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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2921 - 2013-09-06 17:16:22 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.


There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price.
Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
#2922 - 2013-09-06 17:31:29 UTC
I realize this is a tech 3ish concept for a tech 2 boat, but why not allow us to tailor the bastion module to fit our needs?

Let it retain its damage application bonuses, and current set of drawbacks, but make it consume a fuel block made of 4 different materials, and the bonuses the module applies correlates with the ratios of the material types we used to build it.

For example, lets say we build these fuel blocks with heavy water, liquid ozone, enriched uranium and a racial isotope, and the bastion module can provide a bonus to either local reps, shield/armor resists, further damage app, or a racial ewar.

So if someone wanted 100% bonus to local reps, they would build their fuel blocks using only heavy water, or a person wanting full T2 resists would use only liquid ozone. Someone wishing to further enhance damage application would build their fuel blocks mixing enriched uranium and the racial isotope that matched the ewar bonus they wanted.

This kind of functionality already exists with scripted modules, should be easy enough to extend to this setting.

Also not being able to be remotely assisted while in bastion mode kills many potential uses, I am fine with all drawbacks save that.

and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2923 - 2013-09-06 17:34:17 UTC
Lacun Motabilum wrote:

and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.



Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#2924 - 2013-09-06 17:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.


There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price.

or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#2925 - 2013-09-06 17:38:49 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Well the only think that seems generally accepted ( that is not same as unanimously) is that web bonus do not match MJD bonuses....


I can can understand the Khronos with the web bonus.. get CLose to enemy WEb them And THEN enter in bastion :P


But for others is too.. non useful.


They would do better with tracking and explosion velocity bonus in bastion mode, as they're prevented from relying on drones. "I jump 100 km and then let you get closer than 27 km to web you, mwahahaha!" is kind of silly. Whereas "You cornered me, now EAT FIRE" makes more sense, IMO.



The vargur already have that tracking bonus :P


What i Think is that ALL the web bonsu shoudl be come another DAMAGE bonus. YEs DAMAGE, there is nothting so strange on T2 battleships taht enter in a type of siege mode, to have higher damage than T1 battleships.


Even if the damage bonus only applies while in bastion mode.

For example 5% damage per level WHILE in bastion mode.

That is helpful for BOTH PVE and PVP. Woudl make the ship better at BOTH situations, sicne killing enemies faster is the best tank you can have in missions, you would be LOVED in wormholes and incursiosn (if you are tough enough to tank it) and you would be amazing high sec POS killer.


Well, the Marauder class already haves a damage bonus (+100%), that's why I didn't suggested to top alpha damage...


easy... 5% rof then...


Well, that would be nice but maybe would need a cap usage bonus on the Paladin and Kronos, to compensate.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
#2926 - 2013-09-06 17:41:38 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:

and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.



Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game.




The bonus itself isnt bland, its the lack a variety across the class.

No racial flavor = bland.

Its like eating tacos with no seasoning, spaghetti with no sauce, pizza with no cheese, all bland.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#2927 - 2013-09-06 17:43:26 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.



So at first you buffed their tank but not their dps and your way to fix that is to nerf the tank?
Can you show some footage of a marauder like this being used compared to a current maurauder ?

Also with the dps application wise.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2928 - 2013-09-06 17:49:41 UTC
Lacun Motabilum wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:

and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.



Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game.




The bonus itself isnt bland, its the lack a variety across the class.

No racial flavor = bland.




So

What weapon doesn't like a 90% web....better a 90% faction web being laid on a close target?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2929 - 2013-09-06 17:53:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:


So

What weapon doesn't like a 90% web....better a 90% faction web being laid on a close target?


I bolded the important part with the MJD and Long range weapons the web bonus is superflous.

now a web range bonus... now we are talking... but that should be built into the bastion mod and not the hull. IMO

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
#2930 - 2013-09-06 17:54:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:

and finally, please don't keep the universal webbing bonus, that is a very bland flavor.



Except that it is an application bonus to EVERY single weapon in the game.




The bonus itself isnt bland, its the lack a variety across the class.

No racial flavor = bland.




So

What weapon doesn't like a 90% web....better a 90% faction web being laid on a close target?



A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2931 - 2013-09-06 17:54:54 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.

With the drone bay nerf the Golem does less damage than a plain T1 Raven
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2932 - 2013-09-06 17:56:31 UTC
Lacun Motabilum wrote:



A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.



Get boosts + FN web
Lacun Motabilum
Shadow Brokers
#2933 - 2013-09-06 18:02:37 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:



A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.



Get boosts + FN web



With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km.

14 * 1.345 = 18.83km
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2934 - 2013-09-06 18:10:11 UTC
Lacun Motabilum wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Lacun Motabilum wrote:



A stationary weapon, whose target is 20km away.



Get boosts + FN web



With 1.1 out max range boost on a web is 34.5%, range on fed navy web = 14km.

14 * 1.345 = 18.83km



Is overheating that hard for you?
Daniel Mar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2935 - 2013-09-06 18:38:44 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.


There needs to be a defined advantage or I will just use a T1 at 1/4 of the hull price.

or pirate for the same cost, but way less skill points

that ^
is it just me or do other ppl see these changes as nerf aswell rather than buffing marauders?

PVP:
No one in low or null will ever use a bastion module, that would make the fleet a sitting duck ready to be sniped. that **** is just terribad for pvp together with the removal of the little armor marauders have. not even starting with the fact of only 2 rig slots compared to navy and pirate BS, which makes the armor/shield removal even more bad.

Marauder 2 rigs, 8k armor... Navy/Pirate 3 rigs, 10k armor. the little better resits will not make up for a missing rig and 2k less armor and the derp price tag.
Also, there is not a single scenario I can imagine a Golem with cruise or Paladin with Beams, sitting there with and activated bastion module. lets face is those weapon systems are dead for pvp... and short range systems with being pinned down and not able to move?... dont see that happening.
Kronos and Vargur perhaps as sniper but lol I'd still use a Tier3, Rokh or Mega fleet any day.


PvE:
And removing the rep bonus and drones makes the ship terribly bad and even less used for PvE. I see no reason not to use a navy or pirate ship.

Golem for example is so terrible cus it fires only 4 missiles with 200% damage each. BUT, mission npc use defender missiles and pop them, wich removes 25% of your volley or even 50% if they pop 2.
That ship badly needs a Missile HP bonus to make it useful for pve. Navy Raven is just so much better...

Paladin.... no idea, but a neut resistance bonus comes to my mind. just cus amarr is so neutery stuff. Not sure if thats actually useful for PvE or pvp, but its a start.

And yeah that useless tractor bonus is totally outdated since the introduction of the noctis.

Not sure waht to say about vargur and kronos. I liked them as they were and have no further ideas yet.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2936 - 2013-09-06 18:40:47 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marauders have plenty of damage, Damage application bonuses are much better served for there function.



Doing same damage as T1 is NOT plenety of damage.


T1 battleships can be remote repaired and do same damage, at a fraction of cost.

Pirate battleships do MORE damage.


On cruiser hulls projection is a good way to boost T2 version, but on battleships is not, because for example an APOC already has an ABSURD projection and more of it will not help. Only damage remains

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Hypercake Mix
#2937 - 2013-09-06 18:43:14 UTC
My mids and lows can't hold all these modules.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#2938 - 2013-09-06 18:57:05 UTC
Stirlsha wrote:
Can anyone help me understand why you would need bonuses to webifiers on a cruise missile Golem?

Am I missing something here?


That's really easy. You use the superior range of your cruise missiles to get close to the enemy and web him.

It's a win - win situation, he gets close enough to apply damage, you get close enough to use your now uber webs. Big smile

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2939 - 2013-09-06 18:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Crysantos Callahan
Well let's assume we want to work on a marauder with the idea to make it a sniping, i.e. long range, extremely tanky ship with good damage application. The mjd bonus is implying that ccp wants the ship to work at a range around 100km +-50km.

The bastion mode is a good idea, the basic boosts it provides are perfectly fine and make sense. I'd even go so far to add a sig malus like with mwds... but the local rep boost should be reintegrated, it's an essential feature. On the other hand the t2 resists should be in line with the factions the marauders make sense to fight, just take a look at the paladin. This is a pve ship...

When it comes to the webbing bonus... it doesn't make sense for me to include that when the ship is supposed to work at range, so it would make more sense to add a TP range bonus, at least into bastion mode. The webbing bonus just doesnt fit into the current idea. I like the tractor beams/salvagers on this ship, but it does lack the range to compete with a noctis and it's very immobile. So I'd suggest to include a tractor range similar to the noctis.

Torpedoes need to be looked at in general, not just for the golem.

Tldr:

- Tp range/strength boni to bastion mode
- tractor beam range boni
- local rep bonus back on the hull
- sig blossom effect while in bastion mode
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2940 - 2013-09-06 18:59:06 UTC
Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.

Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.