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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#4581 - 2013-10-01 15:03:19 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.


Also, I just thought of something...

This is actually good for high sec mission corps...

Most of the time they don't fight wars because they either don't know how to pvp fit ships, or their afraid of losses.

It's a ship that could be used to counter these small war dec fieets that aggress easy high sec targets.

I mean, it may not happen this way, but it's a possibility.
They'll probably just turn into expensive loss mails. Fitting a ship for pvp vs pve is different. As is having tactics for pvp, tackle, ewar, etc. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if you don't know what you're doing, a strong tank (from Bastion) isn't going to matter.

To Ytterbium--Bastion now stops bumping? And if not, are you going to compensate with a tracking buff in Bastion, considering the ship really can do nothing if its being bumped.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4582 - 2013-10-01 15:04:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.


And thank you Sir. This may not be perfect, but the second take on marauders was just horrible. Both proposals sucked for PvP, both were bad in fleets, etc. But the first one is an ultimate solo ratting ship. If I have to chose between a ship that can do only one thing well, and a ship that can't do anything well, I obviously chose the first one.

Still I hope you develope a 3rd proposal, and if not - at lest do something with the tractor bonus - in light of Rubicon it has no sence.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4583 - 2013-10-01 15:11:07 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:


  • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
  • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.


And thank you Sir. This may not be perfect, but the second take on marauders was just horrible. Both proposals sucked for PvP, both were bad in fleets, etc. But the first one is an ultimate solo ratting ship. If I have to chose between a ship that can do only one thing well, and a ship that can't do anything well, I obviously chose the first one.

Still I hope you develope a 3rd proposal, and if not - at lest do something with the tractor bonus - in light of Rubicon it has no sence.


I would like to see a 3rd iteration come in that doesn't change bastion, but instead focuses on the base hull, so that the ship hull can be more effective by itself.

I would very much like to see the removal of the 8th high, and place that into a mid or low slot.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4584 - 2013-10-01 15:14:21 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?


Because it's true.

If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you.
When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit.

However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster.
In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range.

Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships.
So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets...

I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake...

Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder.


Yea.. MJD + range = you really don't need a tank proper man.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4585 - 2013-10-01 15:15:52 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

3 Marauders with Scorch is better DPS than 2 Marauders with Conflag and a logi.


If you figure in sentry's the difference is minimal, tipple boxing 3 marauders effective is a pain and again you need the logi for cap anyway if you want to do it effective.

Xequecal wrote:
Honestly, there's nothing stopping you from running a MJD and an afterburner, bastion means you can pretty much 1-slot tank L4s. This is IMHO why they nerfed the drone bays, or people would do ridiculous gimmick fits like 2-slot shield tanking their Paladin with 4 heatsinks and 3 drone damage mods. The Tach comment is just nonsensical, Tachs with MF or Gleam have far worse DPS and tracking than pulses with Scorch.


The limited amount of med slots and the brick treatment of the marauders do actually stop me from doing just this. You can 2 slot tank L4 now(even with armor) and I actually do this most of the time, because incoming dps with proper dps application is next to zero and therefore I am just left with a lot less dps and speed in exchange for something you only need if you over tank the hulls or don't utilize RR.

I think you really should go back and check on how much applied dps a proper tach setup pull up compared with scorch, since you are pretty much wrong on it.

A puls Paladin(T2 rof rig, 4 facton damage mods, both 6% imps) with scorch does 968 dps, while a tach Paladin(same fitting) does 1168 dps with IN multi and 1185 with gleam. Also against nearly every rat the more thermal heavy Tachyons produce higher applied dps, since the overall damage shifts a lot later to EM damage, compared to puls use.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4586 - 2013-10-01 15:42:43 UTC
I wonder if ccp might look into these ship n think that the shield and armour ones are very different. mybe we could see the shield ships keep the 7.5% bonus to boosters but the armour ships may benifit more from 4% armour resist bonus
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#4587 - 2013-10-01 15:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ager Agemo
Lair Osen wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
so a dominix is still better than any marauder for making isk, and for fleets? why is it so hard to just turn marauders into marauders and make them oversized HACs?

bastion is a death sentence in fleets, no one is going to use them on true fleets.


That's the point though.

They're intended to be solo ships, which makes them niche in pvp.

If you want a fleet ship, get a different ship



Solo ships in a Massive online game... something feels off don't you think?



hmmm so I have been thinking about it and like... if you change the mjd to mwd cap use, that would make bastion marauders pretty nice, bastion would be like omfg emergency switch when things go bad so you can get help, wouldn't that be better? plus mjd is useless in pve :( I m not going to do Pythagoras each time I want to land at a jump gate, that's asking too much -.-


Freighters, indys and exploration ships are all designed for solo use, get over it.

If you want something thats fast and high damage with a good tank, you already have HACs, T3s and Command Ships and Pirate ships somewhat. I don't see why the game needs another class like this.

MJD is great for PvE, especially where jump gates are involved, and snipey fits or range bonused bastion fits, since jump gates tend to put you in blobs of enemies and MJD allows you to instantly pull range and force enemies to come at you with no transversal.
It also makes it a lot harder to get your ship killed in PvE since you can MJD away from any pointing frigs.

EDIT: Also the MJD is actually the OMFG GTFO switch, allowing you to get away almost instantly regardless of pointing frigs. Anchoring yourself in place for a minute after your tank has been breaking is a terrible idea.


Scrams deactivate MJDs, so they wont help you, sub bs ships do not have good dps, and mjds have a spool up so you wont be saved anyway if you land in the middle of camp.

anchoring knowing your tank will become 3 or 4 times stronger, is a great way to make up time so you can call for reinforcements, personally I have saved myself a few times overloading tank modules while someone saved me with a blackbird and jammed the attacking players.


On a side note, when you decide to fly your freighter and indies solo, make sure to give me call so I can take advantage of the loot piñata.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4588 - 2013-10-01 16:17:26 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Questio to CCP Ytterbium.

How you guys intend to evaluate marauders in the test server when the largest issue right now is envisioning realistic tactical situations where the ship is worthwhile?

The theoretical numbers of the bastion mode are easy to run. The hard thing is to find situations where a marauder would be much better than a normal battleship. More in fleets (Even small ones) when logistics and Battleships are not vaslty superior to marauders?


The alrgest issue with the bastion proposal is that it adds OVERTANKING to PVE, that helps in nothing, and has very little tactical value in PVP (near to nothing since other more common options are far superior if yu want to keep your firepower alive.)



I expect them to see HEAVY use in high sec POS bashing.


Also, I just thought of something...

This is actually good for high sec mission corps...

Most of the time they don't fight wars because they either don't know how to pvp fit ships, or their afraid of losses.

It's a ship that could be used to counter these small war dec fieets that aggress easy high sec targets.

I mean, it may not happen this way, but it's a possibility.



Not gonna work They do not have the buffer to resist a manned POS, they wil be easily crushed by large POS guns. I would love my wartargets to try using marauders with basion. Woudl simply give me tons of expensive kills that are easier to kill than a HAC.




One usage I tought, that goes nicely is Add to bastion mode the following. 100% remote repair range 100% remote repair effectiveness and 50% reduction in RR capacitor.

No this will nto make logistics obsolete. Logistics are still the shisp for mobile work. And the marauders become mini triage boats. Mini because their bonus is not that strogn but enough so that whiel in bastion mode they can support rest of fleet.


That removes one of the fails of the Bastion mode, the fact ath in gang simply peopel will fire at other ships and ignore the bastion marauder, because cotnrary to dreds they are not significantly more dangeroud while in siege/bastion.. This capability hardly will become OP, because while immobile they achor the whole fleet if there is need fo the RR.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4589 - 2013-10-01 16:19:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Random Woman wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change.



Does that mean the mass increase in bastion mode is back too? Because that is the killer feature for me, it would make those completly useless ships rather nice for closing WHs.


No, there is no mass increase in Bastion mode anymore, even if you can't align or move when it is active.



I'm still a sad panda thinking of my Marauder skill being quite useless for pvp, I mean, there's nothing a Marauders offers to me for pvp I can't do it with a cheaper Battleship.

I want something special, not necessary a new role but something where my skill training effort justifies the acquisition and playing with a Marauder, and I still think the Bastion module training skill is not really a reward for all the training skills required to fit/fly those ships properly.

I don't want a solo powmobile nor a massive fleet of those burning all eden to the ground in a blink of an eye or titan bridge, I want something I take the risk to fly, move in to enemy lines and have a chance to get back or put the misery on them before I blow up in a magnific explosion.

ATM doesn't fit at all in my expectations and the only ships (T3) that actually aloud this are on the verge of receiving a huge hammer nerf beyond the ground when they don't need it anymore after latest changes to other ships.

:sad panda:



the odds of someone using a sub cap hull that costs as much as a capital in pvp is pretty slim anyway.
They're going to be alpha'd off the field quickly just cause they're a heavy isk loss...


Personally, i'm happy with what they're doing, even if it doesn't help their pvp effectiveness.
At least they'll be usable in other forms of solo pve, which they aren't now.


If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4590 - 2013-10-01 16:29:50 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
I wonder if ccp might look into these ship n think that the shield and armour ones are very different. mybe we could see the shield ships keep the 7.5% bonus to boosters but the armour ships may benifit more from 4% armour resist bonus



How about the opposite? WHy the armor ones shoudl get the better bonus?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4591 - 2013-10-01 16:46:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)



yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE....

Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect..

You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode....
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4592 - 2013-10-01 16:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are lvl 4 scrubs still pretending you need tank to do lvl 4 missions?


Because it's true.

If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you.
When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit.

However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster.
In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range.

Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships.
So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets...

I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake...

Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder.


Yea.. MJD + range = you really don't need a tank proper man.


These ships will work nicely as counter snipers.
t3 bc's and bs's fitted for sniping have always been a pain for people to deal with..
With marauders you can either MJD right on top of them, or you can just bastion and tank them while sniping right back at them...
Currently, there's not really anything to counter t3 bs and bc snipers... iteration 1 will change this, and Marauders will still be countered by brawlers due to tracking issues.


Edit... granted... marauders are expensive, so them being used in pvp at all is pretty slim....

With that in mind, why do we really care so much about pvp funtionality if we're all well aware that they're too pricey to bring to a fight?
Some people will use them at times, but even if they had a hard pvp centric design, they still wouldn't get used much...
Just look at blops...
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4593 - 2013-10-01 17:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Guys stop crying about their pvp application. Version mk 1 or version mk 2 you would not use them for pvp anyway. I took a liberty of chcking records of some of you and either you post with your alts or you really suck at pvp. This ship costs too much and is too immobile (even without bastion) to risk it in pvp. And this comes from a guy that regularly flies full fation-fitted ships for pvp. The only place where mk 2 coud find use is a wormhole pvp because there are no blobs there. BUT they get hard countered by Dreads which will insta-pop your 2bil marauders. Guys in wh1-3 could use them, but they don't earn enough to risk marauders in pvp

EDITED:

There is one thing where they have a PvP application: next AT. You either ban them or every teem will fly 1-2 of them...
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4594 - 2013-10-01 17:13:27 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)



yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE....

Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect..

You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode....


Ineresting, then we have:

Joe Risalo wrote:

Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x.
Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still...

I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists
from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists...


You are horrible over tanked already, around 300 dps tank is already completely sufficient for 98% of all L4 missions if played right(high dps and move the ship with a mwd to a good position to reduce incoming dps or increase applied dps). If you need that much tank you doing it wrong.

Example Recon 1/3 in the most cap hungry ship in eve with 2 cap mods, med rep and 200 dps omnitank:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1305/Abaddon_L4_Recon_1.mkv

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4595 - 2013-10-01 17:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
The Djego wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If they are powerful they will be used. See vindicators and amcahriels. Just give us a reason to brign a marauder to the field and we shall do it. But current bastion idea is not useful , not for pvp neither for PVE (again overtanking is useless)



yes, overtanking is useless, however, using a module that allows you to reduce the amount of tank modules you need, plus more range, plus ewar immunity is very nice in PVE....

Having bastion help to reduce tank mods gives us the ability to fit other items like webs, tp's, tcs, ect. ect..

You don't HAVE to overtank in bastion mode....


Ineresting, then we have:

Joe Risalo wrote:

Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x.
Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still...

I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists
from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists...


You are horrible over tanked already, around 300 dps tank is already completely sufficient for 98% of all L4 missions if played right(high dps and move the ship with a mwd to a good position to reduce incoming dps or increase applied dps). If you need that much tank you doing it wrong.

Example Recon 1/3 in the most cap hungry ship in eve with 2 cap mods, med rep and 200 dps omnitank:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1305/Abaddon_L4_Recon_1.mkv


lol, that video is blurry, but whatever.
also, recon 1/3 isn't one of the more difficult missions that requires a lot of tank.

That said though.

The fit I have built has that kind of tank, with 1015dps out to max target range, 2 tp's, and doesn't even factor in drone damage.
That's pure cruise missile damage.

What else would I do with my fit?
I could drop a resist module for propulsion, but that's about it.....

also, marauders have a bigger sig, and if you're fitting short range dps like a lot of people do, then the tank means a lot more to you than a sniper.
Bastion will do just that for all but the Golem ontil the fix torps.
There will be plenty of people that fit short range weapons for added dps since bastion buffs range..

Oh, and just cause my fit has that kind of tank doesn't mean everyone will.

If i wish to overtank, that's up to me.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4596 - 2013-10-01 17:28:00 UTC
I have to agree with the suggestion of others: remove Golem's TP bonus and replace it with an explosion radius bonus.

It was always a pain using multiple TP with a Golem anyways.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4597 - 2013-10-01 17:33:09 UTC
anyone know when these go up on test?
Jacob Bok'Kila
Logrotate Inc.
#4598 - 2013-10-01 17:51:38 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I have to agree with the suggestion of others: remove Golem's TP bonus and replace it with an explosion radius bonus.

It was always a pain using multiple TP with a Golem anyways.



This is from the first page:
"As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem."

Maybe less pain then?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#4599 - 2013-10-01 18:09:59 UTC
Alright.

Part of me is relieved that we've gone back to iteration 1, because despite the role being... Not Maraud-y at all, bonuses actually work together and aren't what a two week old player thinks "versatility" is.

The other part of me is still sad that apparently we will have to have either iteration 1, or iteration 2, and "fast battleship" Marauders will likely never be a thing. That and possible nerfs to all the pirate battleships to keep THEM from being 'fast battleships' as well (especially the Machariel, I'm predicting).
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4600 - 2013-10-01 18:28:30 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


The fit I have built has that kind of tank, with 1015dps out to max target range, 2 tp's, and doesn't even factor in drone damage.
That's pure cruise missile damage.

What else would I do with my fit?
I could drop a resist module for propulsion, but that's about it.....

also, marauders have a bigger sig, and if you're fitting short range dps like a lot of people do, then the tank means a lot more to you than a sniper.
Bastion will do just that for all but the Golem ontil the fix torps.
There will be plenty of people that fit short range weapons for added dps since bastion buffs range..

Oh, and just cause my fit has that kind of tank doesn't mean everyone will.


How about 3 painters, mwd, 3 slot tank and requesting a fast and agile torp Golem instead of the brick it is already? Am I really the only person that wants the Golem actually useful with torps again(reasonable fast, with a bigger velocity bonus to increase range and with explosion velocity bonus instead of the active tanking one) instead of being geared to towards being the lazy mans L4 ship? The golem needs a fix for torps and it needs it here and now with the changes to marauders instead betting your cards on a torp buff(given CCPs record a CM nerf is far more likely).

Joe Risalo wrote:
If i wish to overtank, that's up to me.


It is but stop pretending the changes would free slots or make them more useful for pve, they don't if you use your marauder in a effective manner(like with the suggested tank numbers).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread