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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2261 - 2013-09-04 23:16:39 UTC
Forum warriors, go to bed!

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Jedediah Arndtz
Jedediah Arndtz Corporation
#2262 - 2013-09-04 23:24:00 UTC
So the bastion still gives a range bonus, and all the marauders get a velocity bonus to webs (that are by nature short-range), that probably won't get used outside of the Kronos. The Golem already has a paint bonus, does it *really* need a web bonus too?
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#2263 - 2013-09-04 23:24:03 UTC
I feel the double-whammy nerf to bastion tank performance is bad. Removing the active tanking bonus in exchange for a resist bonus is fine, but coupling that with the removal of the Bastion resist bonus is a bit much. Between these two changes the latest change to the idea you announced is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 40% decrease in Bastioned tanking power, as well as an overall reduction in active tank even out of Bastion. The web bonus is quite nice but these changes together are not something I'm a fan of.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#2264 - 2013-09-04 23:24:26 UTC
slapping a 7.5% / level web velocity bonus on each of these because of a bunch of crybabies on the forum seems pretty lazy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2265 - 2013-09-04 23:29:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec.


Solve this and suddenly they'll sell like hot cakes...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sianca
Spessart Rebellen
#2266 - 2013-09-04 23:29:11 UTC
Hanna Cyrus wrote:
Please. it's still one ship class to balance with one application, which is designed for.

Here a a few group of people, who wants a perfect mission runner for Lvl4, the next group want a perfect ship for incursion, the next a perfect plex/anno runner and so on... and an other group wants to make these ship class a viable PVP ship.

Now, what stay this class for? One ship class can't be over the top in all disciplines!

I for myself enjoy Marauders how are they now, a little fixing here and there and it's ok.

But i like the idea of a "modus" the ship performs in an other way, what i dont't like is the sitting duck idea.
I think we shouldn't get lost in details. Lets them do there Job, they done mostly good rebalancing, trsust them, let us test then und then we can constructive criticism them.

I'm lucky to be not the one, who has to rebalance this class.


100% my thoughts, calm down - the whole thread looks to me like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjVWXJfhh0M&feature=related
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2267 - 2013-09-04 23:35:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The ships still need a way to not become a 1b+ KM every time they enter low sec.

'immune to cynos' might be difficult to implement :P
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#2268 - 2013-09-04 23:36:21 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
I feel the double-whammy nerf to bastion tank performance is bad. Removing the active tanking bonus in exchange for a resist bonus is fine, but coupling that with the removal of the Bastion resist bonus is a bit much. Between these two changes the latest change to the idea you announced is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 40% decrease in Bastioned tanking power, as well as an overall reduction in active tank even out of Bastion. The web bonus is quite nice but these changes together are not something I'm a fan of.


This was posted earlier:

Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s
New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s

Just for fun

Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s
Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s[/quote]

Jedediah Arndtz wrote:
So the bastion still gives a range bonus, and all the marauders get a velocity bonus to webs (that are by nature short-range), that probably won't get used outside of the Kronos. The Golem already has a paint bonus, does it *really* need a web bonus too?


I don't remember where I saw the thread a few months ago but I was trying to determine the perfect rapier fit considering it has both a web bonus and a target painter bonus. I want to say the web was as effective as 2 target painters considering applied dps. Don't be naive to think torps won't hit a target because it isn't painted. Slap a 82% web on something and your results may be the same if not better.

Maybe everyone will need to change up their npc target calling since the web will allow you to blap any npc within 1k.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#2269 - 2013-09-04 23:38:35 UTC
Sianca wrote:

100% my thoughts, calm down - the whole thread looks to me like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjVWXJfhh0M&feature=related


This made me smile, +1 Big smile

Maybe it would help if CCP told us what role htey are trying to fill? Be it kiting or brawling, since the MJD bonus and Bastion Mode seem to be opposing roles.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#2270 - 2013-09-04 23:42:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


OMG no. Tech 2 resist on BS is a horrible idea. They need to be relatively weak when out of Bastion, and stronger/more self reliant using the module. This game needs fewer ships with logistic friendly resistances, and more ship classes with roles. This is exactly what you did for the ship before caving to the masses of stupidity.
Darkwolf
#2271 - 2013-09-04 23:43:03 UTC
Very disappointed with this second iteration. Let's compare ship bonuses live on TQ with the ship bonuses being proposed, and examine the differences. Of not, you're NOT really exchanging the local rep bonus for a web bonus, because of other changes that got made.

OLD

PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 5% energy damage
GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% shield rep, 10% target painter
KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 7.5% hybrid tracking
VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% shield boost, 7.5% projectile tracking


NEW

PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% energy optimal, 5% energy damage
GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% web velocity, 10% target painter
KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 7.5% web velocity, 10% hybrid falloff, 7.5% hybrid tracking
VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% projectile tracking

CHANGES

PALADIN: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% energy optimal
GOLEM: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity
KRONOS: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% hybrid falloff
VARGUR: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity

So, the two ships (Paladin/Kronos) that already had web bonuses get their bonus nerfed, and get their local tank bonus converted to a range bonus of some type. The two ships that did not have a web bonus lose their rep bonus and get a web bonus.

Now, here's where things get ludicrous. The two ships that lost their rep bonus and gained a web bonus they didn't have before are the ones that have the greatest need of mid slots - the Golem and Vargur (both shield tanks). The two ships that had their web velocity nerfed gained damage range in the types that are most useful for them.

The Golem in particular is disappointing. We now have a propulsion system which moves in units of 100km (MJD), a tractor beam bonus which works out to 40km, a web bonus which works out to 12km, and a weapon system which is either 35-40km or lock range. There is a severe lack of focus going on here.

And as for T2 resists... The Golem/Kronos have it easy in that regard because they get tank bonuses that are best versus their racial type (kinetic/thermal). Course, you're screwed if you fight EM/THE rats in your shield-tanking Golem with no resist bonuses.... The Paladin on the other hand receives NO resist bonuses fighting their racial type (EM/THE) since it will get T2 resists in KIN/EXP. Admittedly, those are typically the two weakest types for armor, but again the extreme focus of T2 resists tends to skew those ship's effectiveness in PVE.

To be honest, I preferred the changes a lot more when we were just talking Bastion module, and not talking about wrecking all the bonuses on all the hulls too.

These things are already inferior to T1 pirate hulls, is it really necessary to make them even worse?
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2272 - 2013-09-04 23:44:11 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Repeat after me: mini-dreads are a dumb idea.

I've been saying this for what feels like months and now when presented with the opportunity to get a mini dread people are saying that it's a bad idea. like what I've been saying all along...

wake up and smell the roses people..


So don't fly it. Fly a pirate battleship. Sell your Marauder and get on with your life.


I don't fly marauders ---- I CAN fly them, but I don't because they're mediocre and the changes listed here is set to make them worse.
MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#2273 - 2013-09-04 23:47:08 UTC
Darkwolf wrote:
Very disappointed with this second iteration. Let's compare ship bonuses live on TQ with the ship bonuses being proposed, and examine the differences. Of not, you're NOT really exchanging the local rep bonus for a web bonus, because of other changes that got made.

OLD

PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 5% energy damage
GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% shield rep, 10% target painter
KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 10% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep, 7.5% hybrid tracking
VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% shield boost, 7.5% projectile tracking


NEW

PALADIN: 5% capacitor, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% energy optimal, 5% energy damage
GOLEM: 10% missile velocity, 5% missile explosion velocity, 7.5% web velocity, 10% target painter
KRONOS: 5% hybrid damage, 7.5% web velocity, 10% hybrid falloff, 7.5% hybrid tracking
VARGUR: 5% projectile ROF, 10% projectile falloff, 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% projectile tracking

CHANGES

PALADIN: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% energy optimal
GOLEM: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity
KRONOS: 10% web velocity -> 7.5% web velocity, 7.5% armor rep -> 7.5% hybrid falloff
VARGUR: 7.5% shield rep -> 7.5% web velocity

So, the two ships (Paladin/Kronos) that already had web bonuses get their bonus nerfed, and get their local tank bonus converted to a range bonus of some type. The two ships that did not have a web bonus lose their rep bonus and get a web bonus.

Now, here's where things get ludicrous. The two ships that lost their rep bonus and gained a web bonus they didn't have before are the ones that have the greatest need of mid slots - the Golem and Vargur (both shield tanks). The two ships that had their web velocity nerfed gained damage range in the types that are most useful for them.

The Golem in particular is disappointing. We now have a propulsion system which moves in units of 100km (MJD), a tractor beam bonus which works out to 40km, a web bonus which works out to 12km, and a weapon system which is either 35-40km or lock range. There is a severe lack of focus going on here.

And as for T2 resists... The Golem/Kronos have it easy in that regard because they get tank bonuses that are best versus their racial type (kinetic/thermal). Course, you're screwed if you fight EM/THE rats in your shield-tanking Golem with no resist bonuses.... The Paladin on the other hand receives NO resist bonuses fighting their racial type (EM/THE) since it will get T2 resists in KIN/EXP. Admittedly, those are typically the two weakest types for armor, but again the extreme focus of T2 resists tends to skew those ship's effectiveness in PVE.

To be honest, I preferred the changes a lot more when we were just talking Bastion module, and not talking about wrecking all the bonuses on all the hulls too.

These things are already inferior to T1 pirate hulls, is it really necessary to make them even worse?


furthermore, you removed choice for why to use bastion mode an why not to use it...

The only thing that needed fixing before was the spool up time on MJD's and the imbalance between shield and armor repairers.... beyond those 2 things, the 1st iteration was pretty unique and cool... this new idea is just a joke.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#2274 - 2013-09-04 23:47:16 UTC
I was so exited about the initial batch of changes... the update kind of put a damper on that :S
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2275 - 2013-09-04 23:50:45 UTC
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2276 - 2013-09-04 23:51:35 UTC
That's it, I'm going back to my Tengu (until they **** it up too).
Seriously, this is beyond full r e t a r d at this point.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dolph Carebear
Adohivatal
#2277 - 2013-09-04 23:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolph Carebear
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Maybe it would help if CCP told us what role htey are trying to fill? Be it kiting or brawling, since the MJD bonus and Bastion Mode seem to be opposing roles.


I think that's the crux of the issue.

It certainly appears to me that they're changing things for change's sake.

1. "We should do something about Marauders."

2. "This is something."

3. "Therefore we should do it."

Maybe let someone with a vision near the drawing board?

My $0.02 is that Bastion kind of sounds cool as a basic idea, but PVE definitely doesn't need more tank, and no RR means no PVP applicability. Now if it worked like siege on dreads, that'd be different... But that's just my own agenda. (At least I have one.)
zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2278 - 2013-09-04 23:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: zbaaca
in 5 min i got sketch of what marauders must be. keepin' racial differences and philosophy. no useless bonuses, every 1 is good for both PvE and PvP (well maybe exept pally cap)

paladin
bs
5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level (i think adding tracking here will be op)
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range per level
m
4% bonus to all armour resistances per level
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level

golem
bs
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
m
4% bonus to all shield resistances
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level(or maybe just 5% raw damage)

kronos
bs
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage per level
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level
m
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems per level

varg
bs
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level
m
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level

just balance that mini triage ffs

if u like it just post link to this post until yitterbium sees it

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2279 - 2013-09-04 23:56:11 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

So basically waste more slots on tank, which ruins the point of using a marauder. That was the draw of a tanking bonus, to use fewer slots for tank. If a change negates that, it's not a good change for the ship so far as PvE is concerned.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2280 - 2013-09-04 23:58:02 UTC
The bastion module isn't the issue here, if it was a general purpose module for brawling ships (and only severely reduced mobility instead of crippling it) then it would be better

Instead you get this juxtaposition where the MJD compels you to zip away and snipe while the bastion compels you to brawl. See the other marauder thread on front page for a couple of alternative modes/modules.

IMO if they're seriously going to pursue this horrible bastion mode thingie they should at least provide it's intuitive alternative ie an actual siege module.