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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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Sturmwolke
#201 - 2013-10-01 21:27:14 UTC
Well, this highsec POCO implementation is pretty much skewed in favor of large alliances and large entities to exploit. All they have to do is grab as many as possible in the opening stages and pretty much sit on them, until another large alliance or entities decide to contest them. It's pretty obvious the wardec cost alone will make the whole thing uneconomical for minor entities to even bother with. This whole scheme, when the dusts settle (i.e when bumping off highsec POCOs gets old), will revert to the stagnancy akin to nullsec nowadays.

The wardec cost remains the biggest issue - which if exploited to the max drifts (over time) into super entities in highsec , instead of many small/medium independent holders. I don't think that'll improve gameplay, looking into the future. War, by itself is fine. Now, if only there was a concept of limited war where you pay the minimum fees to strike at specific targets ....
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#202 - 2013-10-01 21:31:56 UTC
Raindeth wrote:
High-sec POCOs: Another genuinely good CCP idea that is about to be ruined by CCP because they are BAD at details!

Let me fix it for you:

1. Make customs offices have NOTHING to do with CONCORD. Anyone doing anything to a CO will not be accosted by CONCORD, nor protected by them. Incidentally, this makes sense as CONCORD is losing control of all of their COs. Why should they protect anything? So, this will remove the prohibitive wardec cost which has been oft brought up in this thread (and has yet to even be acknowledged by CCP). Also, whomever is attacking a POCO will get a suspect flag, making them attack-able by anyone in system, including a bunch of non-affiliated solo players who can "work together" on the reinforce timer to protect the CO if they like the tax levels and/or owning corp/alliance.


Concord will protect player owned customs offices for the same reason they protect player POS's and player ships. If you didn't require a wardec to destroy a POCO, then groups could simply destroy every customs office in highsec, and nobody would be able to prevent it.


Raindeth wrote:
2. Remove NPC tax completely from POCOs. These are PLAYER OWNED Customs Offices. The incentive to use lowsec COs should have nothing to do with an NPC imposed tax. Better resources maybe? Maybe.. just MAYBE lowsec should have the best resources.. better than nullsec since given risk vs reward it is definitely more risky to do PI in lowsec than in nullsec or wormholes. An NPC tax on highsec doesn't even address the incentive to use lowsec. It only lowers the revenue collected by highsec POCO owners, as they will adjust their tax rates to keep people in highsec.


Why is it more risky to do PI in lowsec as opposed to nullsec? In lowsec there are no bubbles to catch your ship, so something like a viator can very easily, and low risk, enter lowsec and collect resources. I'll concur that trying to do PI in Amamake would be difficult, just like trying to do PI in a hostile nullsec system would be difficult, but so what. The NPC tax plays a major role in distinguishing the profitability between highsec and lowsec/nullsec/wh operations. This is a GOOD thing!


Raindeth wrote:
3. Work on some mechanism (structure, DUST, whatever) that allows solo and small group players to protect their POCO assets with ISK. Strangely, not all MMO computer nerds are masters at social interaction, much less organization. Do we need to continue to require that as a prerequisite for success, or could the trader who has amassed 2 trillion ISK buy some.. oh I don't know... sentry guns, drones, NPC mercs, whatever, that will reliably add defense to his property?

Thanks for reading, CCP.


Protecting your POCO with isk. Did you know you can.... if your POCO is attacked, be waiting to anchor an install another POCO (preferable in an alt corp) the moment yours gets blown up. Pay mercs to protect it. Pay the attackers to leave it alone. As for inhibiting attack via isk, this would defeat one of the major, major purposes of POCO's.... To be a conflict driver!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#203 - 2013-10-01 21:37:17 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Well, this highsec POCO implementation is pretty much skewed in favor of large alliances and large entities to exploit. All they have to do is grab as many as possible in the opening stages and pretty much sit on them, until another large alliance or entities decide to contest them. It's pretty obvious the wardec cost alone will make the whole thing uneconomical for minor entities to even bother with. This whole scheme, when the dusts settle (i.e when bumping off highsec POCOs gets old), will revert to the stagnancy akin to nullsec nowadays.

The wardec cost remains the biggest issue - which if exploited to the max drifts (over time) into super entities in highsec , instead of many small/medium independent holders. I don't think that'll improve gameplay, looking into the future. War, by itself is fine. Now, if only there was a concept of limited war where you pay the minimum fees to strike at specific targets ....


How many wardecs do you think goons get a week? And when you wardec them, how are they going to realize your doing it to shoot a POCO.

Furthermore, do you know how easy it is to make their life miserable... Blow up a POCO (it won't be hard if you have even 10 players at your side), and then setup your own... in an ALT corp. Take a dozen, and use a dozen different corps to do so. Now goons have to wardec a dozen corps to capture each POCO. Do you have any idea what type of nightmare this will be for a long-distance landlord to deal with?

My god people, use your head, think outside of the box. Or welcome your overlords.
Chamile Eonic
The Church of MDAMC
#204 - 2013-10-01 21:43:28 UTC
Can anyone explain why we need to be at war with the owner of the POCO?

From a game mechanics point of view it makes it much harder for small corps to get involved in the whole POCO bashing thing. While big groups can fight over them until Goons own the majority, wouldn't it be more interesting to have everyone fighting over them?

I assume there is something I am missing to explain why the wardec is needed.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2013-10-01 21:44:33 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Aryth wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:


moving more towards sociopaths online


Fixed that for you


New Acronymn: NSASO

NSA Sociopaths online - secretly spying on your game play - to protect your freedom!


They gotta up their spying game then. Where else but EVE can you communicate with hundreds of other players in hostile nations everyday and blend your signal into the noise?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#206 - 2013-10-01 21:45:15 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Elana Maggal wrote:
Aryth wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:


moving more towards sociopaths online


Fixed that for you


New Acronymn: NSASO

NSA Sociopaths online - secretly spying on your game play - to protect your freedom!


They gotta up their spying game then. Where else but EVE can you communicate with hundreds of other players in hostile nations everyday and blend your signal into the noise?


LOL
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#207 - 2013-10-01 21:50:34 UTC
so what you're saying is that there is some truth to the whole Glenn Beck theory then
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#208 - 2013-10-01 22:02:49 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:

Then you are aware a 500 mil wardec just to fight over a custom's office is absurd. No hi-sec player will want to pay that for PI.


500m is a lot of isk to a new player. But so is the 130m price tag of a single POCO. And only those industrious players that wish to create their own POCO empires need to worry about the wardec in the first place. All you have to do, as a risk adverse carebear, is find a group of POCO's that you can use for reasonable profits. And if you can't, find antoher business!

Elana Maggal wrote:

PI was intended for a viable income for new players. Hi-sec was originally intended for low-risk income base, and is very suitable for solo players who do not wish to get involved in nul-sec alliance play - or more importantly, for player alts who
want to make an income not dependent on the good will of nul-sec alliances and a ridiculously few wealthy nul-sec power players. What is being proposed here takes away options from hi-sec players - it will give more control of PI to the big
Alliances and the control will not be competitive economically. It might be competitive militarily but only between big alliances
- so it will turn hi-sec into a nul-sec big alliance war ground.


PI will still be a viable income for new players. There will be plenty of planets they can utilize, and most of them will have tax rates below the current 17%. Furthermore, most of the things you already do are "off the good will of a few nullsec powerblocs". Every t2 item is created using moongoo, most of which are controlled by nullsec power blocs. The real result of this change will be lower taxes for most PI products, although "interdiciton planets and their associated products" will become more profitable for those who venture outside of highsec POCO conquistadors.


Elana Maggal wrote:

4.) Highsec has been under extreme economic manipulation for a very, very long time (look at moongoo, ice interdictions, and many, many more). From wealthy highsec industrialists to major nullsec alliances to that new player experimenting with module prices in your local trade hub, it has been going on since the game started. This provides a new method of resource manipulation, but that isn't some bad thing, nor is it a simple thing to implement either. You live with it right now, and it hasn't destroyed the economy or gimped your playstyle. This may make the PI market a bit more volatile, but volatile markets leave lots of room for players to make lots of isk. And if you are simply a resource harvester that wants to accrue some extra isk by PI'ing, you don't lose anything as you still gain PI resources.

Why do you care if every plasma planet in highsec is controlled by a major alliance. Unless those major alliances produce more enriched uranium or whatever else your producing on that plasma planet than all of EvE consumes, the market will balance out reflect the increased costs of acquiring such products. Furthermore, if costs rise enough, you can harvest the resources from two non-plasma planets and combine them to produce anything you could on a plasma planet.

The sky isn't falling, the market generally passes taxes on to the consumer, and while the goons can manipulate markets, the average player simply pays $4 / gallon of gas this month instead of $3.50.

hi-sec has been under economic manipulation but not a monopoly. This will monopolize the high value PI planets and will make running POS's in hi-sec more expensive. (Which probably has been the plan all along.) It's too bad CPP couldn't be more creative in their design and instead of taking away options from hi-sec players - thought up ways to add more options and extend hi-sec play.


Are you this ignorant? Do you know what OTEC was? It was a oligopoly of the bottleneck moongoo Technitium. By purposely limiting supply, they drove the profitability of Tech through the roof. Be that as it may, it was an oligopoly, not a monopoly. And large alliances fought long and hard for these profitable moons.

Who cares if operating a POS in highsec becomes more expensive... Be a smart businessman and pass that cost on to your consumer.
Finally, there will NOT BE A MONOPOLY. Are you dumb. Even if goons took every plasma planet, you could make the plasma-planet products on a barren planet, simply import the materials there and boom.


Elana Maggal wrote:
One way to extend options here and make it more competitive would be to allow multiple custom's offices at a single planet. Then there would be no monopoly on a planet's resources.

And the argument that there are plenty of other planets is a bogus one - as anyone who has played Eve long enough - especially in hi-sec realizes where the hubs of play are - Jita, Dodixie etc. and certain locations are only available for POS managing, Ice mining and PI. So there might be thousands of planets out there - but we all know that it will really come down to a relatively few sectors of planets - where most of the Industrialists work out of (easy to identify) and control of the most critical planets PLASMA & LAVA.

So the multiple planets arguments is BS. The Big Alliances WILL HAVE A PI MONOPOLIES with the current proposed changes.


Multiple customs offices on a planet would be ********. You could never control planetary resources coming off that planet then, and the taxes your POCO collected would be easily negated.

And I understand why you are complaining. You obviously have some profitable PI scheme setup in a trade hub and you don't want your cash cow inconvenienced by this new mechanic. Plan to adapt already! Hell, use red frog to move the goods to an isolated area and run your PI there. Your being pretty insane tbh, but now you know how all those tech-moon holders felt when moongoo was changed!
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#209 - 2013-10-01 22:05:53 UTC
Hi Sec POCO's - a great idea about to be ruined by CCP's lack of attention to detail.

As soon as a Hi Sec POCO is taken by a large player organization, the cost of wardeccing that group makes attacking the POCO uneconomic.

Thats a broken mechanic.

I dont know why Im even bothering to post this. We all know its broken, everything else is just noise.

WTB : An image in my signature
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#210 - 2013-10-01 22:07:48 UTC
Chamile Eonic wrote:
Can anyone explain why we need to be at war with the owner of the POCO?

From a game mechanics point of view it makes it much harder for small corps to get involved in the whole POCO bashing thing. While big groups can fight over them until Goons own the majority, wouldn't it be more interesting to have everyone fighting over them?

I assume there is something I am missing to explain why the wardec is needed.



This actually protects the little guys.

If you didn't have to be at war, a large alliance could simply roll through highsec willy-nilly destroying POCO's. By forcing them to wardec each POCO owner they wish to nab, they have to spend time and prepare for the assault. This allows a little guy to call in allies, to setup defense fleets, etc. Furthermore, you could conceivable control 10 planets in a system, each under the ownership of a distinct corp, which stretches the resources required by a large group to claim all of your POCO's. Couple this with the ability to have those 10 POCO's come out every other hour of the day, and it will be an utter nightmare for an opponent to claim all your POCOs.
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#211 - 2013-10-01 22:10:12 UTC
Attempt to popularize / reanimate Dust by bringing it to more crowded hi-sec?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-10-01 22:11:01 UTC
Chamile Eonic wrote:
Can anyone explain why we need to be at war with the owner of the POCO?

From a game mechanics point of view it makes it much harder for small corps to get involved in the whole POCO bashing thing. While big groups can fight over them until Goons own the majority, wouldn't it be more interesting to have everyone fighting over them?

I assume there is something I am missing to explain why the wardec is needed.



The wardec is necessary because it allows the owners to defend the POCO when it comes out of reinforced. Allowing them to be reinforced and killed without a wardec is silly.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
None ofthe Above
#213 - 2013-10-01 22:27:06 UTC
Oh here's another wild idea:

Instead of converting all COs to Interbus and allowing them to be taken over:

Convert by Sec status:

Start with 0.5s and see how that goes. If that works out go to 0.6s. Etc...

Probably recommend never doing 0.9s and 1.0s leaving those in CONCORD hands for newbs to continue using without dealing with "POCO Cartels"

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#214 - 2013-10-01 22:30:48 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Oh here's another wild idea:

Instead of converting all COs to Interbus and allowing them to be taken over:

Convert by Sec status:

Start with 0.5s and see how that goes. If that works out go to 0.6s. Etc...

Probably recommend never doing 0.9s and 1.0s leaving those in CONCORD hands for newbs to continue using without dealing with "POCO Cartels"

naw
None ofthe Above
#215 - 2013-10-01 22:31:07 UTC
Andski wrote:
Chamile Eonic wrote:
Can anyone explain why we need to be at war with the owner of the POCO?

From a game mechanics point of view it makes it much harder for small corps to get involved in the whole POCO bashing thing. While big groups can fight over them until Goons own the majority, wouldn't it be more interesting to have everyone fighting over them?

I assume there is something I am missing to explain why the wardec is needed.



The wardec is necessary because it allows the owners to defend the POCO when it comes out of reinforced. Allowing them to be reinforced and killed without a wardec is silly.


Have to say I agree with you here.

And actually I am interested to see various null powers get more involved in High Sec. I think this will be fascinating. I just want to make sure its in a well designed system that isn't going to go sideways more or less immediately.

Looking forward to an influence map that shows # POCOs for High Sec equivalent of SOV.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
None ofthe Above
#216 - 2013-10-01 22:32:22 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
Oh here's another wild idea:

Instead of converting all COs to Interbus and allowing them to be taken over:

Convert by Sec status:

Start with 0.5s and see how that goes. If that works out go to 0.6s. Etc...

Probably recommend never doing 0.9s and 1.0s leaving those in CONCORD hands for newbs to continue using without dealing with "POCO Cartels"

naw


Well articulated response. Thank you so much.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
None ofthe Above
#217 - 2013-10-01 22:33:59 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Attempt to popularize / reanimate Dust by bringing it to more crowded hi-sec?


Zero-g battles inside POCOs? Sound like a blast.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#218 - 2013-10-01 22:34:55 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
Oh here's another wild idea:

Instead of converting all COs to Interbus and allowing them to be taken over:

Convert by Sec status:

Start with 0.5s and see how that goes. If that works out go to 0.6s. Etc...

Probably recommend never doing 0.9s and 1.0s leaving those in CONCORD hands for newbs to continue using without dealing with "POCO Cartels"

naw


Well articulated response. Thank you so much.

GBS LOGISTICS AND FIVES SUPPORT [MY 5S] prides itself on well-articulated correspondence

and well-reticulated splines
Sturmwolke
#219 - 2013-10-01 22:35:31 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

How many wardecs do you think goons get a week? And when you wardec them, how are they going to realize your doing it to shoot a POCO.

Furthermore, do you know how easy it is to make their life miserable... Blow up a POCO (it won't be hard if you have even 10 players at your side), and then setup your own... in an ALT corp. Take a dozen, and use a dozen different corps to do so. Now goons have to wardec a dozen corps to capture each POCO. Do you have any idea what type of nightmare this will be for a long-distance landlord to deal with?

My god people, use your head, think outside of the box. Or welcome your overlords.

Yep, and that those wardecs, regardless of how many, still costs a tidy sum to those joining. It'll be a numbers game, how many POCOs will it be worth? (assuming they get to keep it till it breaks-even or turn a profit).
Give it some thought.

The second paragraph pretty much describes the typical metagame one can adopt to counter-grief, however, that comes at a cost. Obvious ones are dealing with your legion of alts, plus having no substance when it comes to defending or holding it against anyone if they decide to contest. Even if you try put substance (read manpower), do you really want to spend all your time corp hopping multiple alts? No, the majority players out there won't stoop to this sort of nonsense over an extended period of time. Limited effectiveness, it's just pointless gameplay .... now, throw in bottomless isk into the equation, the whole effort is treated like a mosquito bite. Finally, sooner or later, if it gets abused too much, dear CCP will step in.

Meanwhile, we still have a pink elephant in the room i.e. the massive advantage conferred, borderline unfair. It's still a problem. It's still a concern. Standard wardecs is just pew pew, no real long term profits. POCO related wardecs have real long term profit potential ..... and yet, uses the same wardec mechanics. The current POCOs in lowsec/null costs zero isk to bump off, all you need is manpower - which can be repeated with any frequency until one side just gives up. You cannot do the same with highsec POCOs.
Del DelVechio
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#220 - 2013-10-01 22:40:10 UTC
All your base are belong to us.....And your tears too.....