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Orca change : +1 High Slot
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Dave Stark
#41 - 2013-09-01 13:20:17 UTC
Loyal Follower wrote:
This additional 4th High Slot will provide us the ability to trade-off between max links and less tractor (3 links + 1 tractor) and the other end (max tractor and less links: 4 tractors, 3 tractors + 1 link etc).


the current 3 high slots lets you do this.

you just want an extra link and/or tractor beam. so no. if you want a tractor beam give something up for it. adding more slots to remove choice is a terrible idea.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#42 - 2013-09-01 16:22:16 UTC
Typical pubbie squalling. Wants everything, wants to give nothing for it.

They should go ahead and give it the fourth high slot. And then remove the Orca's continued ability to boost from inside the POS forcefield, since you can't really be tractoring cans too effectively from the POS, several AU from the belt.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-09-01 16:50:06 UTC
i'll say it again. No other ship has to make the major trade-offs and choices like the orca does. not a single other ship. Not a single boosting ship and not a single tractor bonused ship. There doesn't need to be such a major tradeoff for it to perform its roles. And if the are ever going to get these things on field, this is one of many necessary changes that has to be implemented.
Dave Stark
#44 - 2013-09-01 16:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Rowells wrote:
i'll say it again. No other ship has to make the major trade-offs and choices like the orca does. not a single other ship. Not a single boosting ship and not a single tractor bonused ship. There doesn't need to be such a major tradeoff for it to perform its roles. And if the are ever going to get these things on field, this is one of many necessary changes that has to be implemented.


remind me again how you're going to fit a full rack of guns and three links on a command ship after the 3rd of september?

i thought so; other ships do have to make tradeoffs.

not to mention, if you're using all 3 links you don't need a tractor beam. warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-09-01 17:00:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


remind me again how you're going to fit a full rack of guns and three links on a command ship after the 3rd of september?

i thought so; other ships do have to make tradeoffs.

not to mention, if you're using all 3 links you don't need a tractor beam. warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range.

You can still fit 4 guns with full rack of links right? It's not the HUGE tradeoff i was looking for. Try again.
Dave Stark
#46 - 2013-09-01 17:03:55 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


remind me again how you're going to fit a full rack of guns and three links on a command ship after the 3rd of september?

i thought so; other ships do have to make tradeoffs.

not to mention, if you're using all 3 links you don't need a tractor beam. warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range.

You can still fit 4 guns with full rack of links right? It's not the HUGE tradeoff i was looking for. Try again.


and sacrificing 1 link for a tractor beam isn't a huge trade off either.

try again.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-09-01 17:11:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


remind me again how you're going to fit a full rack of guns and three links on a command ship after the 3rd of september?

i thought so; other ships do have to make tradeoffs.

not to mention, if you're using all 3 links you don't need a tractor beam. warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range.

You can still fit 4 guns with full rack of links right? It's not the HUGE tradeoff i was looking for. Try again.


and sacrificing 1 link for a tractor beam isn't a huge trade off either.

try again.

if i could fit 3 tractors and 2 links i would agree but i can't so no. If they had said in the Command ship rebalance thread that to fit 3 links you would have to take off all the guns, what do you think the response would have been? not very happy i'll tell you that right now. However it makes perfect sense for an Industrial command ship to have to do exactly what i just mentioned. And also unlike the command ships the orca doesn't have highslots where it can fit extra links like every other boosting ship can.

Try again.

Quote:
not to mention, if you're using all 3 links you don't need a tractor beam. warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range


You haven't been into a belt recently have you? or flown any of the barges? because that statement is just nothing but wrong.
Dave Stark
#48 - 2013-09-01 17:18:23 UTC
Rowells wrote:
You haven't been into a belt recently have you? or flown any of the barges? because that statement is just nothing but wrong.


if you think it's incorrect that means you've clearly never mined in your life and shouldn't be discussing mining related changes anyway.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-09-01 17:29:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Rowells wrote:
You haven't been into a belt recently have you? or flown any of the barges? because that statement is just nothing but wrong.


if you think it's incorrect that means you've clearly never mined in your life and shouldn't be discussing mining related changes anyway.

apparently reaching every asteroid in the belt from 0 is plausible according to you. However when you warp in at 0 you are approx. 10-15km away from any asteroids and the belts tend to stretch 50-75km depending on how it spawned. And in upgraded nullsec systems they get even more rediculously large. with max skills and best boosts you can only mine out to 30 km, and with all of your gang in one spot it wont be long until you have to move those fat ships to the next spot, but wait, you said they could all reach from zero, so nvm,"this belt is done boys, those dozens of other rocks are not really there".

So, no. I have mined and still currently mine, I even boost when i feel like it.

Don't believe me? go ask some of your miner friends if this "warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range" is true. Hell, if you don't even know anyone who mines go to someplace that does it a lot or even go camp some nullsec mining corp and ask them.
Dave Stark
#50 - 2013-09-01 17:33:52 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Rowells wrote:
You haven't been into a belt recently have you? or flown any of the barges? because that statement is just nothing but wrong.


if you think it's incorrect that means you've clearly never mined in your life and shouldn't be discussing mining related changes anyway.

apparently reaching every asteroid in the belt from 0 is plausible according to you. However when you warp in at 0 you are approx. 10-15km away from any asteroids and the belts tend to stretch 50-75km depending on how it spawned. And in upgraded nullsec systems they get even more rediculously large. with max skills and best boosts you can only mine out to 30 km, and with all of your gang in one spot it wont be long until you have to move those fat ships to the next spot, but wait, you said they could all reach from zero, so nvm,"this belt is done boys, those dozens of other rocks are not really there".

So, no. I have mined and still currently mine, I even boost when i feel like it.

Don't believe me? go ask some of your miner friends if this "warp to a belt at 0 and sit on the orca and every rock is in range" is true. Hell, if you don't even know anyone who mines go to someplace that does it a lot or even go camp some nullsec mining corp and ask them.


tip: if you're in those kind of asteroid belts you should be using rorqual boosts so you can have 3x tractors on your orca! oh look, problem solved.

in places where orcas are your only boosting option; all of the asteroid belts are within laser range of the warp in. which means the tractor and the range link are completely interchangable. alternatively, the range of your tractor beam and the base range of a miner is still greater than 70km so you still don't need the range link which means your problem is still solved.

the orca simply doesn't need the 4th high slot.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2013-09-01 17:43:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
in places where orcas are your only boosting option; all of the asteroid belts are within laser range of the warp in. which means the tractor and the range link are completely interchangable. alternatively, the range of your tractor beam and the base range of a miner is still greater than 70km so you still don't need the range link which means your problem is still solved.

This was wrong the last time you said it and it's still wrong 5 minutes later.

And if you haven't noticed Rorquals aren't around much, and even more rarely in belts. the orca is the most viable in belt option availible, even as poor an option it is. The rorqual already has many problems that remove it's effectiveness outside of a POS.

And you still haven't show me a single ship that has to completely sacrifice all of it's turrets in order to boost fully. Orca is still the only one that has to give up 1/3 effectiveness to even begin filling it's other intended role. Find me another ship that can say it sacrifices that much to fill it's intended role.
Dave Stark
#52 - 2013-09-01 17:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Rowells wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
in places where orcas are your only boosting option; all of the asteroid belts are within laser range of the warp in. which means the tractor and the range link are completely interchangable. alternatively, the range of your tractor beam and the base range of a miner is still greater than 70km so you still don't need the range link which means your problem is still solved.

This was wrong the last time you said it and it's still wrong 5 minutes later.

And if you haven't noticed Rorquals aren't around much, and even more rarely in belts. the orca is the most viable in belt option availible, even as poor an option it is. The rorqual already has many problems that remove it's effectiveness outside of a POS.

And you still haven't show me a single ship that has to completely sacrifice all of it's turrets in order to boost fully. Orca is still the only one that has to give up 1/3 effectiveness to even begin filling it's other intended role. Find me another ship that can say it sacrifices that much to fill it's intended role.


i never told you to put a rorqual in a belt, and you don't have to be in a belt to boost.

you still haven't shown me how you're sacrificing anything to boost fully, only one of the three links actually affects yield. 2 of the 3 links are essentially not needed for mining leaving you up to two slots for tractor beams.

i mean; as i pointed out you gain more mining range by using a tractor beam not the range link, and the capacitor link wouldn't be missed if it was removed from the game due to how completely redundant it is. there's no argument for a 4th high slot on the orca other than "i want everything wah wah wah"
Loyal Follower
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-09-01 18:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Loyal Follower
The initial proposition was updated after taken into consideration your comments.

And yes, i agree in removing the ability to boost from inside a POS from both Capital Industrial Ships, but this has to do with re-balancing the ships first. The tractor beam is very minor change and is to be used on the belt.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-09-02 06:25:15 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


i never told you to put a rorqual in a belt, and you don't have to be in a belt to boost.

you still haven't shown me how you're sacrificing anything to boost fully, only one of the three links actually affects yield. 2 of the 3 links are essentially not needed for mining leaving you up to two slots for tractor beams.

i mean; as i pointed out you gain more mining range by using a tractor beam not the range link, and the capacitor link wouldn't be missed if it was removed from the game due to how completely redundant it is.

That's funny:
Quote:
tip: if you're in those kind of asteroid belts you should be using rorqual boosts so you can have 3x tractors on your orca! oh look, problem solved.
And iI have shown you time and time again, yet you seem to completely ignore the fact that unlike other ships which can fully link and still fit ANY module (turret, neut/nos, launcher, etc.) the orca doesn't have this option in any form or fashion. I'll keep saying it until you actually acknowledge that fact and come up with a similar example on ANY other ship. Every single ship that is bonused for links also has highslots for other modules as well. That's all the command ships, battlecruisers, T3's, and capital ships. Find me a ship that only has enough slots to fit the number of bonused links.

.......still looking?

Let me save you the trouble, there are none. This limitation is completely native to the orca and no other ship.
Quote:
there's no argument for a 4th high slot on the orca other than "i want everything wah wah wah"
If you're still confused, please begin reading the posts again until you understand it.
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