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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2661 - 2013-09-05 19:21:47 UTC
maGz wrote:
Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.

Just an idea...

here it is again, I'd be rather surprised if the next iteration isn't something along this line

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2662 - 2013-09-05 19:23:21 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


In truth, the bastion mode is about damage projection, if I'm understanding your intentions. I fully support the removal of the 30% resist bonus, but perhaps it should be replaced with a 50-100% boost to the range of Skirmish mods (scrams, pts, and webs). This fits with it's damage projection.

I'd rather like them to not do that. For them to not jump, you'd need to be within the 12/15something scramrange you can normally get out of your ship, that already is close to the 14km(19/25) a marauder could use to start stopping you. If you were to significantly increase the webrange, marauders would be very safe in those situations.


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

At the end of the day though, the biggest issue these behemoths will have is cap pressure. Without increased cap generation (like triage carriers get), these simply won't have the ability to operate for terribly long. They essentially run their tank off cap boosters, which will run out!


They got a big hold and require little ammo, so you could have quite some time. Remember the shield booster /armor repair system is twice as efficient :P


They do have a big hold, and have enough charges to run for ~10 minutes at full power. But that's really not all that long. Furthermore, neuting these things will turn off active hardeners, which will dramatically reduce their tanks. It will be their primary weakness.

As for the web range bonus... I really think it meshes well with the increased damage projection. I don't think it should have "Recon" level range, but somewhere in the middle.

Sigras
Conglomo
#2663 - 2013-09-05 19:24:49 UTC
I dont understand why everyone is freaking out about the bastion module and how well it may or may not work in PvP; it isnt as though the module HAS to be used.

Its just like the carrier, sometimes you use triage, other times it turns your ship into a flying coffin . . .

As it stands right now, I can see these ships warping in at 100 and sniping, then using the MJD to escape when anyone gets too close.

If you had some tackle frigates to keep fast interceptors off, you could easily just keep MJDing away from everyone and they'd never catch up to you, especially if youre MWDing away from them as soon as you land.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2664 - 2013-09-05 19:25:25 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:


T2 resists.
100km travel time after MJD and range bonus.


I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP.

I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in.

And double active repair.

It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.

Beyond what you need isn't enough. There are several ships that perform beyond necessity but aren't used because others do it better. As I said before, I don't want to have to have bastion(+MJD) just to have a complete competitive ship. T2 resist alone won't give us that. We have 2 examples of where the benefit of those resists are marginalized by factional rat damage output, one of which can't just change to another target without wasting damage into high resists.

And really, given gank > tank, T2 resists still fall short of making the ships competitive. Best case they help RR, and for 2 ships give a minor advantage to what they already had tank wise.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2665 - 2013-09-05 19:29:57 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I dont understand why everyone is freaking out about the bastion module and how well it may or may not work in PvP; it isnt as though the module HAS to be used.

Its just like the carrier, sometimes you use triage, other times it turns your ship into a flying coffin . . .

As it stands right now, I can see these ships warping in at 100 and sniping, then using the MJD to escape when anyone gets too close.

If you had some tackle frigates to keep fast interceptors off, you could easily just keep MJDing away from everyone and they'd never catch up to you, especially if youre MWDing away from them as soon as you land.

There are ways to make anything work, but that doesn't explain why you should use a marauder. And while this could be useful, is it worth the effort compared to alternatives and will it really play out the way you want it to?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2666 - 2013-09-05 19:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Dave Stark wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.


standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp.

i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on.

if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get...

edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII

new stats are:
75 em
75 therm
90 kin
69 exp

we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference.

a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are:
74 em
72 therm
72 kin
77 exp


Test is on HACs...

Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU.
Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU.
Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU.
Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU
(These include Links).
Dave stark
#2667 - 2013-09-05 19:34:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.


standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp.

i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on.

if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get...

edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII

new stats are:
75 em
75 therm
90 kin
69 exp

we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference.

a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are:
74 em
72 therm
72 kin
77 exp


Test is on HACs...

Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU.
Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU.
Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU.
Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU
(These include Links).


ishtar gets the same resist profile with the same modules as the astarte does.

also, the resist profiles i stated are without links because for incursions you want 70% omni, before links usually.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2668 - 2013-09-05 19:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I do think you under rate the advantages of T2 resists though, I would not think 1 additional invul would come near to making up the difference in resists.


standard modules to get 70% omni resists for incursions are 2x t2 invulns, thermal rig, EM amp.

i'm betting with t2 gallente resists you can get 70% omni resists with EM amp, EM rig, and 1x invuln. however there are no t2 resist profile battleships to test that on.

if i put it on an astarte (nearest comparison i can think of, feel free to provide something better for me to test) we get...

edit; woops, totally forgot the DCII

new stats are:
75 em
75 therm
90 kin
69 exp

we're less than 1% shy of 70% explosive resist, giving us 70% omni resists. so in short, yes the extra mid slot does make the difference.

a vindicator's stats with it's standard modules are:
74 em
72 therm
72 kin
77 exp


Test is on HACs...

Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU.
Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU.
Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU.
Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU
(These include Links).

I believe he's running shield, as such EM hardner + DCU falls short (Kronos)
Though if the hardner was a Pith A-type it could work.

I don't use links when setting up resists on my incursion ships, though I know many that do.
Dave stark
#2669 - 2013-09-05 19:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I believe he's running shield, as such EM hardner + DCU falls short (Kronos)


yep, if you want a reason why armour tanks for incursions are bad. ask dark nefarious (or is it darth nefarious? like i care...) he's well versed in the excuses reasons why
blarggg
MuffinMen
#2670 - 2013-09-05 19:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: blarggg
Why not make a PVE module and a PVP module instead of trying to balance it into one?

Also this is more of a side note but removing the resistance profile on the bastion module kinda takes away from it being a bastion.
Quote:
A bastion is an angular structure projecting outward from the curtain wall of an artillery fortification. The fully developed bastion consists of two faces and two flanks with fire from the flanks being able to protect the curtain wall and also the adjacent bastions.[1] It is one element in the style of fortification dominant from the mid 16th to mid 19th centuries. Bastion fortifications offered a greater degree of passive resistance and more scope for ranged defense in the age of gunpowder artillery compared with the medieval fortifications they replaced.
-wiki(Bastion)


fortification -imobile
Greater passive resistance- 30% resist
more scope for ranged defense- optimal and falloff increase

not that im complaining about T2 resists they need that for a long time but i thought using the module to do it was cooler.

Edit: removed my hull tank comment cause i realized it was multiplicative so 72% (not 90%)

also wanted to agree with several people that Web bonus +MJD is kinda counter intuitive.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2671 - 2013-09-05 19:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
maGz wrote:
Haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been suggested: Why not just make the Bastion module the equivalent to both Triage and Siege Modules and control it using scripts. Give us a proper stepping stone to both carriers and dreads (albeit a costful (SP-wise) stepping stone); Triage script with bonus to remote rep range etc., siege script with dmg bonus but tracking penalties etc.. Make the reload of scripts take 5 mins or something, so you have to commit to one or the other. There's probably a ton of flaws with such a module, but it'd be different from the current ambiguous version. Plus it may give us a proper anti-cap ship that isn't another cap.

Just an idea...

here it is again, I'd be rather surprised if the next iteration isn't something along this line

Frankly, that's the easiest way out of this mess for the Devs, and it is consistent with the way such modules work for caps:

Keep T2 Resists, Keep Web/TP bonus

Marauder Module:

Bastion Script: Ewar Immunity, 100% Rep Boost, 20% Resist Boost (see what I did thar, CCP?), 25% Opt/Fal/Vel Boost, 25% Tracking/Exp Vel Boost, Remote Reps Blocked.

Assault Script: Ewar Immunity, 100% Remote Rep Range Boost, 200% Web Range Boost, 25% RoF boost, Remote Reps ALLOWED

Boom, and every motherf**er in this thread is happy.
Cadius Vect
Tenth Plague of Egypt
#2672 - 2013-09-05 19:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cadius Vect
New web bonus makes literally no sense, if the idea is to MJD to 100km them snipe with increased range from the bastion module then why on earth do you need a bonus to webs.

Literally counter-intuitive bonuses, well done...seriously.

Just keep the local tank bonus that allows for 3 slot tanks.

Removing the local tank bonus makes the ship class worse for people who actually own and use them now and have probably spent the ~50 days training marauders lv5.

Ditch the web bonuses, there's other ships for that.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2673 - 2013-09-05 19:53:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Iome Ambraelle wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Both ships can fit the exact same tanking modules. However, when in bastion mode you are immobile. So you will very quickly, as the NPCs come into optimal range, start to receive MAXIMUM damage. Where as with the old version, you remain mobile and can adjust your traversal and range while under AB/MWD for a significant reduction of incoming damage. So really it looks like:


T2 resists.
100km travel time after MJD and range bonus.


I understand that T2 resists offer some benefits. However, if you look at the opening of my post you'll see that i'm talking about rats that a Paladin should be shooting, Sansha/BR. For those specific situations the T2 resists add absolutely nothing to EHP or rep EHP.

I also understand the power of the MJD bonus and how it aligns with the sniper playstyle. I think it's actually quite nice in that role. However again, in my post I'm talking about fitting short range (mega pulse) lasers and do CQ combat with the Paladin. In this scenario the MJD doesn't help other than to gain initial position if the groups are situated nicely around 60-80K away at warp in.

And double active repair.

It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.

Beyond what you need isn't enough. There are several ships that perform beyond necessity but aren't used because others do it better. As I said before, I don't want to have to have bastion(+MJD) just to have a complete competitive ship. T2 resist alone won't give us that. We have 2 examples of where the benefit of those resists are marginalized by factional rat damage output, one of which can't just change to another target without wasting damage into high resists.

And really, given gank > tank, T2 resists still fall short of making the ships competitive. Best case they help RR, and for 2 ships give a minor advantage to what they already had tank wise.

Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.

Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.

If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2674 - 2013-09-05 20:00:31 UTC
perhaps instead of the T2 resist , why not replace it with a flat 20% resist to all like a rattlesnake. ? this way everyone would be happier
Archa4 Badasaz
Vangazhi
#2675 - 2013-09-05 20:04:36 UTC
+MJD
+webs
-tank
???
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2676 - 2013-09-05 20:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ranger 1 wrote:
Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.

Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.

If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss.

If the entire design principle was based around MJD+Bastion then the ships are still flawed. No web range bonus means in "proper use" the webs go unused since you should be blapping anything before it gets in range. Yet we get this in place of the native tank bonus which complemented the bastion. The resists help with RR, but again, that isn't proper use since it negates the possibility of using the bastion. So by your logic incursions and RR strategies in high end DED's/WH's wasn't intended. You say I want an OP ship, yet the only place this will perform as intended is in solo, unkillable mission brick mode with a single configuration.

Edit: To clarify, an unkillable brick at ranges where an unkillable brick tank isn't needed. Though you can drop the MJD, and thus get your web usage back, but now you are either completely immobile or slow enough to still feel immobile.
Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2677 - 2013-09-05 20:05:06 UTC
As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it. Big smile
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2678 - 2013-09-05 20:06:50 UTC
Periapsis Retrograde Burn wrote:
As I am currently in heavy theorycrafting mode, does anyone know if the Bastion bonuses to optimal and falloff are stacking penalized? The longer I look at the prospect of a 70ish km optimal on a Tachy-Paladin, the more I like it. Big smile

Not at the expense of making it a glass cannon. I'll take a half loaf, but only if they aren't also stealing my cheese.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#2679 - 2013-09-05 20:09:44 UTC
Archa4 Badasaz wrote:
+MJD
+webs
-tank
???

no profit? Sad

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ewersmen
Perkone
Caldari State
#2680 - 2013-09-05 20:16:00 UTC
Maaloc wrote:
And I can't help myself from saying that: are you this low on creativity? Let's give a siege module to all the ships in the game!


I like what this guy said .....^^^^

Wtf do I need webbers on my golem are you ******** .....F*u*c*K ccp just make another bs for you ******** bastion mode .

Gonna sell mine before there stuffed'

To many figjams on this thread