it only ended up only increasing their normalized effectiveness by around 20%, (for torpedoes, this was a 4% overall increase in relative effectiveness, from 20% to 24% compared to the RHMLs).

Short of dual webbing the target, I could not get cruise and torpedoes to out perform RHMLs against strategic cruiser sized targets and smaller (the combat battlecruiser seems to be the intersection point). However these bonuses and rigs did change the effectiveness of cruise and torpedoes above 100% when compared to RHMLs in certain cases where they were previously applying less damage.

So there you go. Torps versus big slow things, cruise versus far things, and RHMLs versus close fast and small.

I'm flabbergasted we've gone through twelve pages and still haven't come to this consensus.

Honestly I'm start to feel like a graph on demand service. P

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#236 - 2013-10-11 14:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Jayne Fillon wrote:
So there you go. Torps versus big slow things, cruise versus far things, and RHMLs versus close fast and small.

Something seems off in your numbers. I can't see how RHMLs on a Typhoon would outperform cruise missiles by more than a factor of 2 against either type of battleship (AB and MWD). For starters, the explosion radius isn't going to come into effect, the explosion velocity is actually higher with cruise missiles and despite the higher rate of fire with RHMLs heavy missiles do less than half the damage.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#237 - 2013-10-11 15:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
So there you go. Torps versus big slow things, cruise versus far things, and RHMLs versus close fast and small.

Something seems off in your numbers. I can't see how RHMLs on a Typhoon would outperform cruise missiles by more than a factor of 2 against either type of battleship (AB and MWD). For starters, the explosion radius isn't going to come into effect, the explosion velocity is actually higher with cruise missiles and despite the higher rate of fire with RHMLs heavy missiles do less than half the damage.

Explosion radius always matter and has the same weight as explosion velocity when speed is involved.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-10-11 15:29:49 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
So there you go. Torps versus big slow things, cruise versus far things, and RHMLs versus close fast and small.

Something seems off in your numbers. I can't see how RHMLs on a Typhoon would outperform cruise missiles by more than a factor of 2 against either type of battleship (AB and MWD). For starters, the explosion radius isn't going to come into effect, the explosion velocity is actually higher with cruise missiles and despite the higher rate of fire with RHMLs heavy missiles do less than half the damage.

Explosion radius always matter and has the same weight as explosion velocity when speed is involved.


that cant be , once your explosion radius has match the sig radius of the target , any further decrease in exp rad wont increase your damage . I have shot angel BS many times with rage torpedo with 4 tp painted and do 1500 volley damage due to its speed was over 200m/s.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#239 - 2013-10-11 15:35:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Explosion radius always matter and has the same weight as explosion velocity when speed is involved.

A MWD battleship has a signature radius of well over 1500m and the explosion velocity of cruise missiles on a Typhoon is 7% higher than heavy missiles. So please explain how a heavy missile would outperform a cruise missile by a factor of two in this scenario.

Mer88 wrote:
that cant be , once your explosion radius has match the sig radius of the target , any further decrease in exp rad wont increase your damage . I have shot angel BS many times with rage torpedo with 4 tp painted and do 1500 volley damage due to its speed was over 200m/s.

My point exactly. If anything, cruise missiles should outperform heavy missiles in the above scenario.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#240 - 2013-10-11 15:42:59 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Saberlily Whyteshadow wrote:
RHML are worthless without proper ship bonus.. Only ROF bonus applies? really??
Allow it to have the velocity bonus too at a minimum.

ROF and damage. But I agree, velocity should also be included.



same as i said....

include:
dmg, rof and missile velocity

exclude:
explosion radius and explosion velocity

then RHML should be ok