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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Nick Parker
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1881 - 2013-09-04 04:45:01 UTC
I like the idea of a marauder being able to use a MJD more effectively, but Bastion mode? Really? It would serve no purpose at all. Even if you can jump 100KM away from a hostile, (who will be screaming in corp chat I've got a marauder tackled) a single frigate can run up and tank your drones and you wont be able to do squat. So, you come out of BS mode, only to get tackled and loose a bill+ ship. And as many others have sad, god help you if a dread happens by.

Marauders have never served a role in eve, other than level 4 missioning. They were nerfed from the outset because of the fear of power creep inherent in T2. I think they were made just to please mission runners, and with the advent of the Noctis, they had no purpose.

How often do you see marauders in PVP anyways? Aside from the cost of, their bonuses were never that good. Basically, it was a top tier BS, with a web bonus or target painter bonus, with a tier 2 BS skin.

Marauders should be able to raid enemy territory, not turn into some sort of anime inspired weapon platform. Strip the tractor beam bonus for the MJD bonus, strip the crippling sensor strength penalty, and give them a defined role. Nerf their tank, but increase their damage and tracking to compensate. Or give them a huge increase in tank, but slow them down.

CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.

I'm rambling at this point, but no micro siege mobile suit bastion crud. Please.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1882 - 2013-09-04 04:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
Regardless of how idiotic I think these proposed changes are, CCP should have a long hard look at the skills required to fly a Marauder, compared to any other BS class ship.

I not going to jump onto EveMon, or even ingame now, and I know some enterprising soul will dig up the answer precisely, but for my trade alt (no spaceship command skills of note, or proper implants), needs 130 days of training just to climb into a Marauder, and that is just level 1 of a level 10 skill. So tack on who knows what for that. THEN tack on ANOTHER level 8 skill for the Bastion module. THEN tack on another level 5 skills to operate the MJD, which apparently crucial now to gain the range to target NPC's properly.

Now let's look at a Vindicator, or Nightmare, same character.
Looks like 7 days to get two racial BS skills to 1, which is a level 8 skill.

I am not going to work out the precise numbers, but the skill path to maxing out a dual race BS to V is way way shorter than getting the Marauder and all attendant skills to V.

So bottom line, if someone is willing to put in a huge amount more training for a ship, it damn well better outperform a counterpart, and from what we are seeing here, the new stats don't even come close to that.

And CCP, don't take this as a suggestion to nerf the faction BS's, even though I know your "rebalance" team is dying to do just that.

**** Edited for content **** (ISD Flidais)
Cade Windstalker
#1883 - 2013-09-04 04:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Nick Parker wrote:
I like the idea of a marauder being able to use a MJD more effectively, but Bastion mode? Really? It would serve no purpose at all. Even if you can jump 100KM away from a hostile, (who will be screaming in corp chat I've got a marauder tackled) a single frigate can run up and tank your drones and you wont be able to do squat. So, you come out of BS mode, only to get tackled and loose a bill+ ship. And as many others have sad, god help you if a dread happens by.

Marauders have never served a role in eve, other than level 4 missioning. They were nerfed from the outset because of the fear of power creep inherent in T2. I think they were made just to please mission runners, and with the advent of the Noctis, they had no purpose.

How often do you see marauders in PVP anyways? Aside from the cost of, their bonuses were never that good. Basically, it was a top tier BS, with a web bonus or target painter bonus, with a tier 2 BS skin.

Marauders should be able to raid enemy territory, not turn into some sort of anime inspired weapon platform. Strip the tractor beam bonus for the MJD bonus, strip the crippling sensor strength penalty, and give them a defined role. Nerf their tank, but increase their damage and tracking to compensate. Or give them a huge increase in tank, but slow them down.

CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.

I'm rambling at this point, but no micro siege mobile suit bastion crud. Please.


Congrats you have completely missed the point of the hull and CCP's proposal.

For reference:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.

We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.

........

The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.


Emphasis mine.

Everything you are complaining about is working as intended. Skill intensive is not a good reason to have a Battleship class version of HAC. If you want high damage ships with less tank the Pirate Battleships are that way Arrow
MBizon Osis
Doomheim
#1884 - 2013-09-04 04:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Flidais Asagiri
Octoven
"Essentially you are making a mini dread at a fraction of the cost and this is good how? To be honest, whats the deal with the MJD bonuses, are there seriously not enough people using your new mod that you have to stick it on T2s? The ships would have been a lot more useful retaining other bonuses such as sensor damp, web, tracking disrupt....stuff that really makes pvp nice. MJD may be a valid tactical module; however, they are pointless if you are fit to brawl in CQ with another BS. I would think your whole, "taking it our of one specific use and giving it other uses" would apply here as well. If you truly want that, then take the MJD bonus back off and put the other bonuses on.
The whole idea of the mini-dread seems **** all ridiculous to me. I was really surprised you guys actually went all out to make us think it was going to be a proper re balance. Most were thinking of minor/major changes to bonuses and such like the other ships were, not redesigning the whole bloody ship. I would suggest taking these changes and applying them toward a future NEW T2 BS class :p "

Ganthrithor
"Siege mode is unnecessary for PvE since power-creep has already made ratting stupidly easy in just about any mostly-fit PvE ship. It has zero usefulness for PvP applications since nobody is going to pay a billion isk to play a game of "warp in at 100, siege, get scrammed, not-be-able-to-MJD-away."I'm really confused about this whole thread-- these ships won't be meaningfully better for PvE (they don't do more damage, and other ships can already tank sites just fine) and their gimmick feature will be useless for PvP.
Bottom line: go back to the drawing board and come up with a concept for these ships that lives up to their class name."

I like the ideas that these guys have of taking these MicroJumpy/mini-dreds and forming another T2 calss altogether and with minor buffs(sensor strength, more drones, noctis like bonuses, and T2 resists) leave the marauder class as is. This new type of ship might be the bomb. I am not hating on it or new content by any means. It's the 'we have a completely new concept and are trading out a working ship class and replacing it with a unknown and unasked for ship type. Again I ask CCP is it so hard to make a new class of ship for these new mods and concepts? Don't you the devs have the ability to create new content with out destroying in-game ship classes and calling it a re balance? (see hulk and now the marauders)




Dinsdale Pirannha

"Meyr, it is a waste of time even discussing this.
The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE.
He is used to massive moon goo as income, and has zero use for anyone who grinds to pay for anything. (This is the same guy who said on the forums that anyone who did not vote in the CSM elections he does not have to listen to)
This is the same guy who wrecked small and heavy drones in missions, and ignored over 100 pages of people screaming how bad an idea it was, (and still is). He will ignore any feedback on this, just as he does about any PvE mechanic.
I use a Paladin in Incursions, and it is losing about 8% DPS(120 DPS lost from going from 3 Garde II"s to 1), its ability to web frigates in close (2 webs at 90% effectiveness slowed down a ship to 1% of its base speed, now it will be 16%, a 16 fold drop in effectiveness). The improvement in optimal range? Who ******* cares? I was already shooting stuff in optimal at 20 km with a properly fit Paladin. Further, it will be impossible to micromanage the timing on that bastion module (60-64 seconds minimum timer) to have it time out the precise moment the incursion finishes, so we will have entire fleets sitting their holding their manparts, while all the timers run out, before moving to the next site, hence another big loss in ISK/hour.
When you factor in the 30 plus % nerf to armour bonuses , and the 30 plus % nerf to web range bonuses next week, and THEN the loss of the OGB (which the pandemic legion guy has guaranteed is happening soon), anyone using a Paladin or Kronos in an Incursion is righteously screwed in armour incursion fleets.

**** EDITED FOR RUMOR See Rule 31**** (ISD Flidais)

(btw, listen to the Crossing Zebra's industry podcast near the end where one of the goon CSM members says that the moon goo drop in prices is a temporary thing)"

Who is this?( "The pandemic legion guy is involved in wrecking this ship class, and he HATES PvE.")? Is this the same as the cap nerfs, no amount of reason will change their minds. Is this what you mean? Or is it some thing else?
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1885 - 2013-09-04 05:06:40 UTC
Nick Parker wrote:
CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.

You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons.
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1886 - 2013-09-04 05:22:43 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Regardless of how idiotic I think these proposed changes are, CCP should have a long hard look at the skills required to fly a Marauder, compared to any other BS class ship.

I not going to jump onto EveMon, or even ingame now, and I know some enterprising soul will dig up the answer precisely, but for my trade alt (no spaceship command skills of note, or proper implants), needs 130 days of training just to climb into a Marauder, and that is just level 1 of a level 10 skill. So tack on who knows what for that. THEN tack on ANOTHER level 8 skill for the Bastion module. THEN tack on another level 5 skills to operate the MJD, which apparently crucial now to gain the range to target NPC's properly.

Now let's look at a Vindicator, or Nightmare, same character.
Looks like 7 days to get two racial BS skills to 1, which is a level 8 skill.

I am not going to work out the precise numbers, but the skill path to maxing out a dual race BS to V is way way shorter than getting the Marauder and all attendant skills to V.

So bottom line, if someone is willing to put in a huge amount more training for a ship, it damn well better outperform a counterpart, and from what we are seeing here, the new stats don't even come close to that.

And CCP, don't take this as a suggestion to nerf the **** out of faction BS's, even though I know your "rebalance" team is dying to do just that.


+1
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1887 - 2013-09-04 05:25:05 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Nick Parker wrote:
CCP why the fear of Marauders outdamaging pirate BS? They are more skill intensive, a higher tech level, and should outdamage them.

You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons.


yeah, if only this proposal showed that marauders would have their own role.

The problem is any role you suggest for them, they are outclassed by ships of equal cost but less training time - Especially if used in groups of more than 1
Jaded Sky
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1888 - 2013-09-04 05:53:28 UTC
Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1889 - 2013-09-04 06:45:29 UTC
Jaded Sky wrote:
Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens.


what the .. are you on about? Have you even been in some fleet.. at all.. in any?!

ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1890 - 2013-09-04 06:49:21 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Regardless of how idiotic I think these proposed changes are, CCP should have a long hard look at the skills required to fly a Marauder, compared to any other BS class ship.

I not going to jump onto EveMon, or even ingame now, and I know some enterprising soul will dig up the answer precisely, but for my trade alt (no spaceship command skills of note, or proper implants), needs 130 days of training just to climb into a Marauder, and that is just level 1 of a level 10 skill. So tack on who knows what for that. THEN tack on ANOTHER level 8 skill for the Bastion module. THEN tack on another level 5 skills to operate the MJD, which apparently crucial now to gain the range to target NPC's properly.

Now let's look at a Vindicator, or Nightmare, same character.
Looks like 7 days to get two racial BS skills to 1, which is a level 8 skill.

I am not going to work out the precise numbers, but the skill path to maxing out a dual race BS to V is way way shorter than getting the Marauder and all attendant skills to V.

So bottom line, if someone is willing to put in a huge amount more training for a ship, it damn well better outperform a counterpart, and from what we are seeing here, the new stats don't even come close to that.

And CCP, don't take this as a suggestion to nerf the **** out of faction BS's, even though I know your "rebalance" team is dying to do just that.


+1


+1
Jaded Sky
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1891 - 2013-09-04 07:14:55 UTC
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Jaded Sky wrote:
Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens.


what the .. are you on about? Have you even been in some fleet.. at all.. in any?!

ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats.


Ignoring the childish jab. Everyone uses and will continue to use pirate battleships unless they make marauders into better pirate battleships which continues down the old route that CCP is trying to avoid by having different roles/niches for ships. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that by using the MJD properly you can pop 100km away and pop any pesky frigs and still have insane range while in combat mode to deal with anything else, as far as I can tell they will perform the level 4 role quite well if not better because of the siege modes allowing freed up slots for more deeps/enhancers/range/etc.

Diversity is good, and I want to see more.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1892 - 2013-09-04 07:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Jaded Sky wrote:
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
Jaded Sky wrote:
Looking forward to this change. I do think some tweaking is still required but overall I like it. I feel like people complaining are stuck on the idea that the Marauder should only be for PvE or that it should be just a giant EHP/DPS generic ship. At least this opens up an interesting possibility for fleets, etc. Even large scale fleets just using the MJD exclusively could theoretically work given the increased cool downs. Will be interesting to see what happens.


what the .. are you on about? Have you even been in some fleet.. at all.. in any?!

ppl are just mad because them marauders were only lvl4 boats and now they will be even worse lvl4 boats.


Ignoring the childish jab. Everyone uses and will continue to use pirate battleships unless they make marauders into better pirate battleships which continues down the old route that CCP is trying to avoid by having different roles/niches for ships. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that by using the MJD properly you can pop 100km away and pop any pesky frigs and still have insane range while in combat mode to deal with anything else, as far as I can tell they will perform the level 4 role quite well if not better because of the siege modes allowing freed up slots for more deeps/enhancers/range/etc.

Diversity is good, and I want to see more.


It's not childish jab.. it's me asking very emotionally because I feel the lack of knowledge and knowhow from alot of ppl who will lead ccp to do stupid *******!

there is no place in pvp for 1bil+ marauder, who the hell would take kronos over vindi??? and why? kronos loses web bonus also.

because of bastion bling bling mjd paow paow anime transformation thingie? NO!


also talking about pve.. they wont be used in incursions.
and no sane person will use bastion mode in lvl4 mission because you have gates to travel and today all marauders tank more than enough - while pimping fit you could permatank random mission forever.

also it's easier to get into imba pirate ship and still do missions alot faster.
Cade Windstalker
#1893 - 2013-09-04 07:23:42 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
You must have missed the handy chart that CCP put out. Every ship is supposed to have its own role without obsoleting other ships, except for pirate ships which will just be strictly better at all times because reasons.


Not strictly better, just more of a general progression from T1 without any outright specialization. Right now I'd bet they're going to be like Attack Battleships. Less tank that Marauders, no special bonuses, a bit more gank and speed.

Battle Cube wrote:
yeah, if only this proposal showed that marauders would have their own role.

The problem is any role you suggest for them, they are outclassed by ships of equal cost but less training time - Especially if used in groups of more than 1


I would wait for the re-balance on that >.>

And it's actually not significantly less training time to use at equal effectiveness. For a Pirate Battleship to be "maxed" you need the same support and weapons skills as a Marauder, in some cases more like with the Rattlesnake. You also need 2 Battleship skills to 5, where as with Marauders you need 1 BS to 5 and then Marauders to 5.

Except that you only need to train that once and you have access to any Marauder you have BS 5 for so when you have all 5 BS skills the difference comes out to about a month between the Bastion mod and Marauders 5 on a plan optimized for Marauders.

Beyond that Pirate ships are pretty much next up on the block, either before, after or at the same time as the Black-Ops Battleships. Since we've got 2 more balancing devs who currently don't have active threads my bet would be that in about a week or two when they get back from vacation we'll see a Black Ops and some version of a Pirate ships thread (given the other Battleship hulls being on the block they may start with battleships rather than frigates)
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#1894 - 2013-09-04 07:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Paladin and Kronos have to keep the webifier bonus.
That's the bonus that makes these ships usable.
If you remove web bonus, why does golem keep it's painting bonus ?

If golem is keeping painting bonus, kronos and paladin should be keeping webing bonus.
If web bonus is too overpowered for new "siege" mode, then remove ability to use webs and painters while in that "siege" mode.

Simple Enough ?

I also don't see a reason for reducing drone bay, as marauders can only have like 75mbit/s drones ( 3 heavy drones ).
If drones are overpowered when in "siege" mode, remove ability to use them while in that mode.
Cade Windstalker
#1895 - 2013-09-04 07:52:00 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Paladin and Kronos have to keep the webifier bonus.
That's the bonus that makes these ships usable.
If you remove web bonus, why does golem keep it's painting bonus ?

If golem is keeping painting bonus, kronos and paladin should be keeping webing bonus.
If web bonus is too overpowered for new "siege" mode, then remove ability to use webs and painters while in that "siege" mode.


Because the web bonuses are hilariously OP?

With one web you do what any other ship needs 2-3 webs for and with 2 webs you bring someone down to 1% velocity.

Just the fact that *one bonus* is what makes the ship worth using says that this bonus is probably too powerful. No, not for new siege mode but period.

Don't get me wrong, I love using it and having it on my side, but if you get caught by even a single 90% web you're screwed and that's a bit OP. Doubly so since that probably also means that you're scrammed which means your one option is an Afterburner to try and escape. A 90% web brings any ABing frigate except *maybe* an over-sized AB Dramiel under 100m/s. At two you're a sitting target waiting to be F1'd off the field.

I've been playing around with this idea since about three days before the Marauder changes were posted and I realized that all the 90% web ships were yet to be rebalanced and I can't make a good argument to myself for why this bonus is in any way fair or worth keeping around at least on Battleships. Not sure if the Vigilant is going to lose it too but I'm about 60/40 yes.

If you think you have a good argument for keeping the bonus by all means post it, maybe CCP will listen, but I think "That's the only thing making the ship good!!! T_T" is just a tick in the column toward removing it.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#1896 - 2013-09-04 07:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Well then golem should also loose it's painting bonus.
What?

Cade Windstalker wrote:

If you think you have a good argument for keeping the bonus by all means post it, maybe CCP will listen, but I think "That's the only thing making the ship good!!! T_T" is just a tick in the column toward removing it.

Vindicator also has this bonus, and it has insane dps, can use 5 heavy drones and has 11 turrets, paladin only gets 10 turrets.

Comparison:

My Vindicator with t-1 ammo and t-2 drones does (pve fit):
1094 dps

My paladin with t-1 ammo t-2 drones does (pve fit):
691 dps

My Raven navy issue with t-1 ammo and t-1 drones does (pve fit):
884 dps

So marauders are not even close to being over powered.
Lair Osen
#1897 - 2013-09-04 08:04:22 UTC
Golem needs to keep its bonus because of the crappy missile damage application that is at all ranges, so increasing the range does not help dps at all, unlike optimal and falloff.
Cade Windstalker
#1898 - 2013-09-04 08:04:55 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Well then golem should also loose it's painting bonus.
What?


The painting bonus isn't over-powered to the same degree. It lets you hit harder but not as hard as 90% webs and doesn't restrict movement.

Spc One wrote:
Vindicator also has this bonus, and it has insane dps, can use 5 heavy drones and has 11 turrets, paladin only gets 10 turrets.


Yeah, as I pointed out, that's probably going away too. We'll probably know in a week or two when Fozzie and Rise get back from vacation and we find out what they're working on but smart money is on no more Vindi webs.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1899 - 2013-09-04 08:07:55 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Paladin and Kronos have to keep the webifier bonus.
That's the bonus that makes these ships usable.
If you remove web bonus, why does golem keep it's painting bonus ?

If golem is keeping painting bonus, kronos and paladin should be keeping webing bonus.
If web bonus is too overpowered for new "siege" mode, then remove ability to use webs and painters while in that "siege" mode.


Because the web bonuses are hilariously OP?

...


It's interesting that you mention this Cade, because on approx. page 40 of this thread, CCP Ytterbium specifically said that the web bonus "did not significantly increase your chance to hit frigates", which hardly sounds like he thinks it's OP.

I actually responded to that claim, asking him for numeric proof of that statement. No reply has been forthcoming as yet.

Cade face it, I know you speak to someone on the CSM. I know the CSM are overwhelmed and excited by this new transforming marauder, but from what I see in the forums half the player base - particularly people who actually use marauders - hate it.

This bastion-transforming-micro-jumping marauder has got the dev team very excited and they want to push it. I'm sure that's all very nice. Remember that they also got very excited about dressing up space dolls. That resulted in "burn jita", loss of subs and ultimately a public apology by the CEO.

The devs are not always right. Many people think this direction is wrong. It's time for a different proposal for Marauders.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#1900 - 2013-09-04 08:11:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It's interesting that you mention this Cade, because on approx. page 40 of this thread, CCP Ytterbium specifically said that the web bonus "did not significantly increase your chance to hit frigates", which hardly sounds like he thinks it's OP.

That is true.
Also webs are limited to 10km (t-2) so i don't see this bonus as overpowered.
It was fine how many years now ?

Cade Windstalker wrote:

The painting bonus isn't over-powered to the same degree. It lets you hit harder but not as hard as 90% webs and doesn't restrict movement.
.

It is, i can one shot destroyers with t-1 cruise missiles ( all level 5 skills including paining skills and marauders skills + missile skills).
And painter is not limited to 10km, but with falloff you get like 90km.


I also think that this change for marauders is wrong one.
Removing web bonuses is making these ships useless.
Web bonus is here so i can apply more damage to cruisers and battlecruisers, lasers on paladin don't have the tracking of kronos ( blasters track very good + you get bonus from the kronos ship itself + web bonus).

You also have to know that kronos and paladin are limited to damage types ( em/thermal // kinetic/themal ) so killing an angel frigate is not so easy with em lasers.