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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#2941 - 2013-09-06 19:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Rowells wrote:
Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.

Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.


Why do a lot of people think it should be just better than pirate? Because it costs more in isk and sp, and if pirate is just plain better for all situations (which it is currently) then there is never a reason to get a marauder

Tanking a lot better? Ok MAYBE you have a point, but in many pve applications this doesnt help at all, and for the few it does, it means you are probably doing it solo, (i.e., doing it wrong) meaning that if you use multiple, then it is useless as they can not be RR'ed. Meaning its ONLY application is solo where tons of tank is required, which isnt going to be as efficient as a group of RR'ed ships anyway

tank a vanguard solo? Well besides the fact that was for the previous version (not the current iteration) he only explicitly said the first wave of a VG. This does not imply it can tank the whole site, in fact, even if it could he said the fit was altered to have even less dps. There would NEVER be a reason to do this because A. if you solo an incursion you get 0 pay out, and B. it would be better to use a fleet of RR'ed ships with higher dps
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#2942 - 2013-09-06 19:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Onictus wrote:

So other than saving on ammo, what is the advantage? Overtanking? Ship speed? DPS? Nothing matched up. My mach goes over 650 m/s on after burner and has a sig smaller than passive drake...with over 900 DPS to boot, it was basically a matter of charge destroy and bail.

What exactly is the motivation to train ANOTHER x10 skill and buy another expensive ship....that can't match any of it?


Dunno, really.

Right now my golem can rep 1.0something K damage per cycle. 30 - 35 % more if I use an XL-ASB. Also it can fling 1K dps at roughly 200km (if need be). And it can carry a whole lot of a heck of cap boosters... 36 to be precise + enough missiles to sterilize a planet.

BUT! And here's the thing that's really funny, if I were to use a maelstrom, I could get the same active tank out of it. I just could not carrry as many cap boosters.

And if I use a CNR I can out dps it... CNR has more raw Shield HP than the Golem ofc. but meh, I've never been good on buffer tank so I don't care about that.

So, if you want a mael with cruise missiles and still halfway decent damage. There you go. The Golem will be your new baby. Just stay away from anything that looks like it could use ecm equipment. Really anything, at all... Straight

EDIT: Golem has way better resists than the mael, ofc.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#2943 - 2013-09-06 19:11:47 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.

Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.


Not to mention you can solo level 5 missions with them after these changes. Won't need a 4 bil fit either.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2944 - 2013-09-06 19:13:36 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.

Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.


Why do a lot of people think it should be just better than pirate? Because it costs more in isk and sp, and if pirate is just plain better for all situations (which it is currently) then there is never a reason to get a marauder

Tanking a lot better? Ok MAYBE you have a point, but in many pve applications this doesnt help at all, and for the few it does, it means you are probably doing it solo, (i.e., doing it wrong) meaning that if you use multiple, then it is useless as they can not be RR'ed. Meaning its ONLY application is solo where tons of tank is required, which isnt going to be as efficient as a group of RR'ed ships anyway

tank a vanguard solo? Well besides the fact that was for the previous version (not the current iteration) he only explicitly said the first wave of a VG. This does not imply it can tank the whole site, in fact, even if it could he said the fit was altered to have even less dps. There would NEVER be a reason to do this because A. if you solo an incursion you get 0 pay out, and B. it would be better to use a fleet of RR'ed ships with higher dps

Just because RR may be better it doesn't mean solo options shouldn't exist, nor does it mean doing things solo is wrong. Less efficient? Sure, but independent operation where feasible has it's own benefits and won't be going away.
Jamie Clark
Zeonic Federation
#2945 - 2013-09-06 19:15:26 UTC
Thanks you, i was training up to fly a Vargur but now i guess i will be back to my Tengu mission running ship.

So for PVE is it going to be annoying to use the MJD to move you self in to a spot so you can warp on grid to the gate, that is also going to mess up my cap recharge rate becasue i have to remove a cap recharger.

Also with the drones, i will have one flight of salvage drones and one flight of light drones, i did like being able to have a backup set for the elite frigs that like to point you. Because you changed how npc like to kill drones.

From the sound of it you are trying to hard to make a pve ship good for pvp, take the advice in the post and make another t2 battleship.
Jamie Clark
Zeonic Federation
#2946 - 2013-09-06 19:19:00 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.


There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price.

or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points



+1
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2947 - 2013-09-06 19:20:17 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:



A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.



Get boosts + FN web



With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km.

14 * 1.345 = 18.83km



Is overheating that hard for you?

Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2948 - 2013-09-06 19:26:21 UTC
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
To be honest, when I read the first version of the bonuses and the bastion module I had one thought. Flexibility.

With that combination you could go light tanked, load up on damage application and projection mods, jump out 100K, bastion, and rain death on your enemies. And once they regrouped, you jump away and do it all over again. What fun!

or

You could way over tank it with limited damage application and MJD right into the middle of a nasty furball, spewing close range hell while your enemies ran for cover. You probably couldn't kill any of them, but they would likely want to relocate. This of course would all begin with the time honored battle shout:

"Hey! Hold my beer and watch this!!!"

Both of these roles could be had with the original version of the proposal. I would give anything to have an occasion to scream that phrase above, even to the annoyance of my real life neighbors. lol

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Daniel Mar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2949 - 2013-09-06 19:29:09 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Stirlsha wrote:
Can anyone help me understand why you would need bonuses to webifiers on a cruise missile Golem?

Am I missing something here?


That's really easy. You use the superior range of your cruise missiles to get close to the enemy and web him.

It's a win - win situation, he gets close enough to apply damage, you get close enough to use your now uber webs. Big smile


sarcasm FTW :)
hellcane
Never Back Down
#2950 - 2013-09-06 19:30:11 UTC
Well, I was excited about the marauder changes, until I read what they slapped together.

Webs on a mjd platform?
Optimal+falloff for turrets, speed for missiles?
Nothing to outperform pirate/faction hulls outside ammo usage?
No changes to tractor bonuses, even after adding mjd?
Added tank on a mjd platform?
Added tank on a pve ship?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2951 - 2013-09-06 19:31:06 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:



A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.



Get boosts + FN web



With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km.

14 * 1.345 = 18.83km



Is overheating that hard for you?

Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges?


Constant?

OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats


....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2952 - 2013-09-06 19:37:29 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Is overheating that hard for you?

Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges?


Constant?

OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats


....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay.

Ironically, it was the people complaining about the loss of the web bonus in PvE that resulted in the last presented iteration of the marauder proposal. That aside, yes, according to this very thread people can and do use that bonus in PvE. Personally I don't, but I'm not such a special snow flake to assume superiority over everyone else for it.
Daniel Mar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2953 - 2013-09-06 19:38:52 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.

Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.


Not to mention you can solo level 5 missions with them after these changes. Won't need a 4 bil fit either.

Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....

Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;)
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2954 - 2013-09-06 19:43:06 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.


There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price.

or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points

There was something big that they tried to balance by making the price extremely high and the skill points extremely intensive hoping that it would create and artificial restriction on the number of these ships.
Just cant think of what they areRoll.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2955 - 2013-09-06 19:43:19 UTC
Daniel Mar wrote:
Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....

Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;)
Why not lowsec? with the MJD you have a chance of escape and with webs you can kill anyone in scram range. Still risky business but theres more reward as well
Daniel Mar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2956 - 2013-09-06 19:48:19 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Daniel Mar wrote:
Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....

Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;)
Why not lowsec? with the MJD you have a chance of escape and with webs you can kill anyone in scram range. Still risky business but theres more reward as well

Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2957 - 2013-09-06 19:53:07 UTC
Daniel Mar wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Daniel Mar wrote:
Solo lvl5? With the bastion mod online? (Cus without the rep bonus you'll need that) Lowsec?.... uhm ok.....

Now I understand why you losing all your space and catch ;)
Why not lowsec? with the MJD you have a chance of escape and with webs you can kill anyone in scram range. Still risky business but theres more reward as well

Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much

MJD spool up isn't necessary though, one could just potentially warp out if the Bastion cycle is close enough to ending. While anoms and belts make bastion ill advised, could they not work in cosmic sig sites (DED's, etc) with the added time required to scan for warp in?
Yaaar's Revenge
Lightning Squad
Snuffed Out
#2958 - 2013-09-06 19:59:27 UTC
Serious point - why not get rid of Black Ops ships and combine them into marauders, so you'd have a 4-turret marauder with the black ops stuff thrown in. And get rid of the Bastion module, just give it the ability to use a covert ops cloak. Then the complaining would stop and everyone would be happy.... Seriously please do this - I would pay through the nose for a bird of prey-esque battleship

Follow me on Twitter @Yaaars_Revenge
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2959 - 2013-09-06 20:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Daniel Mar wrote:
Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much

Why don't we see rorquals or dreads deploy or seige? They have limited defense (if any) against targets that can tackle them and their cycle is 5 minutes rather than 60 seconds. And like Tyberius said missions with deadspace require scanning down. Which gives you a warning and time to prepare to bail. Still feasible, just requires a bit more attentiveness.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2960 - 2013-09-06 20:03:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Is overheating that hard for you?

Is constant OH practical for solo PvE operation? Does it even match up on a ship that specializes in instantly transporting itself 100km then projecting damage at extreme ranges?


Constant?

OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats


....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay.

Ironically, it was the people complaining about the loss of the web bonus in PvE that resulted in the last presented iteration of the marauder proposal. That aside, yes, according to this very thread people can and do use that bonus in PvE. Personally I don't, but I'm not such a special snow flake to assume superiority over everyone else for it.


Yes, this is why everyone but you is calling bullsh*t on adding a close range bonus to a long range class without drones. Right because ships with MJD and long range firepower are meant to web their targets, for a mere 1.5 billion and a gazillion skillpoints.

MJD adds range tank, that's nice for a sniper. Bastion should add close range firepower, be it raw alpha, damage delivery or increased DPS.

That would make worth the way higher price tag.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you